f13.net

I feel your pain. Had a guy catch runner runner to make a straight against my flopped set of Ks last week. Pot was about 1/3 the size of yours, but it was a 4/8 full kill game. I couldn't help but sarcastically compliment him on a well played hand.

How far are the card-rooms from Seattle and do you think they are any good?

Someone needs to start another poker thread, I've given up on online (too much collaboration) and rarely drive to the casino an hour away... I need my fix!

Splitting off some of the chatter from the Get Together thread. Post your questions, bad beat stories, and other poker goodness here.

I thought your nanny-state government decided you kids weren't mature enough to gamble, how are you guys still playing?

There are several rooms just outside the Seattle city limits to the north (in Shoreline). Two major NA casinos as well- one about an hour north of Seattle (Tulalip), and one about 45 minutes- an hour SE of Seattle (Muckleshoot). Also some assorted small rooms at bowling alleys and mini-casinos scattered around the area.

I play primarily at Muckleshoot- it is only a 15-20 minute drive from my house. They have like 35 tables or so, and offer from 3/6 to 5/10 NL (actually spread limit, since state law dictates that the max single bet size is $500). Tons of bad players. The variance demon will attack occasionally, but it is a very profitable place to play over the long run. I am getting close to my near term bankroll goal- wanted to build it up so I could take $600 or so and buy an Xbox Elite and GH II  :-D One more decent session should cover it.


They did. I no longer play on the Internet- 10 years in jail is too much for me (although the chances of ever being prosecuted for it are dick). There was a bill that didn't make it out of committee this year that provided an affirmative defense for recreational users. Hopefully it will get more attention next session. At the national level, Barney Frank is working on a bill to repeal much of the UIGEA from last year. If that goes through, I think WA will follow along and allow it.

Nice. A lot more availability than the 2 hour drive to podunkville I have available. If I am ever up that direction you'll have to take me to Muckleshoot.

You betcha. Hopefully I will have moved up to the 10/20 by then so you don't have to slum it in the lower limits  :-D

I usually don't play that high, but my other choice was the usual 2-5 spread limit game they always have and I'm coming to loathe that game. Only other thing they spread is a nasty 5-10 NL game that I have no confidence in being able to play. My perfect game right now is either a 6/12 or 8/16 with no kill (I freaking hate kill button games) or at most a half kill.

My usual is a 4/8 game with a full kill. Kills are tough as far as the variance goes (never know how many there will be), but they are a goldmine to good players.

The spread limit games are interesting, but my NL experience is strictly in tournaments, other than a rack I donked off at the MGM last year after drinking all day. I know there are some terrible players in there spewing money, but I can't get comfortable with the swings yet. It takes me hours to lose $300 in a 4/8 game; I can lose twice that in one hand at NL. Sitting there for hours nutpeddling until I get a feel for the game doesn't sound too exciting.

I'd definitely feel at home at a 4/8 kill game, particularly as those game often just end up being 8-16 games with an extra blind in.

Pleesse essplain.

I just bluffed at a pot at heads up on a small online tourney, board was 5/8/j I had some shitty hand like 6/2, he had an 8 in his hand and another overcard. Turn and River were both 6s :P

Anyway, I just started playing online and I'm hating it. I started playing very loose a couple of nights ago, I think I subconciously want to go bust, so I never have to play again. I'm up E10 since than... :(

edit:
I can't fucking die. Finished second in another sit and go tournament - got a gadzillion pairs (like 10ish pairs for 20 minutes), even called an overpair preflop for all in and caught quads. I'm on fire :P

Getting extra money into the pot against bad players in profitable in the long run...that is pretty much the simple version. The long version is all the factors that differentiate the good players from the bad- calculating pot odds, keeping enough chips in front of you at all times to make sure you get properly paid off for a monster hand, starting hand selection, positional play, etc. Basically- a good player can adjust on the fly to kill pot, while the bad players play their same game at  higher stake for the hand.

I'm really starting to miss online poker.  I was at a conference in Reno recently and spent some time in the poker room.   Being surrounded by smelly people with big mouths and bad etiquette really turned me off to the live game.  At least online, I could turn their chat off. 

After getting over the initial nervousness, I enjoy live play a lot more than online. However, online was awfully damned convenient (and profitable). In an ideal world I would have the option to do both as I saw fit.

Oh... people that get visibly irritated over losing $20 need to get the fuck out of poker rooms. 

There, I said it. 

I mostly play live now, though not very often. At this point it's a way for me to hang out for a weekend with my attached friends.

I play really sloppy online and one of my best traits is paying attention to betting patterns but online I tend to let my mind wander.

I have absolutely the same problem. Also I'm quite good at picking up on body language, I don't know it just comes naturally but at times I can tell if a guy is bluffing or has a hand. The other thing is that I don't have much experience, and some times 20 seconds are waaaaaaaay not enough to make a decision weather to fold or call.

WAP - I'm wondering, what do you consider a good starting hand? I have a friend that always nags on me that I will pay a decent raise with A/2 suited. And I will do it consistently, from time to time I'll even play other crappy suited connectors like 7/8 or 8/9.

Discount this advice as much as you like because I'm not great at poker, but I prefer 78s or 89s to A2s; though I wouldn't normally play any of them into a big raise from a decent player.

