State of The Game - Mark Jacobs

[Lakov_Sanite]

This Thread

tdl;dr

[Nebu]

Christ... I leave for the weekend and come back to this? 

I like Mark a lot, but if ever there was a case for having an official forum, this would be it.   

[schild]

Surgery inc. Nerf the admin.

[schild]

If you don't read the following thread before you post, well, you deserve whatever fate comes to you. This is not WHA, the Vault, or your mom's book club. Mark wasn't here for you. It's OK to watch and speculate and be entertained or even angry, but it's not OK to starfuck.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15001.0

Get it? NO STARFUCKING.

[waylander]

I understand MJ can't walk in, snap his fingers, and make everything ok in 2 seconds. However those of us who tried to make a case in beta for more organized groups/guild testing while also bringing more guilds in to provide a healthy population were mercilessly crushed by the CM's on the Mythic forums. I made posts elsewhere on the board about the benefits that organized group/guild testing would have provided, but I do think it would have caught a lot of issues if at least 1 live server type of environment could have been simulated long enough.

Anyway I think Schild summed up the big points that we've all been saying here. I also see where the WoW kiddies might be better fans of scenarios, and that this game needs to appeal to a variety of users. One thing I liked about DAOC was that it had Towers and Keeps. Smaller guilds could own Towers so there was usually some action in the RVR zones because of that. A smaller guild might not bother with a Keep because they don't have the manpower to take it, hold it, or pay the upkeep on it.

I'll refrain from any other comments until I see what Mythic is doing to beef up RVR except to say that they have got to beef up the exp for PVE'ing.  T1 is fun, T2-T3 isn't, and T4 PVE is bearable but filled with long runs. Without good or FAST PVE, then there isn't much to fall back on when scenarios/RVR ain't happening.

[Arthur_Parker]

According to EuroGamer.

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

"Well, one of them we hope to put back in," Mark Jacobs told Eurogamer and GamesIndustry.biz when he spoke to us last week.

"I can't tell you which yet, that's a surprise. We're probably going to be replacing one and putting in another class in its place. But we'll be talking about that in a few months."

Don't think I noticed that before.

[Lakov_Sanite]

In all honesty I think calling fans of wow-style battlegrounds or scenario's 'wow-kiddies' is a misnomer. I think there is a market for instant gratification sport pvp that was there before wow existed and they were simply the first to actually tap into that.

One of the biggest problems scenario's in war have is that you end up doing the same one over and over per teir and usually >100 times. So you get sick of them but they are simply the fastest way to level atm.

Sport pvp has a place in all mmo's to some extent and it's not exclusive to wow players. I think this is the biggest mistake, associating the two things and may possibly lead to an exclusion of large portion of possible players.

Oh, right...back to your vault wackiness.

[Hayduke]

According to EuroGamer.

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

"Well, one of them we hope to put back in," Mark Jacobs told Eurogamer and GamesIndustry.biz when he spoke to us last week.

"I can't tell you which yet, that's a surprise. We're probably going to be replacing one and putting in another class in its place. But we'll be talking about that in a few months."

Don't think I noticed that before.

That's great news because I know a lot of people wanted something a little more exciting than the hammerer (and yeah it's pretty much a given they're talking about the hammerer and not the choppa).

[amiable]

stuff

I think that post could have been longer, and had more nerdrage.  Please try again. 

[Miasma]

According to EuroGamer.

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

"Well, one of them we hope to put back in," Mark Jacobs told Eurogamer and GamesIndustry.biz when he spoke to us last week.

"I can't tell you which yet, that's a surprise. We're probably going to be replacing one and putting in another class in its place. But we'll be talking about that in a few months."

Don't think I noticed that before.

That's great news because I know a lot of people wanted something a little more exciting than the hammerer (and yeah it's pretty much a given they're talking about the hammerer and not the choppa).

Yeah with the population imbalance they would be insane to give destruction another cool class.

My post history on VN

[schild]

Don't respond to these people, please. It just makes you look like you're quoting nothing when I prune it out.

[Draegan]

I don't use a computer all weekend and this thread happens an no one calls me?  Bah.  This just soaked up an hour of work time this morning.

I have to say I agree with everyone (before the tards showed up) except MJ.  I actually enjoyed Schild's froth this time since I agree with it!

