War

[trevorreznik]

I suppose it's possible that corp chat/corp ts rooms is where the BoB guys knew each other well.  In every corp except goonfleet, corp chat is where most stuff gets talked about and there isn't nearly as much posting as there would be without it.

[Arthur_Parker]

Edit: and Mahrin is right, I would be astonished if they don't get their name back.

I think CCP would think twice if the goon bob corp held sovereignty somewhere.

[Fordel]

It's the whole "We need to be SUPER ELITE again!" that gets me.


Maybe one out of every 3 dozen posters actually acknowledges WHY they were "elite" back in the day and that those conditions do, not, exist anymore and said poster usually gets trampled on for not being 'elite' or whatever.

[IainC]

It's the whole "We need to be SUPER ELITE again!" that gets me.


Maybe one out of every 3 dozen posters actually acknowledges WHY they were "elite" back in the day and that those conditions do, not, exist anymore and said poster usually gets trampled on for not being 'elite' or whatever.

There's an interesting discussion going on about theorycrafting an 'elite PvP alliance' and what that would look like. Despite the best efforts of the thread starter to keep it on the topic of what ships they'd fly and what fleet tactics they'd use, the prevailing opinion is that SPs largely don't matter and that winning and losing on all but the small gang scale is more to do with reliable FCs (to a lesser extent) and a polished rear echelon (for the majority of the alliance's effectiveness) than 'elite pilots'.

[MahrinSkel]

It's really damned simple: An "Elite PvP Alliance" by the standards everyone puts on that label became impossible after the introduction of moon mining and capital ships.  Because you can't operate at the highest level of impact without owning space and running a sizable industrial organization, and your strategies are going to rise and fall more on logistics than on fleet doctrine.  You can't let the industrial/logistical carebears take total control of your strategy (see: ASCN, D2), but you can't freeze them out either, because they'll "Go Galt" and your capacity to wage war will simply go away without a whimper (see: IRON, FIX).

BoB/Kenzoku tried to ride the ragged line in between those extremes and did pretty well (although they choked out most of their subordinates in the process), but the Haargoth Affair and the subsequent loss of 90%+ of their industrial base fucked up the balance, and the month-long paralysis while their capital fleet was locked in PR- kept them from grabbing their last chance at building a "Last Trench" (consolidating central and southern Querious as a logistical lifeline for Period Basis before the Goons could consolidate Delve).

MC tried, but the need to control space and have a fixed home made it impossible for them to stay neutral, and Outbreak was the last hurrah for the "Elite PvP Alliance" concept but even Marko's bankroll couldn't make them more than an irritant in the Great Game.

There is no "Elite PvP Alliance", and never again will be.

--Dave

[trevorreznik]

PL is the standard for 'elite pvp' alliance in the blob vs blob warfare, but they're pretty much the exception to the rule.  They were able to get one of the 5 richest regions and hold onto it with minimal effort due to sheer happenstance, and were also able to tag along in the 'great war' without having to field the mainstay BS fleets, letting them focus on smallish scale warfare.  Obviously their dread numbers and BS numbers have become impressive over time, but they really were in the perfect situation that no other alliance has found themselves in.

[Kovacs]

Akkk.. I was just getting used to my new home.

2009.06.25 13:18
GoonSwarm has declared war on Intrepid Crossing.  Within 25 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

[Endie]

Akkk.. I was just getting used to my new home.

2009.06.25 13:18
GoonSwarm has declared war on Intrepid Crossing.  Within 25 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

Yeah, sorry 'bout that.  You must have known that we'd help RA and xDeathx as soon as we were able?  We owe our Russian masters a lot.  The "R" and "S" in RSF should have been a clue 

One pleasant thing is that I still have ships nearby from when we were in Geminate and Kalavela before, throwing out Atlas, Smash, Roadkill etc...

Don't worry: if it starts the same way as that campaign then you'll get to kill one of our titans in the first big fight

[trevorreznik]

Is XdX working alongside RA for this?  I'm curious as to what their relationship is right now.

[lac]

They are friends with benefits.

[Numtini]

GoonSwarm has declared war on Hellcats.
Within 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

LOL really? Us? I have to guess this is not a major strategic war 

[WayAbvPar]

Goons have been freed from the shackles of constant POS warfare and are now rampaging across the universe rapin' and pillagin' anything they can find. And pissing in the bad Russians' Cheerios.

[IainC]

GoonSwarm has declared war on Hellcats.
Within 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

LOL really? Us? I have to guess this is not a major strategic war 

You're in Hellcats? My missus was thinking of applying for them.

[Endie]

GoonSwarm has declared war on Hellcats.
Within 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

LOL really? Us? I have to guess this is not a major strategic war 

There are no Hellcats.

No.


And this is as personal as it will ever get.

Goodbye.

[Jayce]

GoonSwarm has declared war on Hellcats.
Within 24 hours fighting can legally occur between those involved.