The problem with A2 is that people play aces. So flopping a high pair can tempt you into trouble with 2 as a kicker, and the chance of a high pair is the only thing A2 has over 73 (both make exactly one straight), and you wouldn't play 73, suited or otherwise.

With a 78 or 89, you likely know if you are ahead or have a serious chance of drawing a winning hand as soon as the flop comes down. A2 is harder to play.

Yeah, I am aware of how crappy the hand is and how it can get me in trouble. It has too many times to count, but i've also floped the nuts so many times with it, it's not funny. Maybe it's my Brunson :P

When I first starting playing seriously, I used the Sklansky Hand Rankings (http://www.onlinepokercenter.com/articles/poker_strategy/sklanskys_hand_rankings.php) pretty religiously. With more experience, I learned to adapt my starting hand requirements to the table I was playing.

For the example you gave- I wouldn't cold call two bets with A2 suited unless I was getting a huge price from the pot- like UTG raised and EVERYONE called to me on the button. I like the suited connectors better, but I am not a fan of cold calling raises. If a hand is good enough to call two bets with, it should be good enough to raise with. Every bet you save is just as valuable as a bet you win.

Played last night for a couple of hours in a 4/8 full kill (which means if someone wins 2 pots in a row, they post an 8 dollar 'kill' which is like an extra blind, and the hand is played as 8/16).  Two hands of note-

Reasonably aggressive guy open raises UTG. Middle position calls, Middle Position 2 calls, folded to me on the button. I have Kd Qd, and I make it 3 bets. Small blind folds, BB calls, UTG caps it at 4 bets. Everyone calls, and we go to the flop with 20 small bets in the pot.

Flop is Ah 8d 9s

UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, and I call (pot is too damned big to fold for a 22-1 price). BB folds, and we go to the turn.

Turn is 7d

UTG bets, MP1 folds. I now have a 2nd nut flush draw, so I call. To the river-

River is 2d

UTG bets, I raise, he stares at the board for 30 seconds mumbling to himself, and then calls and turns over Ad Ac. His head nearly explodes when I table my flush.

2nd hand-

2 limpers to me on the button. I have TT, and raise. SB folds, BB calls, limpers call.

Flop is KK9 rainbow. Checked to MP. He bets, 1 fold, I call, and BB calls.

Turn is 7. Checked all around.

River is 6. BB bets, MP calls. I think about it for a minute, figure I'm beat, and muck my hand. BB shows A6, MP shows A9, and I show my disgust at myself for playing my hand like a dumbass.

Discuss.  :-P

Cold calling a raise when you shouldn't is the biggest leak bad players have IMO. A good rule of thumb is that if you don't have a hand that is in a position to 3-bet, you should just fold. A2s is a horrible had to cold-call with because you are either a huge dog or completely dominated and not many people will be in the pot to give you the pot-odds to justify the call. Same with low suited connectors, although those aren't quite as bad from a domination standpoint. I'd only call two bets with those cards if I am in the cut-off or button and at least 5 people are going to be in the pot.


EDIT: Just noticed that Way covered most of this. Oh well.

I bet that turn. The flop better checking screams that he was bluffing the K.  Your bet will look like you were laying in the weeds and are now concerned with a check-trough. Players rarely will wait for the river for a check-raise or even a straight raise on that kind of board, so you will find out if someone has a King with a bet as well here and can get out of it.  Probably 60-70% of the time your bet will take it down right there.

With how you played it, I am calling that river. The turn check-through shows weakness all around and you essentially have an overpair at that point. You are closing the action so 1 BB is all it will take. One of the things I really took out of Ed Miller's book is how big of a mistake it is to fold on the river for one bet 80-90% of the time.

This thread makes me want to watch "Rounders"....

Yeah, I was not happy with how I played it. The BB was an older woman who was new to the table, but whom some of the staff seemed to recognize. I think I gave her more credit than she deserved. If she had bet and the other guy folded, I would have called. I just couldn't see being good vs 2 other hands.

Betting the turn would have cleared up a lot of things for me. I am still shaking my head trying to figure out why I played this so passively. MUTB syndrome ftl.

So if I get it right, you guys mostly play something that is not no limit (fixed? pot limit?)? What's a 3 bet - triple the big blind?

We both play limit which is usually structured with a small and big blind of one half of a small bet and a small bet. Pre-flop you can raise the amount of the big blind and someone can 3-bet which is to add another amount equal to the big  blind. This can go on until it is "capped" which is usually 5 or 6 bets depending upon the room. On the flop, again the first bet is a "small bet" which was the amount of the big blind and the betting proceeds the same way.  On the turn and river you can bet the "big bet" which is two times the big blind.  For instance, in a 4-8 game, the blinds are usually 2 & 4, with betting being 4 per bet pre-flop, 4 on the flop, 8 on the turn and 8 on the river. The game I get stuck playing is a "spread game" of 2-5 with 1/2 blinds. You can bet anywhere between 2 & 5 on any street. Functionally in that everyone just bets 5 all the time if they want to bet or raise which is one of the reasons I don't really like it.

Kill buttons get even more complicated. Way plays in a "win 2 pots and you get a kill button" game which is pretty simple and doesn't happen all that often. That game I play in had a "pot over X (usually 10BB)" then the player gets a kill and it turns from a 2-5 spread game to a 5/10 limit game. It confuses the hell out of people who haven't played it, even those who play poker regularly elsewhere. If it wasn't the only legal live game within 600 miles of me I wouldn't play it in.

