War

[JoeTF]

IainC:
I see that you're CM yourself and I would love to hear what would you do if similar issue showed up in WAR?

Your post might to suggest that CCP:
1) should let it go because it's the goons.
2) should take action if it was anyone else, but shouldn't do a thing to goons.
I'm not sure that's exactly the actions you would take, it would be great if you could clear it out.


LS issue isn't friendly smacking as some people here are trying say. We're talking about endless stream of convos every time she logged, eve-mails, local spam, naming station, spamming shopped, private photos into said local chat and even making new character for sole purpose of avoiding blacklists. All targeted against single person. If that isn't personal harassment, then I don't know what is.

Regarding CCP logic, I guess it was simple get us less work - LS forwarded most of harassment she was getting to GMs in form of petitions and the GMs decided it will be less work to fire e-mail GS CEO than to ban 3000 players. They haven't gone public with it, GS did (which I guess was to be expected).

[Endie]

Like I said: I've never indulged myself in Lady Scarlet insults in local, but she was stupid enough to bring this on herself with her inability not to wallow in the trough of smacktalk herself, and not being able to bear the heavy consequences (which will be worse now, not better) is something she should have considered before she started her gargantuan list of ridiculous complaints and her oleaginous whining.

I entirely agree with you that CCP tried this as a way to slim down their workload.  What they have done is bulked it up.  CCP have said that nothing personal must be said in local: you can bet that the first time a Bob member indulges in a bit of smack with the most tangential connection to real life a hundred goons will petition them, and they will face a ban under this ridiculous "zero tolerance" rule. CCP will face corpulent inboxes bulging with complaints.  I have no doubt that goons will bait Bob members with delciously mockable snippets then wait to see who devours the hook.

I play rugby, and occasionally referee as well. One thing you learn early on is not to get exasperated with persistent offences and say something like "right, the next person to go offside is getting ten minutes in the sinbin", because it is as sure as day follows night that the guy to get caught will be some hapless innocent.

It raises some hefty, even meaty  problems, I admit.  I'd be telling a porky if I pretended it didn't.

[Dallan]

IainC:
I see that you're CM yourself and I would love to hear what would you do if similar issue showed up in WAR?

Your post might to suggest that CCP:
1) should let it go because it's the goons.
2) should take action if it was anyone else, but shouldn't do a thing to goons.
I'm not sure that's exactly the actions you would take, it would be great if you could clear it out.

Full disclosure: I'm not Iain, I'm not a CM, I registered just because this post annoyed me enough, and, to top it off, I fly for GS (though not Goonfleet). So take this with a grain of salt. Also, I should really be out catching a bus.

But seriously, Joe, you're missing his point so badly that it almost has to be deliberate. He's not advocating special treatment for the goons, he's advocating the _absence_ of special treatment, or anything that could be construed that way. The letter to the director was completely unnecessary unless they had actual evidence of it being an organised campaign (hint, it wasn't: goons just like unfunny bandwagons and making people cry. Also, there are a lot of them.), because this could and should have been addressed through normal CS procedures. If that means issuing 3000 bans, then issue 3000 bans, but do it silently, and do it through equal enforcement of the rules that already exist, not creating new ones for one specific member of one specific alliance that you've already been dragged through the mud for inappropriately supporting. It's going to be a CS nightmare, as Endie notes, and it could well be a PR nightmare as well.

[WindupAtheist]

"Hey you Goons, quit picking on this fat internet lady, you're really bothering her!"

Jesus.  It's like CCP wants to torture her.  What were they thinking?

[Hakeldaima]

It raises some hefty, even meaty  problems, I admit.  I'd be telling a porky if I pretended it didn't.

For no reason at all I direct your attention to my avatar picture.

[JoeTF]

I would probably go with 3000 silent bans myself, but on the other hand:
-it's 3000 less paying customers,
-3000 more CS cases and
-chances are behavior in question will not stop
They could make formal announcement on forums, but that would make them look like idiots ("hey, it's 4 year after we wrote the eula and we're finally starting to enforce it!") for not enforcing eula earlier.

Also, goons seem to be the biggest, if not the only perpetrator in this issue so it's not case of CCP going after goons where they could have go after anyone else. As far as I know at least.

As you can see it's not really that obvious, which is why I asked IanC how he would handle it.

WindupAtheist:
It worked. Now the goons are too busy baiting other DICE members to spam LS:P

[IainC]

IainC:
I see that you're CM yourself and I would love to hear what would you do if similar issue showed up in WAR?

Your post might to suggest that CCP:
1) should let it go because it's the goons.
2) should take action if it was anyone else, but shouldn't do a thing to goons.
I'm not sure that's exactly the actions you would take, it would be great if you could clear it out.


LS issue isn't friendly smacking as some people here are trying say. We're talking about endless stream of convos every time she logged, eve-mails, local spam, naming station, spamming shopped, private photos into said local chat and even making new character for sole purpose of avoiding blacklists. All targeted against single person. If that isn't personal harassment, then I don't know what is.

Regarding CCP logic, I guess it was simple get us less work - LS forwarded most of harassment she was getting to GMs in form of petitions and the GMs decided it will be less work to fire e-mail GS CEO than to ban 3000 players. They haven't gone public with it, GS did (which I guess was to be expected).

