Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[Hawkbit]

Yeah, create the quests in detail but just don't tell the player about them isn't really "not making quests", it's just "wasting resources hiding content most players probably wont ever do".

Everquest!

Hidden quests, non-filled-in backstory. Those days were glorious times, my friends.

Actually, I firmly believe that.  While the whole NPC interaction needed updating, I really like that the big yellow ! hadn't been created yet.  I liked them at first, but as I've gotten older I want virtually no fourth wall in my games.  The EQ 'scavenger hunt' style of questing was really cool, even if it did require external help for 98% of the playerbase.  I do miss those days.

[Muffled]

I made a thiefy, assassiny dude. What's the best avenue to improve weapons... enchanting or smithing? I don't really have the patience to do both, and I am already deep into alchemy for poisons. If I want to just dabble in one.... I'm thinking maybe enchanting? That worked pretty well on my abandoned mage.

Definitely think enchanting is the better option for a stealthy character, both for fun and for powering.  Smithing only gets retarded if you're willing to use alchemy and enchanting to work it up.

[lamaros]

Smithing will increase your damage far more than enchanting.

[koro]

100 smithing is the difference between taking out a Dragon Priest in two or three sneak attacks as a melee sneakster, and taking him out in one. Enchanting does precisely diddly squat for damage as daggers can't benefit from +1h damage enchants (which is why other weapons pull ahead of daggers once you start doing some broken high-end recursion effects) and damage enchants don't get multiplied with sneak dice.

I think some pages back I broke down what my damage looked like on my Khajiit sneaker using some decently high smithing and two very-much-not-high-end daggers.

[Jobu]

I think some pages back I broke down what my damage looked like on my Khajiit sneaker using some decently high smithing and two very-much-not-high-end daggers.

So smithing the hell out of a mid-range dagger is the secret to making the 16x dagger perk worth it? Innnnnnteresting.

[lamaros]

I think some pages back I broke down what my damage looked like on my Khajiit sneaker using some decently high smithing and two very-much-not-high-end daggers.

So smithing the hell out of a mid-range dagger is the secret to making the 16x dagger perk worth it? Innnnnnteresting.

Smithing the hell out of a glass or daedric dagger with their perks is way better, but if you only have steel...

[koro]

I think some pages back I broke down what my damage looked like on my Khajiit sneaker using some decently high smithing and two very-much-not-high-end daggers.

So smithing the hell out of a mid-range dagger is the secret to making the 16x dagger perk worth it? Innnnnnteresting.

Smithing the hell out of a glass or daedric dagger with their perks is way better, but if you only have steel...

Right. I was a tight-ass with perks (which ended up not being too necessary), so I only got Steel Smithing and the perk that lets me upgrade enchanted gear. I then stole a set of Skyforge Steel goodies and smithed them up to Legendary; they're as good as Elven, but save you a perk for upgrades and (in my opinion) look nicer to boot. After getting to 100 Smithing, I can pretty much one-shot most things I come across with a sneak attack from a single dagger with the 30x backstab gloves from the Brotherhood, and with a dual non-power attack strike without it.

[rk47]

sigh after all this time everyone still single wield daggers on backstabs? wtf?

base dmg 10.

dual 20

sneak attack perks x16 per.
glove doubles it x32

320 per strike
640 when dual power attack triggered.

On an steel dagger.

[Reborne]

Does Skyrim need a story line?

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/post/152323-storyline-in-skyrim-no-thanks/

Interesting read, I think I agree with most of it.  I often skip most of the quests in Elder Scrolls games anyway, but I think it would be really interesting to see them go with a "questless" game and see what it looks like in earnest.   Then again, the game would likely have a lot of "there is nothing to do in this game" responses

Ok, just want to check that I'm on the right page.
Are they advocating making Skyrim into a complete sandbox and removing all forms of story?
Or are they pushing for storylines to be optional? (including the ability to join a storyline from any point that makes sense)

Everquest!

Hidden quests, non-filled-in backstory. Those days were glorious times, my friends.

Actually, I firmly believe that.  While the whole NPC interaction needed updating, I really like that the big yellow ! hadn't been created yet.  I liked them at first, but as I've gotten older I want virtually no fourth wall in my games.  The EQ 'scavenger hunt' style of questing was really cool, even if it did require external help for 98% of the playerbase.  I do miss those days.

I'd love for stuff like this to be optional.

I'm all for options.
You want to ignore the main point of the game to explore, great.
You only want to do the big stories, it's your game, go for it.
Dis/like the big yellow !  - toggle it to suit your play style.

To me a lot of these things come down to play styles.
I've been running a pen and paper RPG for friends for a long time now and one of the big things that I had to get my head around was that while I enjoy sandboxes and my players love the amount of content in my setting, dumping them somewhere and saying "Do as you please" generally leads to blank stares.
Having a story that gets you started, can be ignored, leads to many points of interest and is only the end of the world when things have gone very wrong/right gives the player a sense of purpose while at the same time the freedom that the article seems to want.

Personally, I'm really enjoying Skyrim how it is (with just a few mods)

[Tebonas]

The storylines are optional, so unless they are retarded (which I suspect they are) thats not what they mean.

