SWTOR

[Merusk]

You missed one Sam.

- Star Wars fans who'll buy any old Star Wars game, no matter how awful.

I'm guilty of the above. Hell, I even enjoyed Rebellion and the horrible 3x game whose name escapes me back in the day. 

I'm a horrible, horrible person.

[luckton]

/delurk

Here's where I am since I last commented on this: MMO's are a step below even Caveat Emptor. Buyer has to do more than beware; they have to assume that any product in the genre is absolute shit until proven otherwise. And the burden of proof required to show that the game is breaking a ruefully predictable trend is high enough that it leads me to discourage practically ANY early adoption, no matter how much you want to be in on the ground floor.

Yet what I've seen is looking pretty good to me, enough that I think there's a much better than half chance that I'll be persuaded enough to sign on as an early adopter when the game comes out. This is a perspective that's been fed into by NDA-breaching stuff, and I don't know to what degree I can or should now separate the sources of my impressions.

I think my biases 'in favor' are fairly similar to other people who are the most interested in SWTOR's development.

- Really wants an MMO in the sci-fi fantasy-ish realm or anything which breaks competently from the whole swords-and-sorcery genre
- Which is translating roughly to, 'whether they know it or not, what they really want is WoW in Space'
- Just like the star wars franchise and iconography and desire an mmo where you get to fight with lightsabers and blasters and shit
- and, per usual, if they played SWG, they thought it was a pile of shoddy bullshit, and figure this is the last real shot at it

I consider myself very skeptical. I still like what I'm looking at here. I'm at least optimistic. They really, really better not fuck this up.

I agree with this, and am right there with you in regards to picking it up.  The gamer in me wants a good sci-fi MMO so badly, even if it is Star Wars, and there's a lot of good things going for this game that I hope it succeeds.  And all the other goods points have been mentioned numerous times before.

I just have no faith in EA.

It's like you've got a best friend who has 'one of those' kinds of fathers.  You know, the one that doesn't give a crap and senselessly beats whatever's in their path when it's drinking night (which is almost every night).  You have such great times with your best friend, but you know one of these days you may just never see your friend again, because their father went overboard and did something stupid.

They can go up and down all day about how the relationship between EA and BW isn't anything like what EA had with Westwood with E&B, or even the same thing when Mythic got assimilated with WAR.  I don't care.  EA is a terrible father when it comes to MMOs, and my biggest fear isn't that the game won't make good on giving me a great first day impression, or being able to retain me with all of it's dazzling content and gameplay...it's that EA's gonna go drinking one night, and it'll all be downhill from there.

[Koyasha]

I think the thread died because everyone watched the video and the discussion is on hold until they lift the nda.

I wonder how common or rare my own attitude about following games like this is.  When I have not decided whether I like a game or not, I tend to show great interest in the pre-release phase and seek out much information.  But when I know I am going to purchase it (like for example, it's made by BioWare), I don't really show much interest until it's released.  I know I'm going to buy it, I don't need to seek out any more information on it, so I don't particularly care to watch promotional videos or beta leaks or anything else.

[Paelos]

You missed one Sam.

- Star Wars fans who'll buy any old Star Wars game, no matter how awful.

I'm guilty of the above. Hell, I even enjoyed Rebellion and the horrible 3x game whose name escapes me back in the day. 

I'm a horrible, horrible person.

I loved Rebellion. I loaded it up several times later on every computer I owned. It was the closest I've come to a true Total War meets Star Wars game that I've really wanted.

[Murgos]

I think the thread died because everyone watched the video and the discussion is on hold until they lift the nda.

I wonder how common or rare my own attitude about following games like this is.  When I have not decided whether I like a game or not, I tend to show great interest in the pre-release phase and seek out much information.  But when I know I am going to purchase it (like for example, it's made by BioWare), I don't really show much interest until it's released.  I know I'm going to buy it, I don't need to seek out any more information on it, so I don't particularly care to watch promotional videos or beta leaks or anything else.

I've actually decided that I don't want to beta MMO's anymore they spoil me for the game itself.  So, although I will follow pre-release material I typically wait a couple of weeks after release before trying it out, if the word of mouth is any good.

That said, I am signed of for SW:TOR beta.

[Nebu]

I've actually decided that I don't want to beta MMO's anymore they spoil me for the game itself. 

