SWTOR

[Nebu]

IMO, to answer your question. Its far more entertaining TO ME to watch and hear a quest being acted/spoken than it is to read text.

I had to add the "TO ME" to illustrate a point.  It's your personal taste.  I prefer to read and use my imagination.  I prefer books to movies.  I am in the minority as I've stated above.  

Why do people prefer to watch movies and have text read to them?  Do they lack imagination?  Are they just lazy?  Are they poor readers?  Does it aid in their immersion to have a voice affixed to the text in a predetermined tone?  I don't know.  I just know what works best for me.  

I can read faster than the voice acting will be done and would prefer to.  One of the biggest detractors of this game FOR ME is that I will spend a portion of my gaming time waiting for a story that I could have already read and processed for myself in my own time.   I would just as soon have them use the resources for content generation.

I really hate that term. It implies we do not all like being gratified when looking for entertainment.

That's not what it means at all.  It means that gratification is delayed.  I like to save the best for last. Some like to have the best first.  I would contend that you can predict the likelihood of which a person prefers being based on their generation.  There are measurable generational differences in preference.  I'm not just making this up.  

[Mrbloodworth]

I believe that term is used by those who feel regret in spending hours of non-fun in games to achieve something. Its a derogatory term that replaces "back in my day". Where some feel that the iniquities of older games were a grand vision and are now a badge of honor, instead what it really was: lacking precedence, tech, or other modern features.

It generally adds nothing to a design discussion.

/flamesuit


As far as reading text, I have always assumed that the act of reading something, the draw was using your own imagination to create the visuals. Most have slightly different visions of Moria when reading the LOTR, common descriptions to base on, but the details and Visuals will differ, for example. I have always found it odd that in a visual media, especially one that can now be so cinematic, it still persists. Long have writers themselves envisioned "Holodecks" and "VR" in novels that would one day change the craft. The push for interactive and interactive narrative.

If we were still gaming in text lines, I would agree with you.

[Nebu]

I'd love to see the statistics on the ages of drivers involved in text-messaging related car accidents (normalized for all drivers that use texting with a certain frequency).  That's a prime example of a lack of delayed gratification. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Texting an example of smarter communication tech. ( Accidents aside ) To the point, many NEW phones now have Voice to text and hands free use.

Counter: Are street lights a bad idea, and was it better before them?

[Nebu]

Texting an example of smarter communication tech. ( Accidents aside ) To the point, many NEW phones now have Voice to text and hands free use.

Counter: Are street lights a bad idea, and it was better before them?

So you're saying that games with faster rewards are necessarily better games?

[Mrbloodworth]

Texting an example of smarter communication tech. ( Accidents aside ) To the point, many NEW phones now have Voice to text and hands free use.

Counter: Are street lights a bad idea, and it was better before them?

So you're saying that games with faster rewards are necessarily better games?

No, that games that reward or enforce fun, achievement, and ping our inherent need to be successful are not bad games. They can still have plenty of challenge.



( I'm sure this is all very odd considering the game I am working on. But I can assure you the changes in this direction I have nudged along have been positive, not just in terms of $$)

[Nebu]

Using cheat codes and hint sites isn't fun for me either, yet they're also quite popular.   I contend they're also a symptom of both poor design and instant gratification.  Defining "fun" is part of the issue with our disagreement.  What you and I find fun may be vastly different.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some people are cheaters, but its their dime. Do note how I worded my response, I said they are not bad games.


A great example of games with constant reinforcement and challenge is one of the most loved titles of all time.

The Diablo series. Reinforcement can come in the form of a satisfying  "splat", an exciting "chain" of effects to actions, or a constant stream of loot, or a voice over claiming you are the one. The list goes on.

[Merusk]

Sept 2nd is the start of the beta weekends, looks like a lot more people are going to be in soon.

Wait.. so what are beta weekends?


As far as cheat codes: I use 'em unabashedly and agree it's because of poor design most times.  Other times it's because I just don't give enough of a damn to "learn to master" your game and I just want to get to the end.   

Games without cheats that are hard just for the hell of it tend to become unfinished games that I regret purchasing.   I think the original God of War was the last game I actually finished despite being a bitch in places even when you dumbed it down to "easy" mode.

[luckton]

Sept 2nd is the start of the beta weekends, looks like a lot more people are going to be in soon.

If a lot is defined by the previous usage of the word by BW, I think a lot of us are still gonna be waiting...wish they would just throw out a number.