Called around and can't find an Xbox 360 Elite system locally, so it is off to the card room I go to earn more money to pay for it  :-D

Here's one for you guys. I don't know why these people show up for our games, like omg someone brought a colleague, but they always seem to bust me. I'm on the big blind, I get three limpers up to me (basicly everyone) and have AQ of hearts. I raise something like 3 or 4 times the big blind and it's pretty late into the game. First guy after me pays, the guy on the button folds and the guy from the small blind pays. Flop comes 8h 9h and Qc. Small blind checks to me, I bet a solid ammount. Guy after me folds, small blind dude pays. Turn is 4h and I make my flush, and I'm thinking "Boy, let's hope he has a hand". Check to me, I bet again, like two times the previous bet. He pays up, I'm a happy bugger. River comes 8c. I'm sitting there, thinking to myself this is not fucking happening to me. Small Blind guy looks at the board, and bets all in (which is like 1/3 of the pot at this moment, which is like at least 20 Euro at the moment). I must have tried to lay the hand down for like 7-8 minutes but couldn't make myself do it. I was thinking, did he really pay my initial raise with something as lame as 89 or 84... or is he really making a move? In the end I payed up to see his eights over nines full. The pot was something like 30 Euro, which is pretty fucking huge for our games, where we buy in with like 10.

ps: I rebought and went out again on the next hand, where I floped a straight and the other dude hit runner, runner for a bigger straight. Yay luck!

Is anyone going to WSOP this year?  I'm thinking about donating to one of the early NLHE events this year, even though I haven't been playing much for a long while.  I feel the bug building up.


I highly recommend getting PokerOffice or PokerTracker or a similar utility and playing 10,000 hands they way you currently play.  You can read all you want about how that isn't a hand you should cold call with, but it won't have the effect of looking at your stats and seeing how much you lose playing that way over a statistically significant number of hands.

Me, I wouldn't generally cold call that hand ever, but could imagine a table where cold calling it makes money if you are pretty fucking sure others will follow.  You absolutely have to be a guy willing to fold As2s on a AcJd8s board with any significant amount of action though, I think. 

Please note that I am not as good as AB or WUP, so if they have different advice, listen to them.

My local card barn is running a couple of WSOP satellites- $170 for 180 person field, top 2 get seats plus a bit of spending money. I have only played one other tourney for that kind of prize (WA State Poker Championship a couple years ago- not 'official' I don't think. It paid 10 spots. I came in 11th when I made a flush on the turn and my opponent filled up on the river. Not that I am bitter. Two years later). I think I am probably good enough to get fairly deep, but when it gets down to it, there is still luck involved.

Well, just played my first game in about a year.  It was my brother-in-law's turn to hold the monthly work/neighbor/friend poker game and I drove up from Tucson to attend.  11 players, started out limit and then later on they took the training wheels off.

30 dollar buy-in and I walked away with $160.  I was really cold-decked during the limit portion and just managed to keep myself above water.  I started winning hands in no-limit and then I uhh.. dropped a bomb on the table. 

Dealt: Ks, 10d

Flop: As, Qs, some card (don't remember)

Turn: Js

River: 10s

3 other people made flushes on the river.   Only one folded after I lead off with a $20 dollar bet and 2 went all in (too bad they were some of the smaller stacks).  I imagine that may be the only time in my life I'll get that hand.

Played for roughly 8.5 hours.  Lost only one big hand where my dad of all people had beat a full house of mine.  Started to get whittled down towards the end a little where it switched to dealer's choice (only about 4 folks left) and I was seriously drunk and tired.  Lots of fun and I think I'm obligated to drive up for the next game.   :-D

Having people bet into you when you are holding the mortal nuts is one of the greatest joys in poker. Had it happen to me Friday night with KT, coincidentally enough. Made the nut straight on the turn and the river didn't change things. He bet,  I raised, he 3 bet, I capped and he folded (WTF)? Was stuck 2 racks plus when he came to the table, left $20 to the good. Gotta love it.

I ended up on a final table tonight with the 2007 WSOP women's world champion Sally Boyer (http://pokerworks.com/article-971.html). When she made a move against me with that bracelet on her arm, I just couldn't call even though I should have (it would have been a marginal call when she went all in as the SB against my BB and all I had was 63s getting about 2.8 to 1, it would have been about 1/2 my stack). I did have her all-in at one point with me as the favorite, but she sucked out on me.  :x I can confirm that she is good with a short stack as she went from nothing (when I was chip leader with about 8 to go) to finishing above me. I had 3 nasty suck outs hit against me while I was trying to push around the table with my stack as we neared the bubble. I ended up 4th. Decent cash (although it was a dinky tourney so not a lot of money) considering I've played a total of 3 tournaments in the last year.

Sounds like you were the victim of your own ego, while she knew when saving cash was better than 'saving face'.  :-D

*pokepoke*

Not sure what you are talking about.  When you have the big stack near the bubble, being hyper-aggressive is the way to build up to a win. I wasn't even doing it with rags. I got people all-in 3 times as the favorite and didn't win any of them which is just bad luck. I also had rockets down the stretch and min raised early only for them to fold around (which was unusual for the BB to not at least call 1 more bet).  I feel like I actually played really well. This is a weird tourney with really short stacks. By the time I went out, just the small and big blinds (no antes) were together 15% of the total chips in play.