LOL really? Us? I have to guess this is not a major strategic war 

You're in Hellcats? My missus was thinking of applying for them.

And his missus is NOT a spy.  Not GIA at all.  Nope. 

[Mynxee]

You're in Hellcats? My missus was thinking of applying for them.

Tell her to chat me up in game.

We find the Goons war dec kind of cute and rather amusing. We're already taking bets internally (and with friends) about how long they'll keep it active. As for spies...I'm afraid they would be very disappointed. Paranoid Alpha Cat is paranoid.

[setar]

http://killboard.atlas-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=85430

Bit of a shame that even the demise of BOB did not change the large powerblock; anyone still having hopes for actual standing resets (particularly those that do not get revoked the minute one former friend is being attacked)?

[Endie]

Legion of Death have reset IRC and ED, and the rate and prioritisation of our deployment seems to be increasing.  Razor, MM and PL are already represented. Hold on, Russian buddies!

Is there anyone here from either side who knows what happened in ZO-?  Someone on the GF boards is saying there was a comfortable victory for a PL/MM/Razor force, but I know how over-optimistic immediate reports on battles can be.

Fake Edit: I guess that Setar already answered that, thanks: that does look moderately good so far for the Coalition.  Were Atlas basically alone?  And they have assembled a huge multi-alliance coalition from their side to attack RA and xDeathx, so they can't really complain when we come to defend our Russian friends from them vOv  It'll be interesting to see how they respond to the first big losses of dreads they suffer (assuming that they don't win every single cap engagement, of course, since they have vast numbers of dreads), since I believe they don't replace cap losses, they were flat broke on the alliance and individual level a few months ago, and we all know how crap the old goonspace is for moons.

second Edit: I just spent a little while looking through Aggression, Scorched Earth and Atlas on dotlan.  It's like a who's who of the alliances we have killed not once but twice, together with some Tri, some Iron (so people everyone have killed at least twice) and a few old-school Atlas corps (who we have also kicked around a few times).  The latter cadre have a huge job: I've said before I respect the way Bobby Atlas holds personal loyalty regardless of the results of their wars, but moulding that lot into a unified and cohseive force will be a real challenge.

[tmp]

The astonishing things, for me, are the low postcounts on really key members and the lack of general questioning and "refactoring" that is going on in some important threads. (..)

Most of the stuff went in corp-specific forums, irc and corp/alliance chat/ts.

[Pezzle]

http://killboard.atlas-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=85430

Bit of a shame that even the demise of BOB did not change the large powerblock; anyone still having hopes for actual standing resets (particularly those that do not get revoked the minute one former friend is being attacked)?

I am with Yalson here.  Mega groups are crushing the life out of many aspects of this game.  Of course, people will blob up if they can and want to do so.  I am not sure why that should be encouraged.

[JustinMead]

Even tho we held the field, PL lost 20 hacs 

this is what you get when your rusty as fuck.

[Pezzle]

Granted you had numbers.  Continued results like that and the business there will be finished quickly.

[Endie]

I think the lesson for Atlas is 'blob not, lest thou be blobbed'. Of course, as mentioned before, AAA might always decide that they want to help Atlas attack RA and legion of death. Politically that would be very useful for the rest of us, as we defend the 'original' Russians against them.

[lac]

Reikoku has left the alliance and claims to join factional warfare.

Even if the factional warfare bit is just a joke, ex-Bob corps seem to be heading down the wulfpax road towards more fun and less tiresome space overlord stuff.

[rand]

http://killboard.atlas-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=85430

Bit of a shame that even the demise of BOB did not change the large powerblock; anyone still having hopes for actual standing resets (particularly those that do not get revoked the minute one former friend is being attacked)?

I am with Yalson here.  Mega groups are crushing the life out of many aspects of this game.

Not really, who gives a shit.

It's hypocritical coming from the other in any case (expecting us to reset and not them, that is) because Atlas' new southern coalition blob ran over UNL and RA and was threatening xdeath.

[trevorreznik]

It is kind of surprising though that PL/NC are heading over, because the relationships with XdX/Solar were pretty strained for a while.  I'm kind of surprised PL hasn't done standing resets and gone to just drop on whoever's in the area.

This should be a lot of fun for goons though, this'll be the first US tz opponent in years to fight from what I hear.

[Pezzle]

http://killboard.atlas-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=85430

Bit of a shame that even the demise of BOB did not change the large powerblock; anyone still having hopes for actual standing resets (particularly those that do not get revoked the minute one former friend is being attacked)?

I am with Yalson here.  Mega groups are crushing the life out of many aspects of this game.

Not really, who gives a shit.

It's hypocritical coming from the other in any case (expecting us to reset and not them, that is) because Atlas' new southern coalition blob ran over UNL and RA and was threatening xdeath.

What?  I give a shit.  I am not involved in the conflict at all, this is not about finger pointing.  Some people hate blob warfare.  Getting some shooting in can be hard enough without worrying about your enemies blue list adding more numbers or X more DD's you have to consider.  The game is fucked up enough.