My post suggested nothing of the kind. if that's what you took away from it then I honestly have no idea how you reached that point.

What I'm saying is that - for reasons already well expounded by others - this is a terrible way to deal with the problem. I'm not denying there might be a problem - I'm not a CCP GM so I don't have any special insight into the situation. I don't fly for a corp affiliated with either GS or BoB. Ive never experienced either the harassment towards LadyScarlet or the smack talking that Endie alleges she specialises in. I have no dog in this race at all.

The way I think I'd probably have dealt with it - assuming I felt it was a genuine issue, there's a lot of smack talk in EvE that is tolerated - would be to make a general post on the news site or some other highly visible place re-iterating the rules of good conduct. I'd then probably back that up with some CS warnings to people who were particularly out of line - not just in this case but in other cases too. Establish a transparent baseline of tolerance to smack and insulting behaviour and slap people who cross it.

That's one way. The other way if you don't think that approach is a good use of time and resources is to talk openly to the GS directors and FCs. Discuss the issue with them, ask them to back off and appeal to their common sense. Explain things are getting out of hand and it's probably for the best if people take a step back. Get them onside rather than dictate to them.

Either of those solutions is a million times better than being seen to make a kneejerk and unenforceable reaction to a highly contentious topic.

Above all I'd recognise that this situation had the potential to become a dramabomb due entirely to the sides involved and therefore needs to be handled sensitively, transparently and with the minimum possible scope for misinterpretation. That clearly hasn't happened.

[ajax34i]

[...] endless stream of convos every time she logged, eve-mails, local spam, naming station, spamming shopped, private photos into said local chat and even making new character for sole purpose of avoiding blacklists. All targeted against single person.

Seen this happening in WoW to a friend of mine. 

You take any male EVE-celebrity, even the ones who have been smacktalking worse than her or making even bigger fools of themselves, and they're not harrassed.  Females, though, always are.

She can block emails and minimize local, and report anything that gets past those lines of defense, and CCP can deal with it.  I feel they should temp-ban those who harrass her; whether they're Goons or not doesn't matter.  Then they should temp-ban her when she smack-talks or harrasses others.  Problem solved.

[bhodi]

Maybe the CM's going to wait a week and then send another email

"HA HA, you all just got trolled. You thought I was serious? Suckers."

[Endie]

"Hey you Goons, quit picking on this fat internet lady, you're really bothering her!"

Jesus.  It's like CCP wants to torture her.  What were they thinking?

You may joke, however, in local at the tail-end of last year one of the GMs said (this is as exact a quote as I can remember):

Lady Scarlet's weight problem is not up for discussion.

At that point I was pretty confident that, amongst the GMs, she was known as an, erm, active customer.

[cmlancas]

This is all fucking stupid. Why, gods, why? How is this any worse than anything that has ever been said to anyone else in EVE?

Oh wait, it isn't. Fuck CCP, just leave it alone. She has reaped what she has sown -- too bad if she doesn't like it. It seems to me that EVE has a certain way of weeding out those who don't belong because they act in a moronic fashion.

The somewhat hilarious smacktalk has been occurring for what, upwards of the entire time that EVE has existed?

Also, goons should shift to standards.jpg instead of "A whale of a time!." It's at least a little more thinly veiled. 

[ClydeJr]

That's one way. The other way if you don't think that approach is a good use of time and resources is to talk openly to the GS directors and FCs. Discuss the issue with them, ask them to back off and appeal to their common sense. Explain things are getting out of hand and it's probably for the best if people take a step back. Get them onside rather than dictate to them.

Didn't they try this once when the goons were spamming fofofofo in local a bunch? The goon-in-charge who they talked to pretty much said "I'm a fat guy playing internet spaceships. You think they're going to listen to me?" I don't think you can really try something like this, especially on a group like the goons who like to cause a ruckus where ever they go. Trying to appeal to their common sense just means painting a target on what you want to protect.

[TheWalrus]

Don't in game mechanics allow you to ignore people? Can you not block contact from other players? And barring that, can't you just suck it up, acknowledge you've been a total git, build a bridge and get over it? Yeesh. Oh yeah, and hippos.

[cmlancas]

Is it true the new GF corp is Hungry Hungry Hippos? 

[IainC]

That's one way. The other way if you don't think that approach is a good use of time and resources is to talk openly to the GS directors and FCs. Discuss the issue with them, ask them to back off and appeal to their common sense. Explain things are getting out of hand and it's probably for the best if people take a step back. Get them onside rather than dictate to them.

Didn't they try this once when the goons were spamming fofofofo in local a bunch? The goon-in-charge who they talked to pretty much said "I'm a fat guy playing internet spaceships. You think they're going to listen to me?" I don't think you can really try something like this, especially on a group like the goons who like to cause a ruckus where ever they go. Trying to appeal to their common sense just means painting a target on what you want to protect.

That isn't really what happened though - at least not if the chat log is to be believed. CCP basically did exactly the same thing that they did about LadyScarlet, they said tell your guys to stop doing it or we'll slap you. That's not really 'getting [the goons] on board'.