Your Hubris.

I would suggest that your lack of poker knowledge means you are reading things into that post that aren't there. That is all pretty standard tournament poker stuff. When you have a big stack near the bubble (which is cut-off between winning money and walking away with bubkis), you bully the table. People sucked out on me all-in preflop as I was the statistical favorite to win the pot each time, but did not. The only thing that isn't standard poker is me not calling because of the bracelet (WSOP winners get very identifiable gold bracelets if you didn't know, plus I knew who she was even without it) which is more self-deprecating since I was essentially intimidated off of a call I would have been more likely to make had I not been up against a world champion (I was half joking anyways).

Yeah, it may sound like hubris, but it is standard tournament poker. Everyone is terrified of busting out of the tournament before the money, so they play extra tight. An aggressive player can add a lot of chips to his/her stack without little competition if they have the balls to do it.

Been a couple of months since I played a tourney. Might have to give one a try this week.

Our most recent poker night had the guy sitting to my right play out a hand with one other guy accross the table. Ended up with a pot for about half of each of thier stacks.

Flop was 6S, 9S, 10S
turn was a rag
River was 3S

Guy across the table turns over his AS KC, beeming at his "nut" flush. Guy to my right flips over his 7S 8S for the stright flush he had flopped.

That reminds me that in that same tourney Friday a guy was all in and flopped a royal. Pretty funny.

Local card barn has a high hand jackpot every 2 hours. Guy at my table flops quad Queens to take the lead in the high hand derby. 45 minutes later he makes a royal on the river. I haven't had quads in at least a couple of months and never had a royal live (2 online). I hate people.

Sometimes the variance fairy comes and sprinkles luck dust over your cards for an entire session...

Played last night for about 3 hours. Missed a couple of draws early (got called down on failed semi-bluffs that didn't hit). Then the deck started hitting me in the face.

 My favorite hand- 4/8 game, but it is a kill pot so it is playing as 8/16 for this hand. In general, this makes everyone at the table tighten up. It is folded to me in the cutoff. I have Q6o, and raise, trying to steal the blinds (kill blind of $8 was in the small blind spot, and is a very close friend of mine who I know won't call without a hand). To my chagrin, the button calls, as does my buddy in the small blind. Big blind folds.

Flop is 4 5 7 rainbow. SB checks, I bet, button calls, sb folds.

Turn is K. I bet, button calls.

River is a 3. I bet, button sighs and and mumbles something about aces, then calls, saying he wants to see my hand. I turn over my rivered straight, button's head explodes, and my buddy starts laughing his ass off, saying that wasn't exactly the hand he thought I would have there.

Later on I rivered a nut flush to beat button's flopped set (that he played so passively that I had odds to draw). He wasn't very amused by my antics.

Last big hand before I left was with As 5s in the small blind.  5 or 6 limpers to me, I call, big blind checks, and practically the whole table sees the flop.

A 5 5

Hmmm. That looks promising. I check, praying that someone has the case 5. It gets checked around.

Turn is a 6. I check, checked to a guy at the other end of the table. He bets, folded to me. I just smooth call, and everyone else folds.

River is a 7. I check, he bets, I raise, he calls, and I table my flopped boat. He just stares at the boards for 5 seconds and then mucks his hand.

Bought in for $100, cashed out $540. Not bad for 3 hours of 'work'.

I take it you weren't in that hand?

I think I've lost at least a couple thousand dollars playing Poker now.  I'm one of those guys that doesn't like to lose a bit of cash.  The problem is I'll go to a table where I want to not have every hand be 15-25 times the small bet, but because the people who frequent there are of a richer caliber and don't give a fuck, will usually play a game with 2-3 blinds but any decent bet is a minimum 10 bucks.

Play a limit game instead of NL. Much easier to budget that way.

I always feel choked when I play limit, but I'll give it another try this weekend if I breakdown and go to the poker room.  It's the only way I get to hang out with other people, if we're all there to game.  Before poker rooms I usually hung at arcades and such.  But due to the competitive nature of these rooms, not really able to make many friends.

Play poker in Puzzle Pirates!  No worries about losing!

Puzzle Pirates didn't really work out for me.  Sure it was free but I feel like it's completely different from offline poker where money is really involved.

Ya, it wasn't a real suggestion.  But real poker boring as shit. Folding 90% of you hands means you have nothing to do most of time.

Ok, it's good to know I'm not alone in that.  I think I lose money because I get so fucking bored out of my mind 90% of the time that the 10% of the time I do get in I can be read like a comic book.

So maybe if I solve that problem then I can do better in poker by being more mellow in the hands I'm in.

Once you play more you will feel far more comfortable at the table. There is also a lot of info to be had even from the hands in which you fold. Find out who likes to bluff, who only plays huge hands, who will call down with any part of the board, etc. This will help you make better decisions in the hands you do end up playing. You can also get up and take a quick walk around to clear your head if you really get bored.

That's because you are playing a NL cash game. Most boring form of poker there is IMO.  Read up on how to play limit poker and then play a low limit game. Much more fun, more strategy and less risk of ruin.

I had a huge post written up about my poker experiences but then when I was deleting something with backspace Firefox decided to be dumb and move back and delete all that I had wrote.

Can someone please fucking explain to me why a program would willingly take focus off of a text entry window for any fucking reason?