[chargerrich]

I do not understand why Mythic would play right into WoWs hands. WAR cannot hold a candle to WoWs PVE but is far better at PvP. So why do we have to perform a mind numbing grind just to get to the jewel of th game, PvP?

And what if we want to play some alts? I am not about to invest 250+ hours per character just to START to really PvP when it matters.

Hey I am all for a 5 year grind post RR40, but why make the entrance just to start the process so steep? It will only drive people away. I should be able to get a character to rank 40 in way <100 hours (like 40 or 50). Once I have decided and settled on what character I want to really RvR with, THEN and ONLY THEN should a hard core grind start.

As for additional RvR improvements:

1. 100% agree the current lake system fractures the player base, one HUGE area per tier would be a monumental improvement
2. NO scenario free servers. Scenarios, which I generally hate, are good for training and entry to RvR and can be fun occasionally to run with a guild group.
3. Better gear and much better EXP as an incentive RvR.
4. No need to nerf scenarios, but RvR should be better.

[Sahrokh]

linebreak

[Goreschach]

This guy obviously stole all those line breaks from the earlier posters.

[NiX]

I haven't seen such asshattery since the great water spill of '01.

[Calandryll]

Thread on Warhammer Alliance

Hmm,
I belive the community, and the customer shouldn't have to look in 3, or 4, or even two different places to find out the latest developer musing.

I agree with Garthilk wholeheartedly.  It's just about the strongest argument for official forums that one can make.

[chargerrich]

People follow the rewards. Is this where I say obvious design is obvious?


No one ENJOYS BG farming in WoW. It's just leaps and bounds the best reward path. It's practically the ONLY reward path for PvP for the masses.


WAR Scenarios seem like they have the same problem. They simply out weigh everything else reward wise. Buff the world RvR up, consolidate it, profit?

I played DaoC for a really long time, I WANT to like WAR, but you are making it very hard as things stand. "Soul crushing grind doing shit I don't want to do to get to the parts I want to do? Sign me up!   "

Look, I agree with you in theory 100%.  However, what we've seen so far is that a sizable percentage players don't want to leave the scenarios.  We will keep upping the rewards but my concern is that a sizable percentage will still want to stay in the scenarios because that is what they are used to doing so I want to be prepared for that.  It doesn't mean we will do it but it would be foolish of us not to prepare for it. 

Mark

Even if you are correct, I find it hard to believe, dare i say impossible, to think these increases will not help. We can argue about how much, but they will help. WORST case scenario is that there is some increase in RvR but maybe more is needed. I however think that some serious RvR experience love along with a major reduction is post 20-40 grind would fix a lot of ills.

Then you can concentrate on making the RvR layout better, with less lakes, more content, et al.

[schild]

Congratulations to chargerrich. While he will probably not stick around, he is the first new member to avoid the deletion stick. His posts, while slightly starfucky, were short and to the point. Also, he seems knowledgeable of the situation and most of all, he agrees with me and I'm a whore.

[chargerrich]

>>>>Seriously, go look at T3 and T4 quests. Why haven't those been increased in value by 3-400%? Is there any reason at all?

And, we have always spoken about the amount of time it would take to level and, on *most* servers, most players are leveling exactly as quickly as we said they would.  

Mark

Comments like these seriously give me pause. 1-40 should not take 200-300 hours, not even close. RR41-80 can take 5 years for all I care because RR80 should be special, rare and require a lot of work in RvR. But 1-40 is training. Let us level some alts and see what class we like. You are keeping players from even experiencing the best part of the game.

Look at your numbers, see how many have left and know that 99% of them NEVER EVEN SAW RR41. That is the sad part.

I have 7 alts all under 29 and they all hit a wall HARD at 20. So much so I did not want to play anymore. I have FORCED myself as a guild leader to queue scenarios for my main from 20-29 while watching my stocks dive on TV or law and order re runs because I am bored out of my skull.

I do it because from 1-20 I loved this game, even with the RvR deficiencies. Make the rest of the game like Tier 1 with improved RvR and you have me for life (and many others I suspect).

[chargerrich]

Uhhhhh, yea, you missed choices 5 and 6.

5) Increase RvR to the point that scenarios are something you do during offpeak hours.

6) Figure out a way to make sure everyone in any tier knows exactly which RvR zone to go to and offer an instant button-press to get there.