I'm with you here.  I've already decided that I'm going to give this a try at release anyway, so I don't want to spoil any surprises. 

[Rasix]

You missed one Sam.

- Star Wars fans who'll buy any old Star Wars game, no matter how awful.

I'm guilty of the above. Hell, I even enjoyed Rebellion and the horrible 3x game whose name escapes me back in the day. 

I'm a horrible, horrible person.

I loved Rebellion. I loaded it up several times later on every computer I owned. It was the closest I've come to a true Total War meets Star Wars game that I've really wanted.

Yah, I loved that game too.  Nothing like weighing the decision to completely destroy a rebel planet v. the universal reputation hit. 

If I even get into the SWTOR beta, it'll just be me trying to pick what class I want to play and then just enough past that to determine if it's completely awful or not. Once I knew what Rift was and found a class I liked, I completely stopped playing the beta.

[K9]

Rebellion was a really great game; I'd happily see them remake it as Star Wars: Total War or whatever.

[Merusk]

Wow, I think that's the most love I've ever seen for Rebellion.  It usually gets groans and complaints about the interface.   I don't see how it'd segue into a Total:War game, though.  It was much more like MOO with the space combat aspects, etc.  I guess it could work though.

The other game I was thinking of was Force Commander. 

[Fordel]

Last Starwars game I played... Republic Commando, I really like that game, still break it out every so often for a replay. One of the few squad games I've played where my squad mates aren't totally pants on head retarded.

[Paelos]

Wow, I think that's the most love I've ever seen for Rebellion.  It usually gets groans and complaints about the interface.   I don't see how it'd segue into a Total:War game, though.  It was much more like MOO with the space combat aspects, etc.  I guess it could work though.

The other game I was thinking of was Force Commander. 

TW:KOTOR would be pretty easy to do. Instead of cities, you'd have planets. Instead of territories, you'd have connected systems. I think it would work best in the KOTOR world where you could recruit random generals to support your armies, and have jedi and sith agents you recruit to take over the galaxy. Upgrade planets, support the Sith, Hutts, Republic, or other factions.

[Samprimary]

Wow, I think that's the most love I've ever seen for Rebellion.  It usually gets groans and complaints about the interface. 

My friend loves rebellion, but none of the rest of us had the patience to navigate its interface. But he perservered, and the end result was probably the best stories.

In his most epic game, a trainee of darth vader shows up to murder Bren Derlin, head of echo base security, a.k.a. 'just some guy,' Bren murders him and turns out to be force sensitive and the most comically brutal force user on the planet. He was secretly goku. He wasn't reliable at missions that weren't 'fucking murder everyone' which was odd for a force user, Bren was just uncontainably powerful. And also incorruptable. He was liek this cheery, nice guy with a 'stache who we sent off to brutalize darth vader and the emperor at once (and he did, without even breaking a sweat).

Hey bren, the imperials are attacking! Do you think you can single-handedly murder all of them?



Hey sure thing buddy! Noooo problemmo.

To this day we maintain it as canon.

[Mnemon]

No it's nothing official, just some guy playing a low level character like anyone else would do, which seems to include getting up to go get a refreshing beverage now and again since he just stands there for a couple minutes sometimes.  The purpose doesn't even seem to be just to screw over his nda either since it doesn't show character creation and some of the more important menus.

I don't really know what he was thinking, he has his damn nameplate turned on above his character the whole time so EA will know who it is and at a minimum kick him out of alpha/beta/whatever-it-is.

he released two videos. one is just the jedi knight stuff. the other does have him creating a brand new Sith Inquisitor and walking through all the steps, class/race combos, etc.

he was supposedly posting on one of the sites that leaked the videos and he said he basically bought the beta key from somebody, figured he'd get caught sooner or later, so he took one for the team so to speak.

honestly i'm amazed the video lasted as long as it did on justin.tv. Bioware/EA are usually super quick at getting stuff taken down.

[Mnemon]

/delurk

Here's where I am since I last commented on this: MMO's are a step below even Caveat Emptor. Buyer has to do more than beware; they have to assume that any product in the genre is absolute shit until proven otherwise. And the burden of proof required to show that the game is breaking a ruefully predictable trend is high enough that it leads me to discourage practically ANY early adoption, no matter how much you want to be in on the ground floor.