Anyway, long story short: For about 5 hours I was down anywhere from $5 to $90 (but I was still cool and mellow), but hour 6 I lost the $200 I had taken there.  Massage at the start put me in a good mood but aggravating shit-stupid play by the people on the table I was at towards the end cost me a lot of money even though I had good cards.  I just wasn't lucky compared to some other people there.  Bleh.

Type...

about:config

...into your address bar.

Scroll down to the value...

browser.backspace action

...then right click on the value (will be a zero if you have backspace = back). Modify, and set value to 2 if you want backspace to not do anything. I think '1' means backspace will scroll up or something.

Back page is the default for backspace for consistency with IE.

I'm currently in San Francisco for a CLE conference and went to the Lucky Chances poker room tonight and played some 6-12. Nice to play some straight up limit instead of the bastard frankenstein of a game I usually have to play in BFE Wendover, NV. I guess in Ca. the house can't be a player in any game so the place is half poker and half pai-gow and balckjack where the othe players get to be the "dealer" for a couple of hands and it rotates. There was some monster Pai Gow game going on over on the other side with very large stacks of chips (shrug).

The place is in Colma outside of San Fran which is apparently where they stick all the cemeteries. Took the BART out there and they had a shuttle. The game was really soft and full of regulars who obviously thought I was a fish when I sat down. I took 13BB off of them in 3 hours playing very basic ABC poker. I didn't lose a single show-down which suggests I was playing a bit too tight, but it was working. I got up, treaded water for a while and figured what they hell and headed back to my hotel. Decent room and professionaly run but nothing to exactly write home about. The chips were 2$ chips which I hadn't played before and were those really cheapo ones that have no texture and therefore stick. I'm conviced I threw in 4 chips instead of the required 3 at least twice and the dealer just scooped them into the pot.

I'm heading over to a friend's tonight (assuming the weather doesn't deteriote more -- it's a long drive, and it's pretty shitty out) for my first 'real' poker game. (I've played no-money games face to face, and online games with real money, but never face-to-face with cash). There's not going to be many people -- 10 at most, and probably more like 6 or 7. Really low limit (30 bucks will cover both games, the food, the high hand pot, and something for the host) so it's just friendly stuff.

Any advice? Etiquette rules? It's a very friendly game, they have it once a month or so, and I'm pretty happy to be invited, but god knows I can barely keep up with the terminology at times. :)

Don't fold out of turn. Don't ask other players what they have. Don't go overboard talking about a hand that you are not in. Compliment the host on his chip dip.

His chip dip IS quite excellent, and I've heard rumors his chairs are a sheer delight to sit upon. And as I'm bringing my beer, I can also assume there will be excellent beer there. :)

I admit, "not talking" will be difficult. Most of my regular 'face to face' poker games were done playing with change against my various relatives, including my cousins. My brother and I introduced them to effective bragging, sarcasm, insults, and other forms of game distraction. We also mocked them mercilessly about their choices, and called them names. My family is loud, sarcastic, and mouthy -- so that's just showing affection.

No one is going to sweat etiquette much at a low limit home game, especially if everyone is friendly with each other from before. Get drunk, have fun, and don't bother trying to bluff- people are there to play and have fun, so they want action.


Had a monster (+50.5bb) session last weekend. Been buried at work this week so I haven't had time to go back, but am hoping to cut out a bit early today and get a long session in before I go to Portland tomorrow. Hopefully I can pay for my trip  :-D

That's what I figured -- but I'm the sort of guy that looks shit up first to make sure I'm not doing something stupid.

At my point, my "mad poker skillz" are at the "Stop trying to chase a pot just because you have cash in it. Cut your freakin' losses and don't bet so heavily on a mediocre hand next time, idiot" stage. :)

This is more of a general rant because it happened a bunch last night, but you should stick it in your etiquette memory bank.

My only serious pet-peeve when playing in low limit games that would even bother me in a friendly game is when people who folded their hand talk about the cards they threw away when the hand is still ongoing.  The typical example is when you get three or four handed pre-flop, and the flop comes down 339 and some idiot either says "damn I threw away a 3" or acts like he just had a heart attack making it obvious he threw away a 3. Not only does no one care what you mucked because you mucked it and it is therefore irrelevant, but you just gave away a ton of information to players still in the hand thereby likely helping someone tremendously and screwing the other people. So my 100% bottom line no fooling rule is "don't disclose dead cards while the hand is still in play." I see regulars do this and it drives me absolutely bat-shit and I will actively complain or even call a floor if the dealer doesn't stop it.

People actually do that? I only disclose dead cards after the fact, or if we're teaching someone how to play a game. In any game, from freakin' gin to poker.

You would be absolutely amazed how much people do that in low limit games. They think they are just talking to the guy next to them who isn't in the hand either, but a poker table ain't that friggin big.

Wow, I didn't even think to mention that, as its usually one of the first pieces of ettiquete people learn. Other common basics are that the dealer doesn''t look at mucked cards, and should not rabit chase without the tables permission.

I play a regular $10 game with work friends and significant others. Its a great time, fun get together with plenty of booze, snacks, and that other past time BC is famous for (for those in to those things). The actual poker though, is serious. Hell, one guy keeps a running score and likes to email it around the office in an attempt to intimidate people (he's the current leader).

