State of The Game - Mark Jacobs

[Sjofn]

My new favorite post:

You know ... I looked at the "f13 guys/gals" website yesterday. And ... wow .. what a bunch of whining, prattling children! MMO 'veterans' my a$$. All you have over there are hardcore MMO 'grinders' and gold farmers.

I've been playing MMO's/MUD's for nearly two decades, and these 'kids' at f13 don't remind me of anyone from my Me59, UO, Avalon, etc. days. At best, they've played Shadowbane, DAoC and WoW--and think they have the authority to tell every other MMO gamer what to think. It's pretty damn hilarious, to be honest.

If MJ doesn't want to post here, that's fine: He's only shooting himself in the foot, however, by doing so.

GUYS, STOP GOLD FARMING. JESUS.

From: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158809&highlight=14972&page=7

That post is magnificent.

[Nonentity]

I can't stop gold farming, okay? Respeccing is EXPENSIVE.

[Khaldun]

When you see the Buddha in the road,

remember to loot his corpse.

[Lum]

Well, he's right, I *have* played Shadowbane, DAOC and WoW.

[Sjofn]

Well, he's right, I *have* played Shadowbane, DAOC and WoW.

I haven't played Shadowbane. I am incomplete. :(

[Azazel]

Just found this awesome board!
Yeah I'm one of those new comer slap me etc...
Just wanted to say that reading all this crap made me laugh numerous times.  (wow your smiley selection rock)
Did not figure yet who is the saddest tho ! Guess I'll hang around a bit longer if I'm allowed.

Oh and just wanted to add that the slayer does not make sense to be added in the game. A slayer is supposed to be a dwarf who, and here i quote wikipedia, "suffered a great shame, loss or humiliation" and "He will then go out into the world, seeking out an honorable death in combat". This game is based on an IP which it must follows so I doubt that Gameworkshop will allow that.

Fuck Wikipedia. If you're familiar enough with the IP (which I am) I can't see any legit reason that Slayers don't fit this game ferpectly. Approval from GW? $$$=approval from GW. Well, £££ to be more exact.

[Azazel]

Did that one guy mean "stone cold TROLL TURDS"?  because "trolls tards" isn't making any sense to me.  He must have meant "troll turds".  I'm sure of it.  Anyway, hello to all the new people!   Please stay!   

I miss thejeni.  Maybe these are her heavy hitters.

You are mixing board mythology!  "Heavy hitters" was some other retard whose name escapes me at the moment.  He wasn't quite at the level of the Big Four (itchees, thejeni, Vajuras, Grunk, I'd add $P$Money but thats before this board's time) but he was close.  Damn, now I won't be able to sleep until I find the original reference.   

Big four? I mean, thejeni, Vajuras, and Grunk I'll pay.

But itchees? No way! Fuck man, he was just a sanded-down speedbump in one thread. I didn't even get to experience his stupidity.

Poseidon gave us a meme, he's clearly above itchypants in the hierachy of amusing stupid.

[tommh]

I got to experience a special kind of hell today with my Engineer Alt.  I queued up and oddly enough Phoenix popped up.  I joined, only to find myself 8 minutes in to Destruction Curb Stomping.  They had two premade groups of mostly level 17+.  The nice touch was the four level 20+ sorcs  supported by two DOKs and a Shaman circled around the order flag.  They didn't even bother to guard their own since they just killed the flag bearer when he came running up to the order end.  Every couple minutes they'd send the order flag off in the hands of level 21 BO escorted by a dedicated healer a couple marauders and a Witch Elf.  The really cool part was that the next two times the scenario popped it was basically the same story.  Fortunately lunch time ended and I had to get back to work.

I would expect this to become more and more common. One of the reasons Mythic is worried about scenarios dominating RvR has nothing to do with player base fragmentation. Instead it is the bane of online PVP (especially if their is a skill component): the "not enough losers" problem.
People hate losing more then they hate wining. People who lose the least tend to keepd doing that thing while people who lose alot tend to quit. This has a constant evolutionary effect on the player base, decreasing the number of players who are "competitive" (since the bar keeps rising) and also raising the bar to entry for the same reason.

If scenarios remain/become the center of RvR, WaR will be in serious trouble.

Edit by Trippy: fixed your quoting

[Nebu]

I would expect this to become more and more common. One of the reasons Mythic is worried about scenarios dominating RvR has nothing to do with player base fragmentation. Instead it is the bane of online PVP (especially if their is a skill component): the "not enough losers" problem.
People hate losing more then they hate wining. People who lose the least tend to keepd doing that thing while people who lose alot tend to quit. This has a constant evolutionary effect on the player base, decreasing the number of players who are "competitive" (since the bar keeps rising) and also raising the bar to entry for the same reason.

If scenarios remain/become the center of RvR, WaR will be in serious trouble.

