War

[Fordel]

Maybe THAT is the grand strategy, wait till you get Sov 3 so you start doing retarded maneuvers with your Titans, then hot drop the entirety of the Kenny cap fleet onto your titans and wipe a few out!


Then they can finally make a grand CAOD return post:


"We're Back!"

[Gets]

Tanis. Alliance changed to CCP Engineering Alliance.

Heh.

[setar]

Looks like we may just have got veeery lucky here, despite the hilarious chain of events that messed up our stront timing.  It seems that Kenny only managed to reinforce six towers in 49- on broken timers, and by the latest email we have 27 while they have 14.  So if they kill all of ours - a good chance, but not inevitable - and replace them all then we will be 21-20 up.

I _think_ it would be 20-21 for you, IF all POS die and nothing else happens. We all know how likely that is. I am still contemplating whether I want to postpone my weekend events only to stare at a black screen at 2000 local. Sigh.

[trevorreznik]

It's 27-16 now, so those 6 would flip sov assuming they were defended for the requisite week.  
+2 today to bob due to PL poses dying, then +6 would be 22, -6 for gs would be 21.  It'll be an important fight, I doubt it'll be much fun though

[lac]

[Fordel]

The more I think about it, the more I suspect SOMEONE is laying a ridiculously huge capital trap for this Sunday's fight.



Maybe I'm just prescribing cunning and subterfuge where simple incompetence is more likely.

[setar]

As Shadoo seems to have given up on 49-U I'm suspicious about a capital trap as well. On the other hand after the various comments on a lack of strategic successes and -A- not having any patience it would be sweet to gain 49-U. Don't see that changing the overall outcome of the war unless someone opens up a second front, but still.

[Sir T]

Yesterday was kind of fun for me. Nothing like going into a 5 to one furball and surviving. :D

Neutral Play by play. Basically they had massive amounts of people all day. We contented ourselves with drivebys and such getting a lot of sneaky kills, and finally they came on our tower with something like 600 pilots and we had 150 odd defending. Utter mayhem as you can imagine, but we could have done quite well if they had not brought in a carrier and our FC had not focused on it completely to the detriment of the stuff we could actually shoot down. ET was shooting his mouth off as he always does when he has over 2 to one odds in local.

The interesting thing is that they were trying to taunt is with the fact that "Our allies" Minor Threat lost a dispro moon yesterday. Um. Minor Threat, our allies? The clowns that blew up my carrier? What crap are they telling their pilots on the other side? (For the record they are in no way our allies and provided most of the resistance in Delve for the first 3 weeks as well as chased around our convoys from the south.)

They killed 5 towers, 2 PL and 3 GS. On the last one we had even numbers again so we attacked it as they were onlining it. They came in on top of us and got raped, so they came in at extreme range and shot up our frigs that came up to them them for K/d ratio while burning just out of effective range of our battleships. Anyway we blew up their onlining tower and replaced it, but its still a net loss as our tower wont claim for a week.

On second front news ED and IRC have surrendered unconditionally to RA and have scooted back home like good little boys. RA have basically agreed to a non pas quille ultra situation and are now free to help xxdeath, who have already taken 46DP I believe.

Not surprisingly, Kenzuko has been slowly losing pilots over the past few weeks, standing now at 3081. Its general across all Kenny corps, but DICE and BNC have suffered particularly badly.

[Endie]

Yeah I thought that the latest 49- successes would have galvanised kenny, but they lost more pilots in the last 24 hours than at any point so far. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how they do with McAAA away facing up to the developing second front, today. There are two towers coming out shortly, one on each side, and in their prime I assume they'll view both as must-wins, if only to persuade pissed-off and canny poles and others that they are worth helping.

The key is how death and ra do in the east. Without the russians to do the work, molle is stuffed in the long run, whatever happens here.

Also, how do you do a login capital trap when local will not display and the grid takes an hour to show (by which point you are dead long ago)? I suspect that if we save any towers at all it will be because nobody can cycle their guns and they regen v0v

[trevorreznik]

On second front news ED and IRC have surrendered unconditionally to RA and have scooted back home like good little boys. RA have basically agreed to a non pas quille ultra situation and are now free to help xxdeath, who have already taken 46DP I believe.

what the heck does non pas french whatever mean google didnt help in the 10 seconds i spent on it

also why did ED/IRC surrender, are they that afraid of being next on the chopping block if NC resets them?

[Murgos]

what the heck does non pas french whatever mean google didnt help in the 10 seconds i spent on it

Dunno, but ne plus ultra is latin and means, pretty much, the highest point.  I'm guessing Sir T meant it in a, "RA keeps what they got at the highest point of their advance and everyone else goes home." sort of way.