It's really nice to be able to play a $10 game that people play seriously. Its tourny style, no buyins, with a 90/10 payout - so no one wants to get knocked out early. The blinds get raised fairly rapidly to keep things moving, but generally its a well played game. There are a couple guys that think they're Gus Hansen and play 7 4 under the gun, but generally its not your typical chasing that you see at casino low limit games.

Anyone here in Florida? Namely the Tampa Bay area or whatnot -- anywhere where you can go to a cardroom. Since the laws just changed allowing NL play, there is unbelievably loose action all over the place. Three times last night I had people calling monster bets (i.e. 2-3.5x pot size) when I knew they were on a draw just so they could take a shot at breaking me. If you have a bankroll to back it, the cardrooms around here (AND ESPECIALLY AT SEMINOLE CASINOS) are so full of fish it is stupid. Granted, I got sucked out on and broken my last time on the table (QQ v J9), but the play is pretty straightforward and if you play straightforward, selective agressive poker, you can make a lot of money. However, if you are the type who likes to limp in on QKo, J10s or the like, you might want to stay home -- those hands get demolished by the lucky Q4s and K8s that are all about split two pair that the limpers want to play. I'd recommend somewhere around $1500 (a little more than Vorhaus's recommended 10:1, but a little less than Duke's 3:100) to get you started and in a month, you could easily see yourself running around $3500.


Unfortunately, I just cashed out most of my bankroll for new furniture and PC stuff for my apartment, so it'll be a little while before I'm back on the tables, but if you have the time and the money, you can do pretty well for yourself down here.

I'm off to Foxwoods tomorrow.

In general don't talk about cards until after the hand is over, especially if you are no longer in it. Yeah, people do the fake heart attack thing all the time. ZOMG I FOLDED 76 I WOULDA HAD A STRAIGHT!!!

The thing is, at low limit tables only half the people have any idea how to play. You'll see guys who put money out to call the big blind before the cards are dealt, every single time. Guys who have to ask what the bet is, bet too much or too little in a limit game, etc.

So I played in 2 $120 Sit N Gos. Normally I play cash tables but the wait on them was really long, plus I have a tendency to grind away for hours and hours. With a tournament there is a fixed limit on how long it can last.

I finished 6th and third, meaning I lost $40. Competition was pretty weak, the first tourney I just got some bad breaks. Was a fun time.

That's pretty much what we did -- first game was like that. Second and third games were 5 dollar winner-take-all sort of things. I had an absolute blast, and did fairly well. I placed third in the first game, and second the second and third games (both of which I lost on the river card. I felt somewhat vindicated that they went all-in against my better hand, and lucked out on the last card.).

I found the first game the most fun (people played more seriously, and the booze hadn't loosened up people's attention too much), but sadly my good hands were all early in. The rising blinds ate away my stack while I kept getting dealt absolute crap. Things turned near the end, and I had some good hands, but not soon enough.

I'm looking forward to the next game, which should be in a few weeks.

How to know when you are officially running bad-

A) Lost almost half of your bankroll in the past 2+ weeks? Check
B) Getting rivered with a mindnumbing frequency? Check
C) Are finally convinced that the dealers are conspiring against you? Check

C) came last night. 4/8 full kill game. I ran my initial buyin of $100 to $260 in the first hour. Then I started losing. None of my draws hit, but ALL my opponents did. The final straw came when I got Ah Kh in late position. 2 limpers to me, I raise. The dealer then realizes that he forgot to move the button before dealing, so it is a misdeal. I ship the cards back in with a growl. Dealer sends me 88 the next deal. I once again raise, get a caller in the BB. Flop is K high, he checks, I check. Turn was a 5. He bets I call. River was another low card. Bet, call. Villain turns over AK. Hero's head explodes in frustration.

This can be a cruel fucking game sometimes.

I hate runs like that. I'm actually on a hot streak over the last few trips. The deck absolutely hit me in the face last time with flopped nut flushes, trips and even quads. It will turn around.

I had 15 minutes to play.  Crazy, I know.  But I sat down with $100 at a No Limit table, with $2 / $3, intent on leaving if I lose it all or win $50.  After 5 minutes I'm down $50 due to bad beats or good pocket + bad flop.  Cards come up Q 10 unsuited.  I figure, WTH, people go in with this, and call.  Someone ahead of me raises to 25, I figure A something, not a high pocket pair.  There's another caller, and I figure, well, hell, why not, and go in.  Flop comes down 10 9 5, all unsuited.  I lead the bet with $25, big raiser calls, so I know he's got two overcards.  The second caller decides to go all in for an extra 20 bucks or something, which I only have $12 left, so I go in.  Big raiser calls.

Two other cards come down, one a 9 to pair the board and another low card.  I flip my Q 10 with top pair (10 10 9 9 Q).  Big raiser had AQ suited.  All-In didn't show his cards but said he was beat, so maybe a low pocket pair, like 8 or something.

Walked out with $115 profit.  Decided to not try and play the rest of the 5 minutes I had.

I'm actually quite happy and willing to stop playing if I am up by a significant margin.  Maybe not as soon as I walk in, but it was most satisfying to leave the poker house up after leaving so many times down.

Still running so bad it is surreal. Knocked out of two tournaments in the following fashion-

First- Shove from MP with 88. Get called by As7s. He makes 7 high straight on the river, I go home.

2nd- Shove from LP with 33. Called by Ac3c. Flop is 247. Turn 4. River 7. I go home and cry.

