Camelot Unchained

[Fabricated]

Best of all, pledge owner receives INVITATION TO COME HANG OUT WITH CITY STATE ENTERTAINMENT in beautiful downtown Fairfax, Virginia for 3 days including the Camelot Unchained launch party. You must provide your own transportation to our office, but once here, we will pay for your room at a nearby hotel (you are responsible for your own hotel expenses and you must have a valid credit card), transportation to and from the hotel on a daily basis, all of your meals with the team (unless you go off on your own), special email access to the development team, special credit within the game, the manual and anywhere else we have our credits, and on the final day you get to say the magical words “AOT DEKCUS” and throw your choice of fruit pies at Mark Jacobs during your visit (recorded for posterity of course).

We should be able to do this for free.

[Draegan]

I know so many people that are lining up to throw money at this game. It's sad, and when I call them fools, they yell at me like I'm some kind of asshole. They're whole reasoning is "HEY ITS DAOC2! WINKWINK! Mark Jacobs SAID SO almost."

Then they point to the weird principle blog posts like it's some kind of receipt for an awesome game.

Maybe they'll have a kickstarter for their PAX booth.

[Njal]

I really want this to succeed. However I have zero expectation that it will. I won't throw any money at the Kickstarter. If a miracle occurs and it gets made and it's good, I will play it a lot. Not holding my breath though.

[Nebu]

I just enjoy making posts with the word "Kickstarter" in them.  It sends Schild into a frenzy.   

[HaemishM]

They're whole reasoning is "HEY ITS DAOC2!"

Made by the same assholes who fucked it up in the first place. Not sure that should be a ringing endorsement for anything. More like telling your priest you got a dose of the clap.

[Nebu]

The one thing that gives me any hope at all was the fact that WAR was quite fun in the early going.  It had some interesting classes, solid pvp, and a great deal of potential.  If Camelot Unchained was nothing more than WAR with 3 factions, I'd buy it and play the hell out of it for 3 months. 

[Draegan]

Yeah, WAR was fine until they started giving classes options. Jacobs loves the idea of having three realms with each side have different classes.

There's no way he can't fuck up balance.  At all.

This just screams disaster.

edit: What exactly does Counter Revolutionary mean?

[WayAbvPar]

Dump classes. Use skills. Allow players to train skills in whatever order they want. Make balance the player's problem, not the devs.

[Hutch]

Dump classes. Use skills. Allow players to train skills in whatever order they want. Make balance the player's problem, not the devs.

That will work in a PvP game (or RvR, whatever) if you can respec at will. I'm given to understand that respecs will be rare in not-Camelot.

And by "at will" I just mean outside of combat, or only at a trainer npc, or whatever. The point being that there's no limit on how many times you can respec.

That might not be old-school enough for Jacobs though 

[Lantyssa]

We'll call it performance art and one of our stretch goals will fund the egging of Paul Barnett.

This should be the $1 level pledge.

[Sheepherder]

edit: What exactly does Counter Revolutionary mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_in_the_Vendee

[Dark_MadMax]

So I kinda think it will be hard  for this to compete with established market. There are plenty of high quality games - GW2 of course , where WWW while not ideal but still pretty good as far as those things go . And PS2 which is quintessential large scale  .  I mean when DAOC came out it was breaking  new market. When unchained comes out(if it ever does)?  -there are dozens of products in this niche already including the TESO.

[Nebu]

So I kinda think it will be hard  for this to compete with established market. There are plenty of high quality games - GW2 of course , where WWW while not ideal but still pretty good as far as those things go . And PS2 which is quintessential large scale  .  I mean when DAOC came out it was breaking  new market. When unchained comes out(if it ever does)?  -there are dozens of products in this niche already including the TESO.

I disagree.  There isn't a decent fantasy MMO with a PvP core right now so this title has a very real opportunity to fill a much desired niche.  The concern is really in how much they will fuck up the implementation of a game style we'd all like to see.

[Ingmar]

Dozens of products in its niche seems like a massive overstatement, yes.

[Venkman]

There's dozens of niche MMOs that have PvP. That part is valid. But that these represent a sizeable enough market to target with a responsibly-budgeted and produced PvP-focused MMO? Nah.