I'll accept that drama is the lifeblood of GS and if they can milk a situation for their fix then they will do so, however I think most people can see a difference between spamming some meaningless crap after a kill and actually making personal attacks on an individual.

[Nevermore]

Can't she just close local chat and set her private convo price to like 1 billion isk?  I seem to remember being able to set a price on private conversations in that game.

[amiable]

Regardless of what happens, I suspect BoB is going to ride this PR pony as far as it takes them rather than let it quietly die down.

[cevik]

Regardless of what happens, I suspect BoB is going to ride this PR pony as far as it takes them rather than let it quietly die down.

I don't see where this is good PR for BoB.  From my position (and I'm pretty neutral in this fight), it looks to me like BoB is a bunch of care bear whiners that cry to daddy anytime that things aren't going their way.

PvP has always been about smack talk and dehumanization, crying to the mods just makes you look weak and desperate imho.  In any PvP game I've played, the guy doing the whining is only doing it because they can't exact revenge via the in game mechanic designed for exacting revenge (i.e. they suck at pvp).

Maybe internally this will light a fire under the ass of the BoB pilots and get them ready to roll, but then again, if the initial harassment didn't light that fire, I fail to see where whining to the devs will do any good.

[dingusxavier]

My opinion on the LadyScarlet issue:

LadyScarlet is kind of a bitch. I've seen it in local, I've heard recordings, I've talked to a former BoB member who lists her as a major reason for his leaving.

And given her, er, problem, I feel it was probably a very bad idea for her to hang her (rather voluminous) ass out in such a fashion. In other words, she freaking asked for it. And petitioning will only make it worse.

[Calantus]

You paint such a lovely picture of this lady person that I cannot help but demand pics to confirm that you are not engaging in hyperbole. A recording of sufficient hilarity would also be acceptable, but I imagine that would be harder to procure.

[LC]

You paint such a lovely picture of this lady person that I cannot help but demand pics to confirm that you are not engaging in hyperbole. A recording of sufficient hilarity would also be acceptable, but I imagine that would be harder to procure.

http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/stephaniestout/?action=view&current=regroupatlakemead.jpg

I think dread is one of the Orange Species players.

QD=Lady Scarlet

I have seen worse, but she was asking for it to be honest.

[Nevermore]

Wow, she looks almost exactly like an old boss of mine. 

[ajax34i]

A dozen people at work in the same weight range.

[Endie]

Yep, there is nothing particularly oustanding about her, and she'd never have been a target if she didn't act in such a way that practically begs people to find some reason to villify her.

[Murgos]

Can't she just close local chat and set her private convo price to like 1 billion isk?  I seem to remember being able to set a price on private conversations in that game.

Dude, she could been rich.  Start off with some trivial amount, 1000isk.  Once everyone is in a grove of convoing her and just hitting yeah, yeah to the fee notice bump it up to 100,000,000.

And then just sit and close those chat boxes and chuckle to yourself each time it pops back up.

[ajax34i]

You don't get the money that gets taxed via the convo fee, the NPC's do, supposedly.  It's just a cash sink, for all intents and purposes the ISK disappears.

[Slayerik]

Max fee is 1 mil

[Vedi]

Of course, you can just outright block people, corps or alliances. I had Red Alliance blocked as a whole while we were in -V-  because they sometimes spammed convo and gang invitations. Now I can't figure out how to remove the block :P.

[5150]

Of course, you can just outright block people, corps or alliances. I had Red Alliance blocked as a whole while we were in -V-  because they sometimes spammed convo and gang invitations. Now I can't figure out how to remove the block :P.

Should be a Blocked section in people and places

[Simond]

War update from last night: NOL sieged, ten (of fifteen or so) BoB towers reinforced, unescorted Goon tower-dropping Rorqual popped. o7

Edit: Booya!
VVVVVVVVVVV

[Endie]

Tonight we dined in NOL.

For the last few days, Bob have been taunting us in local about spies, how they knew what we were planning in advance, and their general omnipotence.  Also, they'd set up another F-T honeypot for us in the supercap array there, and loaded everything they had left into the system, waiting for us to launch the attack their spies told them was coming.

Their spies, of course, were wrong: instead, the fleet (minus myself, who cannot stay up past 2am on a weeknight, normally) headed to NOL itself, took down the jammer while Bob sat impotent and confused in completely the wrong place: confused enough that their commander Jake Noble left his recon alt sitting ucloaked at a gate for so long that it was initially suspected to be some sort of cunning trap, and only blown up after several minutes of bemused chuckling.

Anyway, Coalition capital fleets were then cynoed in en masse, where they proceeded to reinforce Bob towers while coalition towers were erected.  A good night.

Dammit, EFB ^^^

[Slayerik]

Yeah, my buddy in MC messaged me outta the blue last night. "Yeah, we're in NOL right now."

and I responded with "Dining I assume!"


Keep up the pain train boys!

[LC]

So is everything in NOL reinforced yet?

[Murgos]

So is everything in NOL reinforced yet?

Sounds like your relief is in sight.

[Slayerik]

RA titan down.