This week the card barn has 5 drawings a night for $1000 each for the people who clock hours. I have 4 tickets, so I will probably be there every night trying to rebuild my bankroll the old fasioned way- luckboxing!

This is my all-time most hated way to lose when your pair gets counterfeited by two-pair on the board and some lame-ass kicker takes it. BUT, you better have had some good fold equity or been mighty short to go all in with that ugly of a hand.

Just played a 55k guaranteed on absolute this weekend ($11 + Rebuy + Addon). Ended up in for $31 after the initial double load and the add-on. Never had to actually rebuy before the rebuy period ended. Slightly below average after the rebuy period is over with an M around 20.

Chip leader in the tourney is at my table and is raising nearly every hand to 4xbb. I get QQ and open limp to the chip leader who makes the typical raise to 4x. One other caller and back to me and I shove figuring I'm going to get called by any A from the chip lead and not too worried about the caller since he'd reraise if he had QQ beat. Chip lead does call, other player folds. He has A5s.

Flop 4,6,7. Turn 8. I'm done.

I had just under 10 big blinds left, so I was short stacked but should still have had quite a bit of fold equity. Unless someone picked up a monster like A7s, of course.  :?

Played last night while waiting in vain for my name to be called in the 5 drawing per hour for 1k. Got AA in my first SB, folded to the button who limped (THANK GOD- I would have been on instant  tilt having to chop with AA). Flopped a set, filled up on the river, and won a decent pot  (button had a K, flopped another and rivered a 3rd. No good!). Up and down the rest of the night, but actually hit a couple of draws and even semibluffed to  a win on the turn when I flopped a SF draw in LP, raised on the flop, and bet the turn. High hand is worth $500, but I would rather take down the pot than try to hit a 44-1 shot by checking.  Ended up $25 to the good, which felt like $500 after the month I have had. Back for more abuse tonight.

You know, you could just stop by my house, give me $100. I'd then kick you in the nuts and send you on your way home.

Think of the time you could save. Plus you could pick up your DVD I borrowed.

Not to mention see that boy of yours! You gotta bring him over for a visit before he is in high school.

He'll kick you in the nuts too.

I'm blind or they don't exist. I'm looking for an online poker place that lets you create private rooms. Anyone know of any?

I hate to say it, but when I'm in the total suckout stage, I stop playing pockets below Jacks. It's just not worth it unless you hit trips on the flop, and when you're down you never seem to have it happen. Let your luck turn around, but until then play extra tight on Tier 1-3 hands.

If you don't play optimal poker all the time at the end of tournaments you are losing money.  Period.  It's all math. 

That's why I don't play tournaments.  I don't have the patience for them and I can't stand just how big of a blow suckouts are to you near the end.  I don't mind losing 200 BB with AA vs. KK in a ring game so much as I mind playing 5 hours in a tournament and getting bubbled due to a suckouts (one which is often caused by standard operation procedure for both players)

If Atlantic City were a bit closer, I'd go there more often to play. I did find it easier to play online back before I decided it was no good doing that (illegality + bad collusion problems]: it's too easy to get nervous against real people. Or to be annoyed by them. Last time I was in LA I went down to the Hustler poker tables with my brother and there was this Turkish guy there who was just a fucking monster asshole. I was up pretty well against him, he was limping in with rags and other people were letting him, but then I got involved in a big hand with him and it became an ego-must-get-him thing, to my downfall. I know, works for Phil Hellman, it's probably very deliberate on this guy's part as well.

I really prefer NL and tourney play, though tourney play is mostly not the thing to do if you're honest to god trying to make some money. In the same time it takes to play a small tourney, I can make more than the payoff for 1st playing a NL table. On the other hand, whenever I play NL (usually 1-2), there's a way bigger danger of busting out on a call that's basically the right call to make. Last time I was in Vegas, I was at a 1-2 NL table, up about $100.00 after an hour. 9 people at table. I get Qh Qd under the gun, I raise three times the blind. Fold fold call (big stack, only person who can cover me, very aggressive loose player who has been making a lot of marginal calls, his stack is big because of multiple rebuys) call fold fold around to BB who also calls. Flop is Jd 10d 5s. I figure I'm not up against KK or AA--the other two guys are relative donks, neither of them has slowplayed anything good, but I'm thinking there's at least one AK out there. I'm afraid of TT and JJ, but I decide to push and go all-in: I don't want people with a K or an A to draw, and that's about the only way to push them off. The loose guy calls me, the other two fold. He's got As Kc. The Kd comes down on the turn: FUCK. But I'm thinking: now any A, any diamond, or a Q and I win: I might have been committed to a call or raise even if I'd only put in a $10-$20 bet on a $25 pot on the flop, that's a lot of outs.

River is a 7h. So he wins, and I'm out $200.00. But it was kind of the right thing to do (wasn't it?), abstracted from the money involved, particularly given who up against (a guy with a demonstrated history of loose calls). In a limit game, you're insulated from those kinds of outcomes, but I just like the way NL plays. I find it easier to think through things.

What I like about tourney play is that the risk-reward calculation is way different. It frankly makes for a smarter, more interesting game even if the players are weak, and it also keeps a wealthier player from just spewing money into the game. A $1-2 NL game is no fun if a relatively decent player sits down with a big initial stack and zero concerns about whether he loses it, but in a tourney, everyone has to try and build the same initial investment without constantly rebuying.