Yet what I've seen is looking pretty good to me, enough that I think there's a much better than half chance that I'll be persuaded enough to sign on as an early adopter when the game comes out. This is a perspective that's been fed into by NDA-breaching stuff, and I don't know to what degree I can or should now separate the sources of my impressions.

I think my biases 'in favor' are fairly similar to other people who are the most interested in SWTOR's development.

- Really wants an MMO in the sci-fi fantasy-ish realm or anything which breaks competently from the whole swords-and-sorcery genre
- Which is translating roughly to, 'whether they know it or not, what they really want is WoW in Space'
- Just like the star wars franchise and iconography and desire an mmo where you get to fight with lightsabers and blasters and shit
- and, per usual, if they played SWG, they thought it was a pile of shoddy bullshit, and figure this is the last real shot at it

I consider myself very skeptical. I still like what I'm looking at here. I'm at least optimistic. They really, really better not fuck this up.

I agree with this, and am right there with you in regards to picking it up.  The gamer in me wants a good sci-fi MMO so badly, even if it is Star Wars, and there's a lot of good things going for this game that I hope it succeeds.  And all the other goods points have been mentioned numerous times before.

I just have no faith in EA.

It's like you've got a best friend who has 'one of those' kinds of fathers.  You know, the one that doesn't give a crap and senselessly beats whatever's in their path when it's drinking night (which is almost every night).  You have such great times with your best friend, but you know one of these days you may just never see your friend again, because their father went overboard and did something stupid.

They can go up and down all day about how the relationship between EA and BW isn't anything like what EA had with Westwood with E&B, or even the same thing when Mythic got assimilated with WAR.  I don't care.  EA is a terrible father when it comes to MMOs, and my biggest fear isn't that the game won't make good on giving me a great first day impression, or being able to retain me with all of it's dazzling content and gameplay...it's that EA's gonna go drinking one night, and it'll all be downhill from there.

Lets not forget LucasArts. They are at least 50 percent responsible for the problems with SWG. If not more.

Not a lot of MMO success on either of their Wikipedia pages.

Which leads to my question. (And I hate saying this outloud because it makes me throw up in my mouth.)

EA and LucasArts most certainly have WoW-envy. It's part of what killed SWG, and lead to a lot of bad Warhammer decisions.

Lets say its six months out. TOR is doing well. Say in the 500,000/750,000 subscriber range.

But it isn't really challenging WoW or in the same ballpark - its at the top of all games not named WoW in North America.

EA and LA start getting antsy, pushing for changes.

Does Bioware have the balls, smarts and authority to hold the other two at bay and not have their game ruined by knee-jerk decisions made just with subscriber numbers in mind?

[Sky]

Balls and smarts have 0.0 to do with that decision.

[VainEldritch]

From what I've seen of this game (everything out there, I think), SW:TOR may well do something that I never would have expected - or believed. In a twisted way this game could make me gald the NGE happened...

  

[Rasix]

Nice sentence, bro.

[VainEldritch]

Nice sentence, bro.

Tightened it up just for you...

 

[Paelos]

And yet, it's still not quite there.

[Samprimary]

Does Bioware have the balls, smarts and authority to hold the other two at bay and not have their game ruined by knee-jerk decisions made just with subscriber numbers in mind?

Can't bioware just say something like 'we feel our business program will be best served by an organic evolution of its offerings versus WoW'

or, failing that, just point at NGE and say NO SUDDEN CHANGES THANKS.

oh, probably not

[carnifex27]

I think you misunderstand the problems with the NGE from LucasArts point of view.  It clearly would have been succesful if they had just implemented it sooner 

[Venkman]

When I have not decided whether I like a game or not, I tend to show great interest in the pre-release phase and seek out much information.  But when I know I am going to purchase it (like for example, it's made by BioWare), I don't really show much interest until it's released.  I know I'm going to buy it, I don't need to seek out any more information on it, so I don't particularly care to watch promotional videos or beta leaks or anything else.

I've actually decided that I don't want to beta MMO's anymore they spoil me for the game itself.  So, although I will follow pre-release material I typically wait a couple of weeks after release before trying it out, if the word of mouth is any good.

Pretty much in the same boat. But also, I don't really follow this shit anymore because either I've either been there and don't have the lifestyle to live at the cap, it's not different enough to be sticky for me or it's too different to have gotten sufficient resources to be done well. Have grown real tired of spending money on crappy and incomplete. And as far as I'm concerned, f2p is either a desperate attempt one arrives at to keep something alive beyond it's natural death or it's for lighter faire games even closer to actual slot machines than the slightly-thicker veneers I've played.