[Kirth]

Sept 2nd is the start of the beta weekends, looks like a lot more people are going to be in soon.

Wait.. so what are beta weekends?

Its a weekend where people moan about having to download a 182 torabyte client only to lag out in the newbie starting zones.

[Job601]

I believe that term is used by those who feel regret in spending hours of non-fun in games to achieve something. Its a derogatory term that replaces "back in my day". Where some feel that the iniquities of older games were a grand vision and are now a badge of honor, instead what it really was: lacking precedence, tech, or other modern features.

It generally adds nothing to a design discussion.

/flamesuit


As far as reading text, I have always assumed that the act of reading something, the draw was using your own imagination to create the visuals. Most have slightly different visions of Moria when reading the LOTR, common descriptions to base on, but the details and Visuals will differ, for example. I have always found it odd that in a visual media, especially one that can now be so cinematic, it still persists. Long have writers themselves envisioned "Holodecks" and "VR" in novels that would one day change the craft. The push for interactive and interactive narrative.

If we were still gaming in text lines, I would agree with you.

I agree with Nebu.  When I play Dragon Age or The Witcher I click through the dialogue as fast as I can read it.  This is partly because I'm hyperactive and want to get through it as fast as possible -- although I always do read all the quest text, even in MMOs -- and partly because I prefer reading.  I would much rather read the dialogue then listen to a voice performance and watch the (always bad, because of the volume that are required) animations.  It's a cinematic medium, but the graphics during dialogue scenes in modern rpgs  are just a bunch of talking heads, sometimes with a little bit of camera movement.  The other big difference between games and other visual media is the amount of content -- I would be willing to watch and listen to all the dialogue in a 2 hour game, but in a 10 hour (or much longer) game it gets old fast.  I read a lot of thousand page novels but I don't watch very many 8 hour movies.

[Sky]

So....don't play for 8 hours straight?

[Lantyssa]

Texting an example of smarter communication tech. ( Accidents aside ) To the point, many NEW phones now have Voice to text and hands free use.

It's not smarter, it's just instant.  What's so damn important that they can't wait ten minutes to communicate with someone?  Nothing, but they've come to expect everything getting done this instant.

You're trying to redefine "instant gratification" so that you're not slapped with what you consider a derogatory term.  It's not wrong, in and of itself, it's just different.

[Merusk]

So....don't play for 8 hours straight?

And you call yourself a MMO player.  You poser!

[01101010]

I believe we should all agree to institute the use of Bw = Bioware because every time I see BW (Bloodworth) I start back paging to find the god damn picture. 

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't associate Voice overs and cinematic scenes with "instant gratification". That's a different topic. Reading to many is a hobby, it won't go away, but as a digital medium its going to evolve and likely move away from using purely text delivery, its already happened in the single player space, and will bleed into shared games going forward. Mostly because the tech and processes now allow for it. Sure, some games will then go back and add text to capture that nostalgia, but they may also likely be littered with achievements, loots and satisfying splats.

Texting is Smarter, less bandwidth, more stable, and its instant.  I don't see how thats not a smarter mode of communication for most uses. The only thing I see are "up hill both ways" arguments. The next technologically will come along and this generation will think its also an abomination, no fighting nostalgia.

I'm not redefining anything, in game design there is just no real thing as instant gratification IMO. There is the reinforcement of success or there is the punishment of failure. Reinforcing peoples need to achieve success is not a bad design. Some games can go to far in frequency and some can come short, its a personal preference in that regard.  We are talking about entertainment media here, not life choices.  Early gaming did not necessarily make you start a level over because that was part of the challenge, it makes you start over because the state machine could not be stopped or saved. Its true that NOW such mechanics are Game layer design decisions, not platform level decisions. Achievements are a good example of reinforcement that has become standard as we move forward. For many they ping that inherent human need to be praised for actions. This does not remove challenge from games, I believe this is why the term is so thrown around. There is this need to make sure people know what they are doing is wrong, easy, and non-challenging. Its simply not true. Reinforcement does not remove challenge in games. While its true some games ARE built to not be challenging in the traditional sense, its wrong to label all games as such. Especially when many older titles do the same thing modern ones do, just with less frequency. Like I said, its typically used to describe things that are "not like the old days", not much more. Most times, ignoring the lack of tech or precedence that made many early game designs, not some grand design, but a feature of necessity.