I'm sorry, but some things just have to have the training wheels slapped on them so that people can skip the bullshit (this includes walking across a zone to a damned warcamp).

Amen. Schild you are on point. I could not agree more.

[Nebu]

I do it because from 1-20 I loved this game, even with the RvR deficiencies. Make the rest of the game like Tier 1 with improved RvR and you have me for life (and many others I suspect).

I agree completely here.  This is the reason that Mythic got my cash for nearly 6 years.  The endgame was enjoyable and I found a great deal of variety in playing the endgame with many different character classes in every realm.  If the path to the endgame is as enjoyable as the endgame itself, they'll get my cash for years.  Schild has hit the other high points.  More incentives, less grind, yadda yadda yadda.

[Afritim]

you may ban me now.

ok

[Lum]

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

[Threash]

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

Isn't there one of those guys near the dwarf newbie zone?

[Lum]

Yep! It's like a teaser of awesome. "We were going to let you be one of those guys! Well, wait a bit and maybe you too can be drunk and stupid and dual wielding axes."

[HaemishM]

I want to do just that and that's what I told the team last week.  However, don't you think I should be prepared just in case we're all wrong and the ex-WoW players  would rather play more scenarios no matter if the experience, gear and leveling speed is faster in open RvR and the RvR guys want to do more RvR and less (or no) scenarios?

Mark

I'm way the fuck back on this thread. It was a 2-pager when I saw it last. But I had to point this out to Mark if he's still listening.

STOP INSULTING YOUR PLAYERS BY CALLING THEM EX-WOW PLAYERS.

Stop it. It matters not two rat fucks whether your players came from WOW, AOC, DAoC, EQ, WWI Online or any of a number of other MMOG's. They are YOUR CUSTOMERS NOW. They play your fucking game. If you keep trying to chase other game's players, you are missing the point.

Your players are doing what they get rewarded for in this game. Period. Scenarios reward with fun (the first 100 times) AND gear AND experience. Everything else - whether fun or not - rewards with a kick in the sack. I was part of an open group that took all the Empire t3 keeps and BO's last night. I was level 22/RR 15 (almost 16). I was there most of an hour. I got no gear, about 1/8th of an RR (which was enough to kick me to 16), and I barely 1/10th of a level of experience. That was 1 keep (the other had already been taken when I got involved) and 3 BO's. In that time, I saw maybe 5 enemy players - the rest was PVE and pounding on a keep. Had I gone into Tor Anroc (a scenario designed by meth heads for meth heads) during that entire time, I'd have likely gone through 4 or 5 runs, gotten an entire other renown rank, maybe even have leveled and gotten a piece of gear. Why is it there were no enemy players? Because they were all getting the rewards in the scenarios. Or worse, they were in another RVR lake taking keeps.

If it was the latter, why didn't I get any indication that my side's keeps were under attack? I'd have gone to the Elf area if their keeps were under attack. I did the keep taking because it was FUN. It's the kind of gameplay I want to be involved in. But there were no rewards - and no opponents. The fun is only going to last so long, especially when there are no enemy players to fight. At that point, it's just PVE, with no dynamic nature, which will get boring without any rewards.

Adding a new server will FURTHER dilute the RVR lakes, because people who want to play in RVR lakes will go there, leaving my server full of scenario runners. And playing on that server will likely suck, because the leveling grind will be HORRIBLE without the added scenario experience.

Scenarios ARE fun, but Tor Anroc/Morkain Temple - FUCK. SUCK SUCK SUCK. Lowest common denominator hamster wheels, that are only popular because the rewards are INSANE in comparison to every other activity in the game. People aren't playing scenarios because they are Ex-WoW players. They play for the same reason people masturbate. It's easy and rewarding.

One final, large font point:

TOR ANROC IS THE MMOG EQUIVALENT OF MONKEYS STIMULATING THEIR OGRASM CENTERS WITH A BUTTON.

[Nebu]

People aren't playing scenarios because they are Ex-WoW players. They play for the same reason people masturbate. It's easy and rewarding.

It's all about catching the carrot.  Make one slot machine payout often enough and players will always play that same slot machine.  The key to providing the playerbase with the widest variety of gameplay is to adjust the payout such that all styles of gameplay provide the same level of reward.  It's been said to death in this thread, but Haem has a way of capturing the point at its essence. 

