War

[lac]

It's just as important to have devs play their game as it is important to not have devs be important spaceship people.
CCP learned this the hard way and unless I'm seeing some hard evidence I'm not inclined to believe CCP recently hired an important spacehip person and allowed him to continue being an important spaceship person for some time.

[Endie]

I'm not sure what you mean, lac, but seleene/mark says he became a ccp employee three years
ago in the video I linked, and in september 2006 he still had 18 months or so at the very heart of the game's greatest conflict.

If you mean you doubt if they'd make the same mistake now, then I agree. I think.

[Comstar]

I want devs to play Eve.  I think that is essential.  But they should not be alliance leaders.  Fortunately I think that is now widely expected.

Wait, the head of MC was a CCP Dev the entire time from before Goonswarm hooked up with RA?!? *And* this was only mentioned now, and Selenne was in charge of MC for months after the T20 fiasco was revealed?

The time frame dosn't seem possible, didn't people meet him at Fanfests during that period of time? It was everyone's understanding that he didn't get the job at CCP till he quit leading MC.

If it's true, I'd want someone's head on a platter. We won't get it, but I'd demand it.

[MahrinSkel]

And you people wonder why Devs don't play their own games, and hence have no idea how shit actually works in them.

The people who are most dedicated to and most knowledgeable of the game are prime candidates for *both* major alliance leadership and recruitment as developers.  Once those paths intersect, how are they supposed to keep playing the game without remaining alliance leaders?  You want somebody's head because there was a time overlap between his participation as a major leader on the BoB side, and his work as a CCP employee.  BTW, T20 had long since been outed and removed from BoB by late 2006, and the Kugutsmen drama over had already played out.

Do you want Devs to be clueless bastards who only know what's actually happening at the deepest, most complex levels of their game by what they read on CAOD and hear from their buddies who aren't employees?

--Dave

[Endie]

Dave you are wrong on everthing in that post, up to and including the basic facts of the T20 timeframe (in 2007).  Even had you been right then CCP's public response to - and grand promises following - the T20 incident would have been laughable had we known that they had an even higher-placed dev in the same structure. Stoffer had to leave goonfleet in order to become a dev at a time when seleene was still a leader in the MC (with Requiem still to come).

[Comstar]

Do you want Devs to be clueless bastards who only know what's actually happening at the deepest, most complex levels of their game by what they read on CAOD and hear from their buddies who aren't employees?

I'm quite happy for dev's and other CCP employee's to play in 0.0. As grunts. Not as leader's of alliance, little lone ones at war with half the galaxy (and seeing as MC later backstabbed BoB, the entire galaxy).

I tend to agree that it was just an idle boast, and Selenne was not working for CCP before he left MC's leadership, but maybe was something low like a bug reporter or ISD propaganda poster. I find it hard to believe that CCP would be that dumb after the T20 ...uh oh.

[Simond]

Ahahaha stealth bombers.
Bloody stealth bombers!

...the worst part is that Jade :words: Constantine is going to start going on about SB wulfpax again. 

[Endie]

RA aren't what they used to be.  Goons are terrible at Eve.  Tri, ROL, Atlas, Init and AAA don't count as "blobbing" because they are elite PvPers.

That was an impressive slaughter.  Round 2 is against IT Alliance (who intend to take a PL high-end in lowsec) and I imagine that there's rather less chance of us being outnumbered for that one.

[Fordel]

Was it ALL bombers?

I don't know how to read killboards. :(

[Goumindong]

Was it ALL bombers?

I don't know how to read killboards. :(

Not all bombers, i see some red BS on some of the mails.

On the other hand there certainly were a lot and it looks like a nice coordinated bombing effort.

E.G

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/407333

edit: here is my guess at what happened.

Red engages Atlas/IT/Tri on other side of gate from range. At/IT/Tri decide they can't hack it and jump through into Goon SB squad hoping to wipe them out as RA deals with the bubbles getting in. A few of the AT/IT/Tri gang had jumped into the system and found the gang and been killed previously as they trickled in. When the main force gated in, the Goons unloaded as they come out of cloak, killing the majority of enemies(about 75 of the 108 kills) in a beautiful mass of kinetic bombs. Then they proceed to wipe up.