Your point has been discussed at length here.  Think about your point again, this time with FPS games being the focus instead of an MMO.  People only hate losing when they're punished severely for it.  People also hate losing if they have no way to improve their odds of winning.  In an FPS, there is almost no penalty for losing and playing more increases skil (read: win-loss ratio). 

If you prefer to keep the discussion on an MMO, players improve their chances by getting better gear and higher reknown rank or by joining an established guild.   As long as the death penalty stays as trivial as it is currently and players stand to improve through time-related mechanisms, you'll still see many players remain even if their win-loss ratio stinks.  Open RvR allows for numbers to overcome skill.  Level allows for the same.  At the endgame, it will be fun + small death penalty that will keep even the worst players interested, especially if they see marginal gains due to gear and reknown along the way.

[Paelos]

I would like to see both scenarios in WAR and bgs in WoW have a stiffer respawn penalty. One minute should be the minimum in my view, because anything less just creates situations where you just killed somebody, only to have them be right back in your face the next second. It also throws a lot of tactics or smart play out the window because you can suicide into groups with almost no downtime.

[Sjofn]

I would like to see both scenarios in WAR and bgs in WoW have a stiffer respawn penalty. One minute should be the minimum in my view, because anything less just creates situations where you just killed somebody, only to have them be right back in your face the next second. It also throws a lot of tactics or smart play out the window because you can suicide into groups with almost no downtime.

Oh God, please no. Thirty seconds feels like an eternity already. Make it so I respawn further away or something, but don't make me stare at my dead body for even longer.

[Nebu]

I would like to see both scenarios in WAR and bgs in WoW have a stiffer respawn penalty. One minute should be the minimum in my view, because anything less just creates situations where you just killed somebody, only to have them be right back in your face the next second. It also throws a lot of tactics or smart play out the window because you can suicide into groups with almost no downtime.

I think the better way to implement this is to have rapid respawn times, but have the respawn location some distance from the playing field.  That way the player is actively engaged (albeit with travel), but still takes time x to get back into the fray.


Note: Sjofn beat me to it by seconds...

[Miasma]

I wonder who the new Andy_Mythic red name is up there and if he will rate as much frothing at the mouth as the rest of the new registrations coming in for slaughter.  I need more entertainment, we haven't even seen a terribly misguided introduction thread from one of the new crazy people yet.

Unless he wants a bunch of lunatics emailing him he should probably hide his email address, I'm also not sure how Andy comes out of what appears to be first_initial_last_name@ea.com.

[Arthur_Parker]

Heh, I get annoyed because I spawn facing the wrong direction, you guys want more downtime?

[HaemishM]

Fuck the spawn timer getting longer. I'd really like it if the spawn point wasn't in some place that required me to take 1/3 of my hit points in falling damage just to get into the action area.

[squirrel]

Heh, I get annoyed because I spawn facing the wrong direction, you guys want more downtime?

You know what? This annoys the hell out of me and I can't really figure out why. It's not a big deal at all but I curse everytime. And I'm not even mildly OCD.

[Nebu]

Heh, I get annoyed because I spawn facing the wrong direction, you guys want more downtime?

I just want enough downtime to ensure that when I kill the same player repeatedly that I continue to get full reknown for them.  

[tommh]

I agree Nebu and I understand that Mythic is attacking the problem from many directions (low death penalties being a good example). Whether in the end it will be enough in the long term is anybodies guess but I believe they have a good game plan. I was just pointing out that the scenarios due to their nature are morevulnurable to this problem do to the clear winners/losers breakdown and the general "sports like" setup.

 

[FrogSkin]

Bland starfucking.

Also, really, signing your post and the same thing in your sig? Go away.

[veredus]

I can't stop gold farming, okay? Respeccing is EXPENSIVE.

Sorry not to derail with a serious question, but what does respeccing cost?

[Nebu]

I agree Nebu and I understand that Mythic is attacking the problem from many directions (low death penalties being a good example). Whether in the end it will be enough in the long term is anybodies guess but I believe they have a good game plan. I was just pointing out that the scenarios due to their nature are morevulnurable to this problem do to the clear winners/losers breakdown and the general "sports like" setup.

I'm not suggesting that my thoughts on the matter were the only options, rather that there are many things to consider when it comes to what retains the playerbase.  Personally, I don't mind losing more than winning so long as the losing is still fun.  When losing becomes so penal that it feels like a kick in the nads, there's not much incentive to head back to the playing field.  

[Zira]

I would like to see both scenarios in WAR and bgs in WoW have a stiffer respawn penalty. One minute should be the minimum in my view, because anything less just creates situations where you just killed somebody, only to have them be right back in your face the next second. It also throws a lot of tactics or smart play out the window because you can suicide into groups with almost no downtime.

no way.... Play as a Witch Elf and see if you still think this.  Witch Elf is a behind the lines class... we die lots already.