And that's not even a comment on this yet-another-forgettable-kickstarter.

[Ingmar]

There's dozens of niche MMOs that have PvP. That part is valid. But that these represent a sizeable enough market to target with a responsibly-budgeted and produced PvP-focused MMO? Nah.

And that's not even a comment on this yet-another-forgettable-kickstarter.

Don't confuse PvP and RvR.

[Baldrake]

Did any of you (other than me) try out March on Oz? I picked it up during a $0.99 sale, and was underwhelmed. Very similar to PvZ, but not as good.

This KS will not succeed, by the way. $2 mill is too high.

[UnSub]

As Baldrake indicated: CU Kickstarter aim is for US$2m. One day in and it is a quarter of the way there ($552k).

Gaming, thou art FUCKING BROKEN.

A quick skim of the Kickstarter text:

"Mark" is mentioned about 20 times. It's pretty clear that his reputation is meant to bring the cash flooding in on waves of nostalgia.

They're writing a custom MMO engine for this. That's one of the things that Kickstarter is funding.

If the Kickstarter fails, they'll allegedly cancel CU.

From his days at A.U.S.I. and at Mythic, Mark has preached (sometimes to very deaf ears) the importance of talking with and listening to the players.

Just not on official forums, because those things are terrible. Oh wait, apparently every City State dev will have "a presence" on the forums. That can only end well.

Mark has never been afraid of taking risks, and this is no exception. The money raised from our Kickstarter will be used to fund only a portion of the game’s development costs, and we have already lined up additional sums. These are dependent on us proving to the investors that there is a market for this type of game in today’s very difficult MMORPG climate. With a successful Kickstarter campaign, we`ll prove to them that we have a strong core group of people interested enough in this type of game to back it. Everyone recognizes how difficult it will be to pull this off (and the skepticism is sure to rival what Mythic Entertainment faced in 1999 after announcing Dark Age of Camelot). By putting in $2M of his own money, Mark’s is showing our potential Kickstarter backers that he appreciates the risks you are taking and is willing once again to put his money where his mouth is. Mark’s contribution to this Kickstarter project is more than any other developer he is aware of currently, even those whose financial success dwarfs his own. He believes in this project so much that he willing to risk a significant part of his savings just to make it come true. He will also have an additional update on this issue during the course of this Kickstarter.

Going back, CU has an estimated development budget of US$10m+, so if MJ is stumping up US$2m and the Kickstarter is expected to bring in the same, that means investors are being sought for roughly 50% - 60% of the development budget. Which hardly seems to make CU free of investor interference, which is a claimed reason for CU going down the Kickstarter path. It's almost like Kickstarter acts as some kind of due diligence process for investment consideration: "We like your game idea, but we're only in if you can use free money to fund 20% of your game's costs".

Plus I personally don't get excited by "I'm putting my own money on the line!" when it's MJ's company and he's the one financially benefiting from it. Is it a risk? Sure, but that's every independent video game project.

[Dark_MadMax]

Plus I personally don't get excited by "I'm putting my own money on the line!" when it's MJ's company and he's the one financially benefiting from it. Is it a risk? Sure, but that's every independent video game project.

I am sure MJ is keen and shrewd enough to never invest his own money. He is project manager/producer, he makes things go and spin , if they dont work out -well to bad for investors. If they do - he gets rewarded. Investors risk their money thats what they do (but they dont do actual projects, if they invest in right ones they gain money, they lose for wrong ones)

[Falconeer]

I think threeway PvP is the best way to go next to the Shadowbane/EVE model, so I am happy about more games going this way. But I wouldn't put too much hope into a very-low-budget MMO trying to make it right at this point. There's GW2, there's Planetside 2, there's Tera which is about to get its threeway fix, and of course there is TESO which plans to be more Daoc than this (mostly because it was clearly stated in Camelot Unchained pitch that this is NOT going to be DAOC 2). As much as I hope this will succeed, do you really think that 2, 3 or even 5 million dollars can bring 2002 back?

I mean when DAOC came out it was breaking  new market. When unchained comes out(if it ever does)?  -there are dozens of products in this niche already including the TESO.