[Endie]

Standing aside (as well as I can) from the direct interest I obviously have in this example, the problem is that very, very few forces in Eve will start a war they are not confident they can win.  Quite right, too, given that many alliances don't survive losses.

I'll be scrupulously fair here and say that some versions of Tri, for instance, have started risky wars, but it's not hugely common.  People used to achieve that confidence in victory by attacking weaker powers (the most recent example of that I can think of is Solar vs MH or the GBC vs Hydra), but now they do so with numbers.  Now, with the stimulus first provided by the threat of Bob's stated ambitions, and later by ROL's willingness to make substantial, real world payments to key players, very few powers are so inconsequential as to have nobody with an interest in saving them from the opposition.

So Atlas get a large conglomeration of alliances together to secure a sane logistics route to empire and to attack RA and xDeathx, because by themselves they know they would probably lose, and that is a stupid position to start a war from.  But now Goonfleet see their old ally under attacks at odds that they cannot possibly survive, and head over, presumably persuading the NC that having Atlas (widely perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a proxy of AAA) aggrandising themselves to such an extent is threatening.  Perhaps PL are in it for the geopolitics, or perhaps for the hot drops.  Maybe TCf will turn up en masse, too, since Scorched Earth backstabbed them.

Now Atlas and their allies still have substantial numbers advantage in-theatre, but are made up of failures and the dross who bailed early from the last war, and have little cash, so things are evened-up for the moment.

If anyone wants "good fights" they should attack people that might beat them.  Get a big enough coalition together that you appear a threat, and others will feel threatened and will step in.  And despite the public claims of many alliances, very few really go to war for ~good fights~.  That's not why GF attacked Bob or Smash.  It's not why AAA attacked KOS.  It's not why BoB attacked Hydra or Iron.  I'm not critical of that in the slightest.

We have a balance of power in Eve.  We've left the imperial expansionist age and now we are in the early 20th century phase.  I don't mind: I like fleet fights.

[Endie]

Oh, and so I don't just seem to be being critical without solutions, I'll repeat what I have said before:

1) make it harder, not easier, to completely remove someone from their space.  Yes, favour the defender more.

2) make it very hard to hold large amounts of space, especially over wide areas.  Use an artifical scalar like the civ games do, if necessary.

3) make it profitable for many people to live in the same area (primarily with something like agents in player-controlled outposts).

The first step removes the paranoia that creates the hyper-coalition.  The second creates ever-decreasing returns for expansion, and balkanises 0.0, creating sources of conflict.  The third gets even more people out into 0.0, destabilising the tired old structures that have grown up.

[rand]

What?  I give a shit.  I am not involved in the conflict at all, this is not about finger pointing.  Some people hate blob warfare.  Getting some shooting in can be hard enough without worrying about your enemies blue list adding more numbers or X more DD's you have to consider.  The game is fucked up enough.

I wasn't talking about you, I was saying it's hypocritical coming from anyone in Atlas' southern coalition. Blobs are fine, the game's alright and actually fun. The only major problem with 0.0 warfare is that titans haven't been nerfed enough.

 Without a big ass war I was actually pretty bored for the last week or so. I just find the pubbie obsession with blue lists/NAPfests/blobs/whatever retarded

[Pennilenko]

Oh, and so I don't just seem to be being critical without solutions, I'll repeat what I have said before:

1) make it harder, not easier, to completely remove someone from their space.  Yes, favour the defender more.

2) make it very hard to hold large amounts of space, especially over wide areas.  Use an artifical scalar like the civ games do, if necessary.

3) make it profitable for many people to live in the same area (primarily with something like agents in player-controlled outposts).

The first step removes the paranoia that creates the hyper-coalition.  The second creates ever-decreasing returns for expansion, and balkanises 0.0, creating sources of conflict.  The third gets even more people out into 0.0, destabilising the tired old structures that have grown up.

  That would be awesome.

[Endie]

Without a big ass war I was actually pretty bored for the last week or so. I just find the pubbie obsession with blue lists/NAPfests/blobs/whatever retarded

Oh, totally this.  For a week I was logging into three or four sets of forums in the morning, finding nothing interesting and logging out again.  I've been totally forced to do some work before 10am.

[lac]

GHSC latest heist - Razor.

[Meester]

Wonder if there will be a sort of Yalta Conference of the big major powers left. Maybe at the fanfest the Goon, NC and Drone Region leadership folk will meet  - discussion topics include which government shall run Curse, the demilitarization of AAA and pets and free elections in Venal 

[Endie]

GHSC latest heist - Razor.

The GHSC have a nice system going that gives them exposure (and I don't think Istvaan or Tyrrax would ever claim to be publicity-shy) for little effort.  It's almost a franchise, in that disgruntled alliance members chat to them before shafting their organisation, maybe get a few tips, carry it out and gain notoriety by saying "it was the GHSC wot dunnit."  All of which costs the GHSC members themselves virtually no effort for decent results.