I don't see how Kenny can get motivated even by complete victory in 49- this weekend because all that really means is, AT THE VERY BEST, that there will be several weeks more of fighting for 49-.

Anyway, I'm logged in 49- but I doubt if I can get on tomorrow to join in the festivities.

[Endie]

On second front news ED and IRC have surrendered unconditionally to RA and have scooted back home like good little boys. RA have basically agreed to a non pas quille ultra situation and are now free to help xxdeath, who have already taken 46DP I believe.

what the heck does non pas french whatever mean google didnt help in the 10 seconds i spent on it

also why did ED/IRC surrender, are they that afraid of being next on the chopping block if NC resets them?

"That word: I do not think it means what [he] thinks it means."  The actual phrase is ne plus ultra, it's latin (although French, which is just badly pronounced, ungrammatical Latin anyway, is similar) and normally in our usage it pretty much means as good as it gets or perfect.  The latin (I knew doing this classics degree would eventually pay off) means no more beyond, so maybe Sir T is meaning it in the original sense.

And why would IRC not surrender?  We stole huge numbers of their dreads, almost all their logistics team's jump freighters as well as thousands of ships and more.  We persuaded the Northern Coalition to reset them (ED have/had an outpost up in Vale).  And, most of all, RA was murdering them even in US prime, and had already destroyed their towers in C6, taken a sov three system and siezed an R64 moon from them.

[trevorreznik]

On second front news ED and IRC have surrendered unconditionally to RA and have scooted back home like good little boys. RA have basically agreed to a non pas quille ultra situation and are now free to help xxdeath, who have already taken 46DP I believe.

what the heck does non pas french whatever mean google didnt help in the 10 seconds i spent on it

also why did ED/IRC surrender, are they that afraid of being next on the chopping block if NC resets them?

"That word: I do not think it means what [he] thinks it means."  The actual phrase is ne plus ultra, it's latin (although French, which is just badly pronounced, ungrammatical Latin anyway, is similar) and normally in our usage it pretty much means as good as it gets or perfect.  The latin (I knew doing this classics degree would eventually pay off) means no more beyond, so maybe Sir T is meaning it in the original sense.

And why would IRC not surrender?  We stole huge numbers of their dreads, almost all their logistics team's jump freighters as well as thousands of ships and more.  We persuaded the Northern Coalition to reset them (ED have/had an outpost up in Vale).  And, most of all, RA was murdering them even in US prime, and had already destroyed their towers in C6, taken a sov three system and siezed an R64 moon from them.

It just seems silly to me to surrender.  Then again I'm a bitter old vet and think the only fun part about EVE is pvping, so it's better to pvp and lose than to just sit around with a ton of blues and nothing to shoot at.   

edit-it just seems strange that the NC reset had that sort of affect on them, I'm reading the logs posted on caod and it's really quite sad.  oh well, they'll come join in the attack on tenefiris for a bit to show 'good faith' then go back to jewing for the next year or so in peace and quiet. it's just amazing to me how fast they folded when standings got reset because they'd lose a whopping one station up in vale

[Sir T]

"That word: I do not think it means what [he] thinks it means."  The actual phrase is ne plus ultra, it's latin (although French, which is just badly pronounced, ungrammatical Latin anyway, is similar) and normally in our usage it pretty much means as good as it gets or perfect.  The latin (I knew doing this classics degree would eventually pay off) means no more beyond, so maybe Sir T is meaning it in the original sense.

Yeah "Ne Plus Ultra" is what I meant. It was a phrase used in treaties at the end of wars, which was an agreement to have things as they were "before the war", meaning relations would be as they were before the conflict. No more beyond this. (my own classics degree showing here)

Anyway, we just got double doomsdayed in 49-. It was a pretty well executed DD, but it showed how stuffed kenny is without AAA as we were easily matching their numbers before the Russians piled in right after the DDs went off. Lost 50 odd BS. Not surprisingly we lost our tower which came out 15 minutes afterward.

Hilariously I lit a cyno for bridge after that and the whole enemy fleet came in again, but despite being outside the tower I lived to fire another cyno, which cost them more ships when they came in (this fc was not quite as idiotic as the last one and targetted BS with pos guns) Then Messiah Killeon (Mollies alt) flew into our next staging pos to gloat a pid and be used as a warp pont for the 2 titans they threw into the pos with an avatar n standby ready to dd all of us that would be thrown out of the pos.. and nothing happened. Sadly for little old shrike it was yet another titan failure, as titan bumping has been nerfed to fuck in the last patch along with the fix to capital bumping. So the 2 raganarocs sat in the middle of our fleet and basiclly were laughed at.