[fuser]

Sept 2nd is the start of the beta weekends, looks like a lot more people are going to be in soon.

Wait.. so what are beta weekends?

Open beta where the servers are only up for the weekends apparently. At PAX it was stated not to be pre-order exclusive and should allow more and more people in over the weekends in September.

Still waiting for official post so take it with a grain of salt   

[Hutch]

I don't associate Voice overs and cinematic scenes with "instant gratification". That's a different topic. Reading to many is a hobby, it won't go away, but as a digital medium its going to evolve and likely move away from using purely text delivery, its already happened in the single player space, and will bleed into shared games going forward. Mostly because the tech and processes now allow for it. Sure, some games will then go back and add text to capture that nostalgia, but they may also likely be littered with achievements, loots and satisfying splats.

Texting is Smarter, less bandwidth, more stable, and its instant.  I don't see how thats not a smarter mode of communication for most uses. The only thing I see are "up hill both ways" arguments. The next technologically will come along and this generation will think its also an abomination, no fighting nostalgia.

I'm not redefining anything, in game design there is just no real thing as instant gratification IMO. There is the reinforcement of success or there is the punishment of failure. Reinforcing peoples need to achieve success is not a bad design. Some games can go to far in frequency and some can come short, its a personal preference in that regard.  We are talking about entertainment media here, not life choices.  Early gaming did not necessarily make you start a level over because that was part of the challenge, it makes you start over because the state machine could not be stopped or saved. Its true that NOW such mechanics are Game layer design decisions, not platform level decisions. Achievements are a good example of reinforcement that has become standard as we move forward. For many they ping that inherent human need to be praised for actions. This does not remove challenge from games, I believe this is why the term is so thrown around. There is this need to make sure people know what they are doing is wrong, easy, and non-challenging. Its simply not true. Reinforcement does not remove challenge in games. While its true some games ARE built to not be challenging in the traditional sense, its wrong to label all games as such. Especially when many older titles do the same thing modern ones do, just with less frequency. Like I said, its typically used to describe things that are "not like the old days", not much more. Most times, ignoring the lack of tech or precedence that made many early game designs, not some grand design, but a feature of necessity.

When people talk about "instant gratification", they don't just mean that the subject instantly received their positive reinforcement reward. "Instant" versus "delayed" gratification refers to the subject's own ability to decide when to go after the reward, not to the speed with which the system grants the reward.

[Mrbloodworth]

That would be why I said frequency. I personally believe the best games have reinforcements in small pips with larger hits at milestones. However, those that talk about it as if it impacts the challenge of a game, you know, the "work for it" types, I feel are just wrong. They are not linked things. You can have a high frequency of reinforcements to the point of it looking like a script playing a MUD ( Cheater with text? ), and still have the hardiest game in the world.

Many times when this term is thrown around on forums, and if it comes up in a design discussion. Its used to ( and I'm exaggerating here ) mean that on boot up, they see an "You win" screen and are now done with the game. Its used to mean a game is shallow, and has no challenge or you are unable to fail ( And by that, They mean harshly ).

When Nebu brought up the term, I found it a bit odd he was arguing that he could read faster than a scene would play out, but in the same breath demeaning "those dam kids and there instant gratification".

Little odd to argue that you want to be able to get through something faster and claim reward ( Even if that reward is completion of the scene ), while shaking a stick at the youngins who take the time to watch the scene.

/derail

[Nebu]

When Nebu brought up the term, I found it a bit odd he was arguing that he could read faster than a scene would play out, but in the same breath demeaning "those dam kids and there instant gratification".

Little odd to argue that you want to be able to get through something faster and claim reward ( Even if that reward is completion of the scene ), while shaking a stick at the youngins who take the time to watch the scene.

/derail

Go back a little further and read some of my earlier posts.  My point about instant gratification was aimed at those MMO gamers that had zero interest in story and voice acting in MMOs.  My point was that these things will be wasted investment on the majority of MMO gamers, particularly those migrating from WoW, because most gamers could give a shit about story and prefer to blaze ahead and grab their reward.  

My point about personally waiting for a voiceover to finish was that I a) prefer to read and use my imagination and b) prefer to decide how my gaming time gets utilized.  When I'm forced to sit through a cinematic or a voiceover, the game is deciding for me.  I'd rather read the text and get back to exploring/killing.  Of course, that's because it's the aspect I enjoy most.  