[Hawkbit]

I'd love for stuff like this to be optional.

I've been running a pen and paper RPG for friends for a long time now and one of the big things that I had to get my head around was that while I enjoy sandboxes and my players love the amount of content in my setting, dumping them somewhere and saying "Do as you please" generally leads to blank stares.

1. Human beings, like electricity, will take a path of least resistance.  Giving players the option to turn quest makers off means that quest markers will stay on.  Usually, unless you're a punishing sort that plays on hard, with no compass or quest markers (me). 

2.  "Perceived sandbox".  Make them think that they're free, but create a story to push on them regardless of whether they chose the dark alley or the open street.  From there, be flexible with how the story progresses.  Your arc, their choices.

I lament of the old days in EQ, but the fact remains that WoW got popular at least in part because the information was upfront.  To hide all that stuff behind a curtain in a new game would frustrate the new players, which frankly compose a much greater population of paying customers.  It is unfortunate, but what can I do?  Hold out for gems like Demon's/Dark Souls that don't handhold and hope for something new. 

[Muffled]

...and damage enchants don't get multiplied with sneak dice.

Actually wasn't aware of that, intentionally avoided stealth entirely on my first character.  That being the case, yes, enchanting is a waste of time.

[Sheepherder]

Not really.  I'd take smithing if it was one or the other, but enchanting is lovely for pretty much everyone.  Enchants scale better with faster weapons over longer fights (dragons?), resist gear is valuable if you can carry it, weapon damage isn't the only skill you can buff, carry weight/health/stamina are all useful, and you can make a shitton of money off of enchanting crap even if you don't care to powerlevel it.

(especially if you don't care to powerlevel it )

[Lantyssa]

Doing both enchanting and smithing is easier than most other combos since you can make a ton of daggers then go enchant them all.

[Miasma]

And then sell them for absurd amounts of money.  The banish enchant increases value the most.

[koro]

sigh after all this time everyone still single wield daggers on backstabs? wtf?

base dmg 10.

dual 20

sneak attack perks x16 per.
glove doubles it x32

320 per strike
640 when dual power attack triggered.

On an steel dagger.

I usually use dual daggers. I was just using a single dagger as an example because I could do dual dagger-worthy damage using a single dagger with 100 Smithing.

[Soln]

I've been a stealth archer for most of the game until the part of the Epic quest when I got into the part where  <spoiler> you temporarily lose all your stuff, I wished to hell I had me some daggers.   I keep a spare set with me at all times.

Daedra weapons + legendary upgrades + 2 enchants = OMY

[Sheepherder]

Due to the way base regen is calculated the Fortify Health/Stamina Regen effects are inferior to the Fortify Health/Stamina enchants until you have at least more than 200 health/stamina.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I've been a stealth archer for most of the game until the part of the Epic quest when I got into the part where  <spoiler> you temporarily lose all your stuff, I wished to hell I had me some daggers.   I keep a spare set with me at all times.

Daedra weapons + legendary upgrades + 2 enchants = OMY

I ended up storing all my important things EXCEPT arrows on my archer. It was, unfortunate

[Azazel]

1. Human beings, like electricity, will take a path of least resistance.  Giving players the option to turn quest makers off means that quest markers will stay on.  Usually, unless you're a punishing sort that plays on hard, with no compass or quest markers (me).  

I lament of the old days in EQ, but the fact remains that WoW got popular at least in part because the information was upfront.  To hide all that stuff behind a curtain in a new game would frustrate the new players, which frankly compose a much greater population of paying customers.  It is unfortunate, but what can I do?  Hold out for gems like Demon's/Dark Souls that don't handhold and hope for something new.  

As someone who played EQ for many, many years, I can comfortably say "Fuck EQ". What was even more annoying about EQ is that you appeared in the world as a fully-formed adult, with no knowledge of anything, no idea of local politics, international or racial politics, or even any knowledge of your own hometown (helllo kelethiiiiiiiiiiii -splat- )

My own personal situation has changed in leaps and bounds, and now I can afford a stack of games taller than you or I, but am time-poor to play them all, since I have that full-time job and all. So I don't have the time to waste with obtuse hidden quests. Furthermore - if it were a ! toggle in Skyrim, why would you care? It's a Single Player game, why would you possibly care if others don't have the same dick punching experience you crave? I do know which game you should play, though - Vanguard! 

[Hawkbit]

As someone who played EQ for many, many years, I can comfortably say "Fuck EQ". What was even more annoying about EQ is that you appeared in the world as a fully-formed adult, with no knowledge of anything, no idea of local politics, international or racial politics, or even any knowledge of your own hometown (helllo kelethiiiiiiiiiiii -splat- )

What MMO offers this?  Some folks knew WoW lore, but 90% were new to the story.  DAoC was totally fresh.  Sure, SWG and to some extent SWTOR offer some base lore, but look at current games.  Rift was mildly successful and had no established information about the world.  Guild Wars was pure new lore.  You learned as you played.