[trevorreznik]

Ahhhhh, that makes more sense.  I was really puzzled by seeing only 1 bomber per mail for the most part, but didn't think to look at the damage done.  Most of the ships took very little damage, so they must've been escaping from a fight on the other side.

[setar]

Given the recent argument about KIA's merits or lack thereof, any comments on their standings reset (and the rumour that this was just to preempt the incoming reset from their former allies)? Don't have access to their forum, and relying on Windypops for intel doesn't sound like such a bright idea..

[Sir T]

Its false. No other comment needed.

[setar]

Thanks ;-)

[Endie]

Molle does not have a new R64 moon.  His merry crew do, however, have two very valuable things: a reminder that there are plenty of people who are quite cheery about the idea of shooting them, and a lot of insurance money for a massive number of lost ships.

And certainly KIA were a decent-sized part of the mongrel fleet that dealt with the IT department.  Given that Goonswarm's historical sympathy for him - despite his awful, awful posting - is probably one of Eddz's two biggest advantages in Eve's strategic environment, I'd be hella surprised to see him throw that away.  The other is his ability to hold personal loyalty in the face of periods of under-achievement, which is matched by Bobby Atlas but few others.

[setar]

The other is his ability to hold personal loyalty in the face of periods of under-achievement, which is matched by Bobby Atlas but few others.

I just had a Big Lebowski flashback. Several KIA pilots stating that they are folding, although I still might be getting trolled. Would be a bit odd as they got secure space and could do whatever the hell they want. That, AND Dominion makes Merc more viable then the current environment.

Edit: CAOD post is up, KIA is gone.

[Sir T]

I was there last night and the slaughter was immense. It certainly reminded me of the great times in Delve. The Usual AAA misstimed smack was entertaining ("Quick, call your friends!!" 1 minute before IT alliance and whoever else piled into the system)

What happened was basically this. We headed up to Solitude (where I lived for well over a year, fact fans) and after a lot of waiting around we crashed through a AAA gatecamp http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1502 and then dipped through syndicate, giving AAA plenty of time to set up a new gatecamp in the other direction. During this time tower 1 was saved.

We waited on the gate and when IT alliance was on its way they came in on us. We safed up and then waited. With 2 to one odds in their favour they probed us out and attacked, wherin our carriers came in and after a few minutes PL arrived, late but appreciated. Lag was fucking terrible in this battle. http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1503

They ran off to Arritant where the tower was coming out. We followed, picking off stragglers and barged into them for yet another lag fest. PL tried to smartbomb their sentri domis but missed http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1504

Finally, tower was stronted and we prepped to leave. They had set up yet another gatecamp with aaa (who was smarting at this point) at 100. We barged in on them and proceeded to feast in Hel http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1501

The ironic thing is that not only did I own that particular moon in Arritant at one point, a contract on that moon was used in as the backdrop to an MC video 

And as an aside Mollie spent the battle safe inside the tower to show off he had the password and to avoid bieng killed. Of course with his proven piloting skill, we killed him anyway. And Ladyscarlet died. Twice 

[Meester]

Edit: CAOD post is up, KIA is gone.

Not much of a surprise to be honest. Wonder if Zenith will get their space or will the Goons take charge?

[Endie]

Harsh to quote me, rather than Himo's blank denial! Well, at least I didn't say more than that I'd be surprised if eddz reset goons! It's not quite that, but I am still surprised. Seems that the curse of 'deny the enemy good fights' has belatedly claimed another victim. I wonder who will get their space. I suppose that a good guide as to whether the dominion changes really do favour large alliances with less space will be whether we repossess that bit of period basis, since zastrow and avalloc know a lot of what's coming. And yes, I'm a little uncomfortable with that information asymmetry, before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy.

[Comstar]

Wait, KIA really IS leaving Period Basis and/or setting Goonswarm -10. Goonswarm who sit on their supply lines and would make holding Period Basis untenable within a week?

After during a time they are not under an attack by anyone at all?

[Sir T]

The original troll was that everyone around them was setting KIA -10 and booting them out so KIA would be resetting. That's so idiotic it did not bear further comment. I'm as surprised as KIA folding as anyone.