I cant see AAA running off anywhere tomorrow no matter what RA does, tbh. They need a victory, no matter how meaningless, to look good on forums, so they will probably stick around tomorrow. We will see however.

[Endie]

"That word: I do not think it means what [he] thinks it means."  The actual phrase is ne plus ultra, it's latin (although French, which is just badly pronounced, ungrammatical Latin anyway, is similar) and normally in our usage it pretty much means as good as it gets or perfect.  The latin (I knew doing this classics degree would eventually pay off) means no more beyond, so maybe Sir T is meaning it in the original sense.

Yeah "Ne Plus Ultra" is what I meant. It was a phrase used in treaties at the end of wars, which was an agreement to have things as they were "before the war", meaning relations wold be as they were before the conflict. (my own classics degree showing here)

I suspect you mean "status quo ante."

And I agree that everyone, regardless of distractions, will be trying to get into 49- tomorrow.  That may change in the coming weeks if RA and xDeathx continue to take space.

[trevorreznik]

if kenzoku takes 49- i dont agree it's meaningless.  it would give them/gkc/-a-/etc a capital staging point outside of npc delve and be a huge confidence builder.  

then again i think the gs/nc side is downplaying 49- right now to set expectations low-if things were looking a lot better there, or if they end up winning sunday (quite likely due to the cap advantage they typically have), there will be lots of talk about how big a win it was to stop gkc/russians cold and unable to even take a nonjammed system

[Pax]

On the HED- front - is this one real?

[Pezzle]

It should be, yes.

[Endie]

I agree that Kenny taking 49- would be a big deal.  Partially because of the caps but mainly for the morale of them (lol) finally taking a system from us after four months in the south and Delve/Querious.  I just don't think that they'll hold it if McAAA and co. head off to defend their space in the east.  Though if RA/Death etc are serious in Tenerifis then 49- is the least of McAAA's troubles, since they'll be bounced around a lot if we press in Catch.

But where I disagree is that I feel it would be a huge deal if we held 49- tomorrow.  It's a solidly hostile timezone and its at the weekend, when Goons are traditionally rotten at being in Eve, and our enemies are traditionally strongest.  In the unlikely event that they don't wipe us out this weekend then it'll be a huge morale blow for them, and we've probably all seen what the Poles and Hungarians are saying about supporting Kenny.

[Koyochi]

also why did ED/IRC surrender, are they that afraid of being next on the chopping block if NC resets them?

Well, with about everyone (except Bob en AAA) setting us (IRC) suddenly to red, it felt like we were de facto next on the block.  So I assume that the goal of the negotiations were to get us of that block asap , not so much as getting our stuff back. It seems we could live with those material losses, but having everyone steamroll us from all sides, just because we would like to show that we can resist pressure from goons ... that didn't seem like a bright future.

[Endie]

also why did ED/IRC surrender, are they that afraid of being next on the chopping block if NC resets them?

Well, with about everyone (except Bob en AAA) setting us (IRC) suddenly to red, it felt like we were de facto next on the block.  So I assume that the goal of the negotiations were to get us of that block asap , not so much as getting our stuff back. It seems we could live with those material losses, but having everyone steamroll us from all sides, just because we would like to show that we can resist pressure from goons ... that didn't seem like a bright future.

That's a fair assessment.  Unless McAAA had promised one or the other space down south for disrupting the eastern Russians' attack on Tenerifis then the eventual result was always going to be a bit dubious.  I just can't see why it ever seemed a good idea, especially when the head of IRC tried to force the Mittani to grant IRC more space.  If they wanted space then surely (and I admit I'm not clear on the dynamic, here) they could have headed south to help out and take some?

[Koyochi]

I guess they wanted space practically located right next to our current space :) Our russian solar/death neighbours are already turning the drone region into some kind of pointillism painting, we shouldn't make the chaos on the maps any worse.

[MahrinSkel]

The only hope Kenzoku has is that AAA can push through the narrow part of the Querious bottleneck between Catch and Delve.  It would help them a lot if they can do it before 49-U and/or 8QT hits Sov 3 for goons (8QT is irreplaceable as the link to southern Delve).  If they can't take 49-U now, they'll never take Delve back, period, any other invasion scenario is harder.  If the full southern Qerious/Delve JB chain is in place, Goons are no longer operating in 3 theaters (southern Querious, Northern Delve, and Period Basis), tactically they're all within a few jumps of each other, and of Empire.