When people talk about "instant gratification", they don't just mean that the subject instantly received their positive reinforcement reward. "Instant" versus "delayed" gratification refers to the subject's own ability to decide when to go after the reward, not to the speed with which the system grants the reward.

Thank you!

[sam, an eggplant]

Open beta where the servers are only up for the weekends apparently. At PAX it was stated not to be pre-order exclusive and should allow more and more people in over the weekends in September

Awesome. I'm really looking forward to the NDA dropping.

[Azuredream]

Although mostly everyone skipped past quest text in WoW, I don't think people will do it as much in SWTOR because it's voice acted and it'll actually be fun to listen to whereas NPC #132 giving me some slightly reworded spiel about collecting gizzards is about as fun as watching paint dry.

[Mrbloodworth]

Go back a little further and read some of my earlier posts.  My point about instant gratification was aimed at those MMO gamers that had zero interest in story and voice acting in MMOs.  My point was that these things will be wasted investment on the majority of MMO gamers, particularly those migrating from WoW, because most gamers could give a shit about story and prefer to blaze ahead and grab their reward.  

My point about personally waiting for a voiceover to finish was that I a) prefer to read and use my imagination and b) prefer to decide how my gaming time gets utilized.  When I'm forced to sit through a cinematic or a voiceover, the game is deciding for me.  I'd rather read the text and get back to exploring/killing.  Of course, that's because it's the aspect I enjoy most.  

So, you ARE "those MMO gamers that had zero interest in story and voice acting in MMOs" Therefor you wish to "blaze ahead and grab their reward"?

Just asking, because you just described two actions that are not different.

Azuredream, thats what I Said too! 

[luckton]

I'm really looking forward to the NDA dropping.

I'm actually not.  We pretty much already know this is going to be WoW in space.  We've already perceived the combat mechanics and gameplay based on the run-through videos and cake made available.  The only thing the NDA dropping would do is legally unbind testers from ranting about how BW isn't doing Star Wars the "way they would do Star Wars."  Plus the whole "spoil the 4th column of Story" thing.

I say keep it up to the bitter end.

[Ingmar]

The only thing I see are "up hill both ways" arguments.

Agreed with BW here. If your argument rests on "people now aren't like people X years ago" it is almost certainly inherently flawed. People X years ago would behave exactly the same as people now do, given the same environment.

[Nebu]

So, you ARE "those MMO gamers that had zero interest in story and voice acting in MMOs" Therefor you wish to "blaze ahead and grab their reward"?

Not at all.  I am the "I would rather read it then have it read to me" crowd.  I prefer books to movies.  

Agreed with BW here. If your argument rests on "people now aren't like people X years ago" it is almost certainly inherently flawed. People X years ago would behave exactly the same as people now do, given the same environment.

Generational differences exist and are measurable.  Don't attribute that to me.  It's a social science construct.


I'm sorry I ever started this derail.  My apologies. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Don't be. I enjoyed it. I don't think we were disagreeing per-say. Just a few crossed concepts.

But it is likely a debate for another thread. 300 here we come.

[Paelos]

So Open Beta this weekend!?!?

[Nebu]

So Open Beta this weekend!?!?

They better announce it soon.  If I started downloading now, I might have it finished by Friday.   

[Sky]

People X years ago would behave exactly the same as people now do, given the same environment.

I believe the environment is a big part of generation gaps. And X years ago there would have been a new older generation to compare it to.

Nebs is right on this one, kids may be kids, but they don't stay kids and the effect is a moving target based on environment.

I heard the beta client is delivered via black helicopters. The budget is so big they had to hire on Halliburton subsidiaries.

[Mrbloodworth]

You know, they could be clicking accept because once you do one MMO quest...well.... Whats to read?

[Lucas]

So Open Beta this weekend!?!?

They better announce it soon.  If I started downloading now, I might have it finished by Friday.   

I hear you! Here's my current downloading machine, they better hurry indeed :/

[Nebu]

You know, they could be clicking accept because once you do one MMO quest...well.... Whats to read?

I have to say, I think that you just won our debate.  I can't argue with you at all on that one.

[Mrbloodworth]

You know, they could be clicking accept because once you do one MMO quest...well.... Whats to read?

I have to say, I think that you just won our debate.  I can't argue with you at all on that one.

Now we are back to including cinematic and VO presentations. 

I know the Book quests in LOTRO were my fave, I stopped reading the boar quests.