[waylander]

I've seen the F13 discussions linked from Vault and Warhammer Alliance. I hope we don't see an invasion of the trolls, or the mouthbreathers that each have to make a 1,000 posts every day with "Hay Mark Jakobs!".

That said I do have to wonder why Mark wouldn't want to post on Warhammer Alliance considering its userbase, post several times a week on the Vault (which to me is the worst place), and then not get offended at some of the things we say here. We don't flame devs or game managers here, we just tell them like it is in sometimes simple english.

I appreciate all the devs who come here, even Lum, and try to be respectful even if I disagree. The only problem with War using so many different forums is that the message gets chopped up. Garth's new dev tracker looks like its going to find people no matter where they go. I hope that Mark as well as others will continue to communicate with us even though google or Warhammer Alliance/Vault/etc will always find a way to track them down.

[Hayduke]

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

I thought that's what MJ was coyly saying they were doing in the interview.  I mean they're obviously not going to cut the choppa because it has a huge fanbase and looked really cool.  The reaction to the hammerer has been meh to nerdrage.  If they don't put in the slayer which everyone wants what will they put in?  I'm not really up on WAR fluff but it seems if it's not the slayer they'd have to make something new like they did with DoKs.

[Venkman]

Amen. Schild you are on point. I could not agree more.

Also, he seems knowledgeable of the situation and most of all, he agrees with me and I'm a whore.

Ok, that's just over the top 

[schild]

I thought it was pretty great.

[UnSub]

Thread on Warhammer Alliance

Hmm,
I belive the community, and the customer shouldn't have to look in 3, or 4, or even two different places to find out the latest developer musing.

I agree with Garthilk wholeheartedly.  It's just about the strongest argument for official forums that one can make.

I like MJ's self-fulfilling prophecy of internet forutms - people on them are nasty and mean and insult you, so we won't use any where that might occur. Of course, this means those looking to try to get some attention head to wherever MJ posted last, which in turn pollutes any forums that MJ could be part of.

Instead of WAR / Mythic not having official forums, can it just be someone's job to keep MJ off the forums? They obviously don't suit him. I recognise that he and Sanya copped a lot of abuse during DAOC, but he withdrew and dismissed the contribution of forums whereas Sanya overcame / accepted that was the nature of MMO fame.

[HaemishM]

Of the two remaining originally planned careers, the Dwarf Hammerer and Greenskin Choppa, one is set to return to the game at a later date, but the other will be replaced by an as-yet unknown class.

I'm kind of surprised they don't put in the Dwarf Slayer, personally. Order needs a naked mohawk DPS class to counteract Marauders!

Adding a class to the Dwarves and NOT making it the Slayer would be the height of stupidity. Slayers are congealed bits of awesome sauce gravy on a bed of awesome lettuce with awesome bits sprinkled all over. The lore really doesn't have a lot of good dwarf classes other than Slayers.

While I'm bitching about stuff:

That little puff of smoke when I summon or desummon my horse. KILL IT GODDAMNIT IT HURTS SO FUCKING BAD. Seriously, every time I get that fucking puff of smoke, my machine slows to a crawl. Which means if I have to get off my horse in PVP, I'm dead because I stand there like a fucking paralytic while I get gang-raped by the opposition. HATE HATE HATE IT. As a matter of fact, give me more granularity in selecting which particle effects get played, because the game just goes overboard in the particle effects category, which is why RVR can be a slideshow at times.

In 6 months, this game is going to be torturous to level in. PQ's will be impossible when everyone is at level 40. There's going to need to be some serious jiggering of the pre-40 game to make alting worthwhile, and frankly, I don't even have a good solution for it. All that t1 and t2 real estate and those RVR lakes are going to be going to waste. I think Mythic is going to need to seriously considering some deleveling mechanism to make those places usable. And scenarios? Imagine how bad t2 would be without Mourkain Temple popping every 10 seconds.

Renown gear past level 15 is assy. As a result, talisman-making is worthless at higher levels. At level 22, most of my gear is either influence or quest-based, and that shit not only looks better, it doesn't contain any talisman slots. So all those talismans I've made are worthless. The Renown gear has slots - it just hasn't kept pace with my PVE gear. That has to change.

[schild]

Hey, Mark. When you get around to it, can you reply to this:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15008

I think every guild on Earth wants a little clarity on the subject.