--Dave

[Endie]

Well, that went as predicted!  Sure enough, Kenny, -A- et al brought everyone and their alt, while TCF and others from our allies were putting out fires elsewhere.  350 goons might be more than Kenny could bring, but even with the NC guys who were running around doing (useful) stuff in Querious we were at times outnumbered 4:1.  The five (I think) euro prime towers went down, so although we saved nine more later, this was a welp day.

We'll still have a couple of days of sov three if my maths is right (and if Kenny and co don't reinforce more towers tonight on good timers for them), but then unless we kill some of their claiming towers we have at best a couple of days of that before sov goes neutral.

Woops.  Our first loss, which will take some work to turn around in the face of (yes I went there) such a naptrain* :D

This next bit sounds like spin, but it is my honest belief: the fact that sov is only now in doubt after almost exactly a month of fighting, and thatby the time we lose sov there we will have sov three in nine more outpost systems, with sov four counting down in our first constellation sov candidate, is a huge deal.  I suspect that -A- will face some serious threats elsewhere, soon, and kenny will be lost without the constant babysitting that keeps them alive right now.  Even if that Miracle of the House of Brandenburg doesn't happen, we will grind away like this forever, and a lot of the huge numbers yesterday simply won't.  Timezones will let us have our rape days, too, after all, and we showed in VNG, 0O0OO0OOYZ and R2TJ what happens when we decide to actually show up.

So, -A- won a good victory, but I just don't see it as sustainable to rely on every pet turning up like that to turn up and get no fights in order to take almost thirty station systems in the three regions, all of which will have JBs and cyno jammers...  I've been on the receiving end of this sort of system domination before (as has Trevor) and it never lasts.

On a personal level, I got kills, and didn't die despite personal attention on four or five occasions from no less than 150-odd hostiles who were warping in (badly) and trying (horribly) to bump and kill me as I popped five of their bubbles to clear our POS, and sniped claw pilots sitting stationary with their MWDs on or called in DBRB on falcon pilots who thought that me sitting there outside the shields letting them jam me for 2 whole minutes while they were uncloaked and solo at 85km from the shields was anything other than a trap (both falcons who fell for this died to T1 swarms).

I don't get why Kenny and AAA etc didn't clear out the system, though.  Were the situations reversed we'd have killed as many as all ten towers coming out overnight, and won the system on the bounce.  As it was, we were allowed to rep and re-stront, and a potentially campaign-winning opportunity was passed up (sov would have gone neutral today).

*Of course, I believe that assembling that force was a real achievement.  I just think it's richly funny that it was done by those who whine about naptrains and blobfests...

[Murgos]

Mire them down in 49- until Delve is moot is a perfectly fine strategy.  If weeks of pulling in every favor you can so as to stuff a system only gets you more stalemate and no advance, well, those favors won't be worth much soon.

[Meester]

Im wondering if CVA aligned forces will get inviolved in Catch a bit more, like Paxton Federation and Libertas Fidelas.
After all Ushra'khan are actively helping AAA in Querious.

[Predator Irl]

Im wondering if CVA aligned forces will get inviolved in Catch a bit more, like Paxton Federation and Libertas Fidelas.
After all Ushra'khan are actively helping AAA in Querious.

A group of approx 40 (of those we scouted) CVA, Sev3rence & Aegis Militia were in RR- yesterday. We blew up one of their covops pilots, so they turned around and headed in another direction. I don't think we will see too much of them near the FAT area anytime soon.

[trevorreznik]

Had a really late night fight last night, about 135 in local, so no lag at all.  Some random system had a RZR highend moon coming out of reinforced, RZR/GS defending it, and -a-/gkc/etc went up to shoot it.  Unfortunately it was triage repped and restronted, so the strategic goal failed, but we had a pretty fun shootout on top of the POS.   Killed about 6-8 BS and a t2 cruiser or two and some other stuff, lost a t2 cruiser and some other stuff.  I'm waiting on KB links to finalize, the best right now is http://a-kills.com/related.php?id=235735 but is missing some kms.

[Furiously]

I enjoyed warping out and returning to 49- with no issues.

[Meester]

Seems a GoonFleet pos was destroyed in AELE yesterday along with 2 carriers and a rorqual. AAA + allies, KenBobuReloaded and Community formerly known as Greater BoB seem to have been involved.

[Endie]

In all seriousness, was it only two carriers? From the hurf blurf on our forums I thought we'd lost squadrons of the things.

This is the predictable result of our fc for the op sleeping through it...