I tend to agree with this. Lots of the good memories are about a ten years old model that didn't necessarily aged well. Just DAOC with better graphics wouldn't be so great now, so this game has to expand and improve the formula. Can they pull it off, with that little budget, where GW2 couldn't or where TESO won't?

[Merusk]

I find that post hilarious after your post in the EQ Next thread, Falconeer.

[Falconeer]

Hmm, yeah I see your point. Just to clarify I love everything old and old school. And I love all sorts of retrogaming. I will almost certainly buy Camelot Unchained should it ever get released. I hope it will be able to bring back some old fun, I just doubt it will, because of Jacobs, and because of the lack of money. So yes, I understand why my position and my posts were confusing. I am the first one who hopes for the past to come back and be as good as I remember it. Sadly, I fooled myself enough times to know a little bit better now.

For the record, about Wizardry (and EQ), that's what it is: retro-gaming at its finest, and proudly so. While I don't think this new Camelot product is going down that old alley and I am afraid they won't have the resources to go down any new one. We'll see. It's not like I meant to piss on DAOC's legacy or anything, just saying that by the time this will come out there will be more than one wealthiest competitor probably doing an expanded version of the same thing.

[Draegan]

Lets have a pool to see how much this kickstarter raises. I'm going with 1.15M.

edit:
Also, it's my opinion that hard coded sides in any MMORPG are dumb. Either go free-for all, or make sides flexible after some fashion.

[Nebu]

I think hardcoding sides adds replay value.  Don't like your team?  Reroll!

[Dark_MadMax]

edit:
Also, it's my opinion that hard coded sides in any MMORPG are dumb. Either go free-for all, or make sides flexible after some fashion.

And then you have gw2 release server hopping with 95%/5%/0% scores

[waffel]

Ever since Jay Wilson surfaced I have new respect for Mark Jacobs. He used to be my least liked designer/developer/director/dickhead, not anymore!

[Draegan]

edit:
Also, it's my opinion that hard coded sides in any MMORPG are dumb. Either go free-for all, or make sides flexible after some fashion.

And then you have gw2 release server hopping with 95%/5%/0% scores

Well there are bad ways to do things and good ways to do things.

[Fordel]

The "just do it right" argument. 

[Draegan]

Well if you want to get into an armchair dev argument, you go first.

[Ingmar]

Well if you want to get into an armchair dev argument, you go first.

You already went first.

The reason the "just do it right" argument is pointless is precisely because none of us (mostly anyway) are devs.

[Draegan]

Well if you want to get into an armchair dev argument, you go first.

You already went first.

The reason the "just do it right" argument is pointless is precisely because none of us (mostly anyway) are devs.

Well I never said "just do it right", I just said that GW2 didn't do a very good job of it. I thought RIFT did a pretty decent job of it. Best I've seen anyway if you have to have a three sided contest of sorts.

[Nebu]

Rift and SWTOR both had enjoyable PvP but they were still too gear dependent.  Rift suffered from some serious balance issues as well.  The difficulty with a pvp game is that you need to provide an advancement path that a) won't make the power differential too great and b) won't turn it into a WoW gear-fest.

[Dark_MadMax]

Rift and SWTOR both had enjoyable PvP but they were still too gear dependent.

What?  a few instanced BGs is "enjoyable pvp"?  I mean those 2 games would be among the last on my list as "enjoyable pvp".  RIFT class balance pvp wise was also in the "roflmao" category  .


In any case I thing there are plenty of decent quality pvp now(not neccessarily MMOs/fantasy though)  and there is more to come (archeage ,TESO), market is getting crowded, nostalgia alone won't cut it

[Sparky]

DAOC's pve was bad. GW2 is not.

It wasn't all bad.  I have very fond memories of that dungeon that rotated between the factions.  On a rotation you'd have stealthers of the other faction hiding out, PVPers of our own chasing down reports of enemies and PVEers trying to grab the very nice rewards.  MMOs nowadays tend to be very shy about exposing PVEers to any risk of PVP because sure it's aggravating to have your time wasted by an internet psycho, but it did add a frisson to the grind.  Long as the rewards make up for the added risk it's a nice option I think.

Lately I've been playing a new pre-trammel UO free shard and it's reminded me how fun dangerous PVE can be.  Rage quit a couple of times having been ganked though ;)

[Rasix]

PVE

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.