[frogskin]

That's not how it works around here, hombre. Read the stickies.

[Nija]

I hope they release a goldrush-style scenario when they release the "Meet the Witch Hunter" movie. That'll add some much needed variety to the four forms of murderball.

[veredus]

Personally, I don't mind losing more than winning so long as the losing is still fun.

Some of the most fun I have had is when when it has come down to the wire. Win or lose.

[Maladee]

I would expect this to become more and more common. One of the reasons Mythic is worried about scenarios dominating RvR has nothing to do with player base fragmentation. Instead it is the bane of online PVP (especially if their is a skill component): the "not enough losers" problem.
People hate losing more then they hate wining. People who lose the least tend to keepd doing that thing while people who lose alot tend to quit. This has a constant evolutionary effect on the player base, decreasing the number of players who are "competitive" (since the bar keeps rising) and also raising the bar to entry for the same reason.

If scenarios remain/become the center of RvR, WaR will be in serious trouble.

 

*makes confused faces @tommh*  Uhh, what?  I *think* what you just said is "losers quit when they lose and this causes evolution".  Am I close? 

I can't stand the tedium of doing the same scenarios over and over again (win or lose) while trying to grind out a level so the mobs in the next zone up are equal or challenging con to my toon, BUT even when Order loses non-stop for the dumbest of reasons (get the dude with the thing!), I know I will still get 2 hits of quest XP each time (PK + Scenario quests).  I haven't noticed an amazingly significant difference between winning and losing (insofar as XP gain goes) because if I have to grind it out to be able to go on to the next zone successfully, I just sit and read a book while standing at the WarMaster waiting for scenario pops.  That being said, the moment I hear about a keep/objective take, I haul ass to join the warband even if it's not the best XP.  Fun != Monotony...or something.  Math never was my strong suit. 

That being said, I still can't figure out if I agree with you or not!  Scenarios can be mindless, tab-targeting, pot-draining time-sinks, but you can see your progress a bit more readily (while leveling).  I don't imagine that when enough people hit 40 that scenarios will truly be an issue.  Once you're in the "big boy" range, we'll be out in open field on a regular basis, right?  Rather like DAoC where people did Molvik and such to cap out then got a PL to 50 to go stand at the PKs and spam "LFG" in region chat.  I suppose the difference here is that you get RPs regardless just by being on the scene in WAR.  Hell, you can wander up after the keep has been taken and get a fat RP chunk just for being there at the changeover, all without ever having seen an enemy.  You don't get heals in a scenario (generally speaking) and so it shouldn't be a shock when you don't get heals in open field, so no point in NOT running out to see what's up at a keep/objective when you see things on fire.

I haven't seen too many 40s in scenarios...I'm keeping my fingers crossed that if I can just suck it up and grind it out a wee bit longer, I won't have to queue on my main ever again.



Oooh and did anyone else get a visual while reading the SotG of MJ as Mr. Cheezle (from Grandma's Boy) saying "Good things are coming!  Good things!"?  Maybe I'm just twisted.   

[tommh]

Well the thing is for a certain type of player what you see as monotony is what they see as a level playing field. Its like saying why play chess or basketball when the board or court never changes?  The nature of online games makes it easier for a specific pool of players to keep getting better and better as the average player's skill level increases. This is because better players tend to stay/play more while ooprer players tend to leave/play less. Of course as you play more in general your skills also tend to improve.

Open RvR is much less susceptable to this, since it has long term goals and non-zero sum outcomes. For example your goal may be to hold your keep and stop the zone from flipping while your opponent may be trying to distract you from reinforcing another keep (or simply looking for kills). In RVR you can both succeed to lesser and greater extents

[Xuri]

Heh, I get annoyed because I spawn facing the wrong direction, you guys want more downtime?

But... but... don't you know that one of the Laws of Online World Design states: Socialization Requires Downtime ?

[Maladee]

But... but... don't you know that one of the Laws of Online World Design states: Socialization Requires Downtime ?

Ooh Xuri...good point!  Socialization means whining in /sc about how everyone else is doing it wrong and other such nonsense like "zomg wru healz!??!" and "u guyz suck!!eleventy!11!", right?      Personally, I spend my 30 seconds of downtime screaming at a box of kittens after the same WE has chased me down to kill me 5x in a row no matter what I did to get away.  Does that make me anti-social?    

[tommh]

not if your a kitten

[schild]

You made it to 8 posts, don't forget your shift key now. Comeon.

[Molsen]

Mark,

I had a post here. But I am a tool. It is gone now. And so am I.

Love, Molsen

[Ingmar]

Yay, I finally hit refresh fast enough to see a wall of text pre-ban!

[Soln]

an other brick in the wall

[Sparky]

What exactly is starfucking?