And Kelethin was awesome.  It didn't hold your hand, it didn't wipe your tears when you fell.  Exploring meant something; you learned not only where things are at, but where dangers are.  I became part of that world, more than any MMO has done since. 

My own personal situation has changed in leaps and bounds, and now I can afford a stack of games taller than you or I, but am time-poor to play them all, since I have that full-time job and all. So I don't have the time to waste with obtuse hidden quests. Furthermore - if it were a ! toggle in Skyrim, why would you care? It's a Single Player game, why would you possibly care if others don't have the same dick punching experience you crave? I do know which game you should play, though - Vanguard! 

I can't disagree with you about life taking over - I'm in the same situation.  But I want mystery in the games I play; to figure out both mechanics AND the game world.  Good games at the very least attempt to hide the Skinner box.  As long as we're recommending games - try Demon's/Dark Souls. 

Bah, I could write an armchair developer's dissertation that would be worth about as much as a rock.  My simple point is that I tend to be an explorer/achiever character, and those games seem to be made less frequently with the quality they deserve. 

[Sheepherder]

No, you just can't appreciate a good one.

Of course, there's also the part where you saw off a fucker's head as he's kneeling on the ground.  That's good too.

[Azazel]

So anyway - Skyrim Tradeskills: If I absolutely can't be arsed wasting my time crafting shit in this game (my own opinion - I don't enjoy in-depth crafting in games - especially SP games - when I could be using the time to craft something IRL), will I be gimping myself?

[Tebonas]

The won't be ridiculously overpowered. So you might enjoy the game more than you would with tradeskills.

[Sheepherder]

Should be able to survive without it.  I think you're probably overestimating the amount of effort and time you need to invest into crafting to make it worthwhile though.  This is not an MMO: crafting is instant, and you can buy materials right off of the blacksmith.

Completely off-topic, but the lake in front of the house is making the most unholy sounds right now.  Ever hear a square kilometer sheet of ice split in half?

[snowwy]

Should be able to survive without it.  I think you're probably overestimating the amount of effort and time you need to invest into crafting to make it worthwhile though.  This is not an MMO: crafting is instant, and you can buy materials right off of the blacksmith.

Completely off-topic, but the lake in front of the house is making the most unholy sounds right now.  Ever hear a square kilometer sheet of ice split in half?

Unless you use magic....then you have to

[Sheepherder]

Ehh, you could probably pull off a caster with just perks and store bought gear/potions.  I wouldn't want to, mind.

EDIT: Also, with the LAA patch applied by Bethesda Skyrim is running very stably on my system, even more so than with the LAA hack.

[koro]

I played a pure caster (Destruction, Alteration, a little Conjuration for some summons, and a little Restoration for healing and the wards that aren't that great) into the 40s my first time, using pretty much nothing but perks, potions, and gear with standard enchants.

By the time I got into the late 30s, I'd abandoned my 97 Destruction entirely and switched to summoning a Dremora Lord and then casting Paralyze on everything while he hacked away, doing more damage in a sword swing than I could do with half my magicka bar.

I did beat the main quest with it though. But now you couldn't pay me to do it without either mods to make Destruction better and the mana costs less insane, or with 100 enchanting to cheese it.

[Sheepherder]

This morning I was trying to decide which side of the civil war I wanted to pick.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The more I think about skyrim, the more I realize you are meant to be a Daedra-worshipping psychopath. No one is good, everyone's an asshole and most of the continent is trying to kill you so you might as will pillage, slaughter and take whatever you can.

[Ingmar]

This morning I was trying to decide which side of the civil war I wanted to pick.

You describe a lot of stuff there as if they had a choice when they really didn't. They didn't 'make a deal' with the A.D. any more than Germany 'made a deal' with the Allies at the end of WW1.

[Sheepherder]

The Redguards of Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, and continued to resist the Thalmor. This forced Titus Mede to officially renounce Hammerfell as a province of the Empire in order to preserve the peace stipulated in the treaty. Viewing this as a betrayal, Hammerfell became an independent state, and managed to fight the Dominion to a standstill, culminating in the signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai five years later in 4E 180, which stipulated that all Aldmeri forces withdraw from Hammerfell.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

I told Hawkbit he's fucking crazy if he can't find anything to explore in this game, right?

Also, it's more like the Entente surrendering after they finally recrossed the Somme.

[Malakili]

[taolurker]

I honestly think it's easy enough to do just a little smithing in the beginning, and be able to do amazing things with it just by drinking potions and making jewelry to enhance it. It was something that took very little time from adventuring though, once you get the hang of it. Tytanis's mod made me want to smith too, so I could make and melt jewery, and scrap things (although I did accidentally melt down a couple of enchanted swords too).

In case anyone is following Tytanis, they are working on making a multiplayer of some sort, are crafting a world, and started their own forum (saw it via their nexus page). The one version there also added a mod Deadly Dragons that they removed because of complaints it was too hard. I actually thought it was awesome for a challenge. Deadly Dragons

[Bzalthek]

I think my only qualm about this game is the pitiful amount of gold on vendors.  Otherwise I'm having a blast.  I go out of my way to hunt down giants, they is so much fun!