So I'll buy SWTOR for the sheer spectacle of a huge game with a huge budget and an IP I still like. And because it doesn't look like it sucks.

[Sky]

There lurks in the shadows of original Vision the promise of a solid Journey game, which seems to be on the Altar of Destination, poised to have its heart ripped out and thrown to the ravenous hordes to quickly consume before returning to their squalid huts.

I, too, no longer have the lifestyle to live 'at the cap', and in reality I haven't since Britannia ruled these seas. I question both the design that supports it and the people who rush single-mindedly past all the beauty and knowledge arrayed before them to jadedly complain how little there is to do, while repeatedly grinding away at a small nugget of the total content to eke out the last bits of statistical improvement.

My hope is that the heartless corpse, that lies bleeding its story out upon the warm rock Altar in the fading sunlight, will provide enough unmitigated enjoyment for those such as ourselves. Those lost in a world that once held so much promise only to be distilled down to the most elemental doppleganger.

[eldaec]

There are a fair number of people in this thread who seem to have forgotten that pre-NGE-SWG was also shit.

[Surlyboi]

There are a fair number of people in this thread who seem to have forgotten that pre-NGE-SWG was also shit.

No, pre NGE SWG wasn't shit. It was deeply a deeply flawed, half-baked mess, but it wasn't shit.

[Merusk]

There are a fair number of people in this thread who seem to have forgotten that pre-NGE-SWG was also shit.

There's a lot of former UO players for whom SWG was, apparently, the bees knees.

I, on the other hand, agree with you. Which would be why I only played for about 5-6 months.  Because I'm a SW Junkie.

[Simond]

There are a fair number of people in this thread who seem to have forgotten that pre-NGE-SWG was also shit.

No, pre NGE SWG wasn't shit. It was deeply a deeply flawed, half-baked mess, but it wasn't shit

It also wasn't a game.

[Lantyssa]

I was fine with that.

[Xuri]

It was more of a game pre-NGE than Eve is today :P

[Sky]

As a pre-NGE rifleman, SWG was shit. I'll grant the social/tradeskill parts were awesome. But the combat sucked. HAM. Lest we forget.

Had way more fun in combat with the NGE, even if I missed the other stuff. But I'm one of the few (only?) NGE fans. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than the original combat implementation.

[Malakili]

As a pre-NGE rifleman, SWG was shit. I'll grant the social/tradeskill parts were awesome. But the combat sucked. HAM. Lest we forget.

Had way more fun in combat with the NGE, even if I missed the other stuff. But I'm one of the few (only?) NGE fans. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than the original combat implementation.

You've hit on something here, which is how much combat matters.  In a game like pre-NGE Galaxies, the best part was the fact that combat didn't need to play a central role necessarily.  If I want good combat, the LAST genre I'm going to is an RPG of any kind most likely, so tanking other systems in favor of improvements to combat is generally going to annoy me since its precisely in the non-combat features that MMORPGs actually have an advantage over other genres.

Thats a me issue I guess, but whatever, just thought I'd jump in and say my piece.

[kaid]

SWG had a few cases that showed clearly that being innovative is not always a good thing. The HAM system was one of the silliest ideas ever. You could have three people in a group attacking one target and not have it drop any faster than any one of those people could do it solo. The HAM system actively worked against grouping and made combat a hopeless boring mess. While a MMO does not need the most active uber combat system SWG's was terribad. I got a good year out of it enjoying the social aspect of the game until the holocron shit started which totally destroyed the fun of the more social character classes by making everybody and their brother need to grind the fuck out of them with macros so in a stage full of people there was nobody to talk to.

[SnakeCharmer]

cue Raph saying "BUT HAM NEVER WORKED RIGHT"

[Paelos]

Why do I have 3 health bars?

WHY! 

[palmer_eldritch]

Yes HAM was terrible, but vanilla SWG as a whole was great and the spectacles get more rose-tinted as time goes by.

More rose-tinted because it's becoming increasingly clear that us UO/sandbox people that we may never get another game made for us, at least not by a fully-professional studio with a decent budget to spend.

SWG was the nearest thing we got to UO 2.0, and it's just now sinking in that UO 3.0 may never happen. So don't knock that game, it's important to some of us