Needless to say the guy that broke the news on CAOD was immediately booted and immediately joined DICE. So yeah.

KIA Pilots were in the slaughter in Solitude last night and on the defense gang today after the news broke, so they are still up and running for the moment and are most certainly not setting goonswarm -10.

[setar]

Actually, that rumor originates from a KIA pilot in one of the German forums -- NC/GS about to reset them, Lyonesse looking for alternatives, Eddz mostly AFK, death-by-boredom or a combination thereof. Frankly, KIA's problems were similar to MC's. MC ended up as BOB's pet (or ally, pick your label) because holding space turned out to be vital if you wanted to influence the game. KIA opted for GS as their master/ally, but the fundamental issue didn't change.

Eddz just managed to hold everything together a whole lot longer than I'd ever thought possible.

[Vedi]

Wait, KIA really IS leaving Period Basis and/or setting Goonswarm -10. Goonswarm who sit on their supply lines and would make holding Period Basis untenable within a week?

No, Eddz is disbanding KIA over a period of a month or two. During this time, they are supposed to be nice to Zaf and Goons, but the alliance will be no more.

This was (kinda) announced on CAOD.

[Endie]

Himo, the trouble with stating baldly and blankly that something is categorically untrue is that people (as I did) will think that you're making that statement from a position of knowledge, rather than one of the absence of knowledge. The correct statement (unless you read a clear denial from someone who should have known, like eddz or vio) was at most 'I've so far heard nothing to suggest that that is true.'

[Sir T]

There's a difference between qualifying something that's remotely plausible and something that's just flat out insane. The first sure, say I have no knowlage. The second you just say "bull shit" and leave it at that. it requires no further response and needs no more. I mean Goons setting KIA -10. That makes no sense from a realpolitik or strategic point of view, even if Goons didn't have a solid record of sticking by their allies. Who the fuck do they think Goons are, ATLAS?

The fact that the guy that ran to CAOD to blow about this immediately joined DICE shows there was an orchestrated whispering campaign going on. But that does not disguise the fact that it was obvious bullshit. Bullshit requiters only a single word response. Case closed.

And I saw that General Windypops was dropping dark hints that Eddz stole stuff from an alliance mining op on CAOD yesterday. Good to know they only have enough imagination to recycle the same smears they used against CYVOK, eh?

[stahlregen]

Yo check out my videos of goonswarm's foreign legion bomber wing 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPnhGsUVx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_D60N8ogkQ

[Sir T]

Awesome :)

[trevorreznik]

Bombers look pretty fun right now, looks like it's finally doable for a dozen or so people playing in their enemy's primetime to have a pretty big impact.

On another note, how the hell does atlas have 6 titans?

[Endie]

Bombers look pretty fun right now, looks like it's finally doable for a dozen or so people playing in their enemy's primetime to have a pretty big impact.

On another note, how the hell does atlas have 6 titans?

I suspect that their trawl of the GBC, IRON et al after various blocs collapsed netted them a few.  I'm more surprised that they don't have more.  ZAF by themselves have a dozen titans.

[setar]

Lots of skirmished happening. Think someone already linked the very effective use of Bombers by GS and friends that resulted in about 80 AAA/Atlas BS losses, but there's so much more going on. Coven/Sys-C losing a nice chunk of caps versus Brick Squad, PL killing about 80 NC caps, AAA trading 3 caps vs 16 Razor dreads which were on the move...

And RA are on their way out. Again. Is there going to be another GS rescue mission? Looking at Minor Threat, the CO2 incident, the TNT backstab, KIA and RA it seems that for once the diplomatic issues are not solely on Atlas' side.

[Gets]

RA has been dieing for 5 years now.

[Endie]

Lots of skirmished happening. Think someone already linked the very effective use of Bombers by GS and friends that resulted in about 80 AAA/Atlas BS losses, but there's so much more going on. Coven/Sys-C losing a nice chunk of caps versus Brick Squad, PL killing about 80 NC caps, AAA trading 3 caps vs 16 Razor dreads which were on the move...