[Sir T]

Had a really late night fight last night, about 135 in local, so no lag at all.  Some random system had a RZR highend moon coming out of reinforced, RZR/GS defending it, and -a-/gkc/etc went up to shoot it.  Unfortunately it was triage repped and restronted, so the strategic goal failed, but we had a pretty fun shootout on top of the POS.   Killed about 6-8 BS and a t2 cruiser or two and some other stuff, lost a t2 cruiser and some other stuff.  I'm waiting on KB links to finalize, the best right now is http://a-kills.com/related.php?id=235735 but is missing some kms.

I think you are vastly exaggerating the kills and missing a few losses there. Certainly the whole thing didn't even warrent a battle report on the goon board. We had pretty much the entirety of our fleet on the way back.

The fun thing was that as ever we were able to leave and fly back to 49- with no issues whatsoever, bar a dictor that tried to block us wih a bubble and missed completly. I was certain we would be blocked from coming into 49 but nothing.

[Endie]

Actually, following up on the A-E fight, I cannot imagine what would make the FC decide to cyno into a belt, short of getting a cyno from a spy.  But surely no spy would be considered worth burning for such trivial results.  I'm at a loss.  :Goons:

Anyway, I notice that Kenny has spammed what is pretty much the last of the low-hanging fruit: our final sov 1 station system in Querious, which from a very brief look on the maps (I didn't even check jump distances) might make a decent mid-point from 49- to a lot of Delve.  Otherwise it's a horrible position.  This will let them try to maintain some of their momentum, rather than squander it jumping into titans on cyno jammers elsewhere.  I'd have expected (and still do, to be honest) that they'd have gone for for our first sov 4 candidate constellation, though.  Maybe that will be after downtime.

To be honest, it all reminds me of our initial rush on Delve a year and a bit ago, right now.

[trevorreznik]

Had a really late night fight last night, about 135 in local, so no lag at all.  Some random system had a RZR highend moon coming out of reinforced, RZR/GS defending it, and -a-/gkc/etc went up to shoot it.  Unfortunately it was triage repped and restronted, so the strategic goal failed, but we had a pretty fun shootout on top of the POS.   Killed about 6-8 BS and a t2 cruiser or two and some other stuff, lost a t2 cruiser and some other stuff.  I'm waiting on KB links to finalize, the best right now is http://a-kills.com/related.php?id=235735 but is missing some kms.

I think you are vastly exaggerating the kills and missing a few losses there. Certainly the whole thing didn't even warrent a battle report on the goon board. We had pretty much the entirety of our fleet on the way back.

The fun thing was that as ever we were able to leave and fly back to 49- with no issues whatsoever, bar a dictor that tried to block us wih a bubble and missed completly. I was certain we would be blocked from coming into 49 but nothing.

Hard to say on the k/d, goon kb only shows a heretic kill, but -a- kb shows some losses.  The kb had made the battle before all the kills were copied over, so it missed some - we got 7 BS and a logistics ship.  For me, it was the first time in memory I'd had a BS fight where there wasn't any lag, so despite the low number of kills, it was worth mentioning.  Also, I figure the reason the route back wasn't blocked was that we were busy shooting that tower which had already been restronted.

Anyway, I notice that Kenny has spammed what is pretty much the last of the low-hanging fruit: our final sov 1 station system in Querious, which from a very brief look on the maps (I didn't even check jump distances) might make a decent mid-point from 49- to a lot of Delve.  Otherwise it's a horrible position.  This will let them try to maintain some of their momentum, rather than squander it jumping into titans on cyno jammers elsewhere.  I'd have expected (and still do, to be honest) that they'd have gone for for our first sov 4 candidate constellation, though.  Maybe that will be after downtime.

To be honest, it all reminds me of our initial rush on Delve a year and a bit ago, right now.

It's very familiar with the prior invasion, except this one's concentrated on one front.  However, with how bad MC and the non-RZR NC did last year, that was effectively one front as well.

3BK has one other important feature-it's a decent jumpbridge link from delve, specifically from f2o in querious that you reach through npc delve.  If 49-, 5v-, and 3bk lose sov (8qt has already) I think that cuts most bridge routes to querious, making it a bit more annoying to fight over there.  I remember leading countless ops over to a2- and how long it took to get there and back without bridges, so I can understand the reason 3bk is being knocked out.  However, you can still use the upper bridge route of a-b>midpoint>a2- so it's not a huge deal, but that doesn't link up to the station systems very well. 

That a-e fight was quite strange, I couldn't figure out why it was in a belt either.  Sadly, we ran out of dictors, so we couldn't bubble up the dyspro pos nicely and kill the fleet inside of it, almost everyone was able to warp out safely before it popped :(

[Quinton]

oops. wrong thread.