And RA are on their way out. Again. Is there going to be another GS rescue mission? Looking at Minor Threat, the CO2 incident, the TNT backstab, KIA and RA it seems that for once the diplomatic issues are not solely on Atlas' side.

I suspect that you're trolling a little, but I'll bite before Sir T does.  We had 167 kills the last time someone added up the mails from Mister Vee's engagements against Atlas, AAA et al.  I'd not normally quibble that much over subcaps but it is twice what you say, unless this was a different occasion (we've been killing a lot, so I can believe that an 80-kill night went unreported).

And saying that Coven/Sys-K lost a nice bunch of caps against Brick Squad does rather miss out the fact that it was mainly a goon force, with Brick Squad help, that killed those caps.  Look at the kills and the top 20 slots on each is filled with goons.

As regards the south-west and related resets, I genuinely don't see why we would be seen as behaving in any way like AAA.  We blued a bunch of people in order to fight a campaign.  We fought and won that campaign, stripped Atlas/AAA of every single buffer and pet, then went home.  Not everyone wanted to go home (we were in the habit of winning and many think we should have rode the wave), but the Goonfleet Foreign Legion is hardly going to keep, say, TNT blue after their local allies reset them (then go belly up, themselves) and we leave.  Minor Threat just imploded, although there can hardly have been the backstabbing you imply when most of them are now in Period Basis.  The timing of the CO2 thing was unfortunate, but it was nice work by the AAA spy who pulled it off, and Zapa fell for it hook, line and sinker.  If I was the spy's handler, though, I'd have kicked his arse for immediately rejoining within a few hours, and diluting the impact.

KIA had no real reason to go on.  It's not a diplomatic issue, but rather an internal one: diplomatically they are still mutually blue for now (depends what they decide to do, I suppose).  RA's quandary is merely whether they can hold their Insmother possessions in the face of a huge number of hostiles, with Atlas desperate to secure a route to Empire (maybe even space to move to) which is not dependent on AAA: I've been kind about Bobby Atlas before and I think he's smart enough to see which way the wind will blow in the long run.  Should we have moved permanently into the SW again to prop up RA's Insmother holdings?  There are certainly arguments on both sides, but Dominon may make holding all that space rather moot, anyway.

And so on...  Of course, SHC will have a different view (I've not read it for weeks, and I suppose I should), but there are historical reasons for that over there, just as there are for the attitudes geld by many posters, here.

RA has been dieing for 5 years now.

I imagine that you are joking in claiming that RA has been dying for slightly longer than it has existed?  They have, however, changed a lot (and not all for the better) from the organisation they were at their peak between 2006 and early to mid 2007.

[setar]

Endie, I wasn't actually trolling GS -- with the exception of RA most of those incidents are NC-related and not really GS's problem. I'd be hard pressed to explain why the CO2 reset was the fault of GS, for example. Likewise for TNT.

BRICK was an omission, but the linked battle report should make it obvious that there was heavy GS involvement. Twice the number of ships lost in the AAA/Atlas - GS skirmish means I must have been looking at a subset of the battle report. Not that it matters, but are you sure those were all battleships? If so, yikes.

As for RA I'm actually merely probing. Last time the general theme was that while they might have changed they are still the good russians not bought out by aluminium tycoons and deserve help which they arguably received. Question simply is whether this is still true, or whether it's going to tilt towards 'this is no longer the RA who fought with us' side.

Trolling or not, I *like* what is currently happening. Lots of wars at a smaller scale, and I didn't expect to see those before Dominion.

[setar]

Minor Edit: If you read through CO2's summary of their views I find it hard to believe that this was the work of just a spy. The final trigger, maybe, but not the general attitude from a major alliance towards their pets.

In short, same problems everywhere ;-)

[Sir T]

Twice the number of ships lost in the AAA/Atlas - GS skirmish means I must have been looking at a subset of the battle report. Not that it matters, but are you sure those were all battleships? If so, yikes.

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1498
http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1499

Its 2 skirmiskes in GGE about an hour apart. 168 total kills, 137 of them BS (89 in one and 48 in the other). Theres been other examples not quite as spectacular such as http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1492 (26 BS)