Happy to report that I managed to control my tailspin and pull up inches before disaster. Played the last 3 nights (hoping in vain to get drawn for $1k- they are giving away $20k per night all week); +~$360. Taking a night off to rest and play some Madden tonight, but back to the salt mines tomorrow  :-D

Is it? Why wouldn't you have just made a pot size bet or a little more than a pot size bet to gauge where he is and find out the relative strength of your hand. If he just calls, your read is pretty right (considering you've pegged this guy as not-tricky) and you know where you are. But because you pushed all-in, you put yourself at needless risk -- if he's going to chase, let him chase your bets, not your stack. (This is how I've been playing lately and it helps me a TON. I'm way too agressive with the all-in shove.)

Wouldn't you have rather gotten away from your hand when the king hit rather than telling us your bad beat story? I'm not saying you did anything 'wrong;' you definitely got your money in with the best hand. But I think you also have to protect yourself when you don't have the absolute nuts.

Absolute poker and 32red do it.

Pokerstars allow you to run private tourneys, but they say they will only do it once they've 'got to know you' and you need to send an email to support to ask to have it activated on your account.

Yeah. I'm a bit of a blaster in this respect: bad habit. But in this case, I think I would have called on the turn even assuming I got a confirmation from a call on the flop, given the number of outs--and this guy was doing a lot of all-in on the turn betting to try and buy pots (he'd lost four times on weak hands that way to small stacks). Going all-in pushed out the other two hands (one guy said after he'd had A-7, the other guy I have no idea) as well.

Like I said, you didn't do anything wrong (You got your chips in with the best hand, what's wrong with that?), just around where I play, you have to really, really protect yourself and your stack or you'll get run down by people with 3-1 draws to your set/two pair/top top.

If the pot isn't offering them 3-1 odds, I am all for them chasing with draws. That is why you need to size your bets in NL to avoid offering your opponent the proper odds to draw against you. Unless, of course, you have a monster, in which case you want to give them enough rope to hang themselves.

Sklansky argues the opposite. He says that if you play with people who want to chase you down with 3-1 draws all the time, you will inevitably get chased down and lose your stack. The advice I offered up is a paraphrase of his advice.

I definitely agree with where you're coming from, but my local cardroom is brimming with people who chase. I'm almost guaranteed one caller if I push all in if someone has me covered with a 3-1 draw even if they are getting terrible pot odds, so I feel like I have to adjust and play more hit-to-win instead of straightforward poker.


I will also offer an interesting tidbit gleaned from one of my good friends at work at a table with Daniel Negreanu. She was in a MTT final table with him (Airing in January on The Travel Channel -- cool to see her on a final table on TV!) and they began to talk about hands that more or less cripple the deck. She offered up the common viewpoint that they should be slowplayed, but Negreanu argued just the opposite: play them fast. He stated that the majority of the time good players if they suspect a monster are wary of a slow play. By playing the monster fast, however, he argues that the player is representing either a semi-bluff or a lesser hand.

Food for thought. Not sure if I could play quads fast. :)

This is entirely about reading your table.

Shit players will ignore you and call anything if they have a pair or above - so you play fast.
Slightly better players will spot if you go on the attack when a potential monster flops - so you play slow.
Good players will try to spot your pattern - so you mix it up a bit, and have to second guess them.


And if you spot people are always folding to slow or fast play, nothing stops you slow or fast playing a couple of 72o hands.

Agreed- very table dependent.


I disagree. If they are drawing without the odds from the pot (or implied odds in your stack), they are in violation of the fundamental theorem of poker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_poker). You will lose a lot of pots when people draw with bad odds and still suck out. However, the pots you win when they draw and miss more than make up for the losses suffered in the long run.

But what if you know that they will chase every time and that they aren't playing by the fundamental theorem of poker?


Welcome to my local cardroom, sir.

You thank the Lord.

Thank the lord for what? You can't play with a normal bankroll because you have to expect to take $500 swings every night. It's not so unheard of to get sucked out on that much.


It's unbelievably frustrating. I posted a little while back detailing the ridiculous chances people take against you. If you think you can beat the tables, the pickings are wide open down here.

Yep. It is frustrating as hell when they draw out on you, but in the long run you will absolutely destroy them if you 'play your cards right'  :-D. In no fold 'em hold 'em games, big pocket pairs, while still great hands, lose value since so many of the pots will be multiway. You need to adjust your game accordingly- play them aggressively early but keep an eye out for ways you can be beat (usually it is some donkey who called 2 cold with K7 and flopped two pair) . Play more suited connectors and the like and look to flop big hands or big draws. Bluff much less often, but value bet your decent but not great hands more often. Most of all, stay patient, because variance is a stone cold bitch.

The Negreanu advice makes sense for NL. Everything you do is dependent on your table and opponents.

For example, a lot of people will push all-in with AK to commit themselves to a coin-flip pre-flop. This means that if your opponent is willing to commit to a coin flip and they see you push all-in they might call. What if instead of pushing all-in you put in just a raise? Now your opponent might say "well people push with AK so he probably doesn't have that - maybe he has a real monster" and folds his 99. Or what if you push with AA? He might say "well he probably has AK so my 99 is ok" and call.

A key against good players is to make your legit hands, bluffs and semi-bluffs all look the same. Another key is to understand how your play has looked to other players and adjust accordingly.

For example I sat down at a table once and got hit with the deck. I ended up winning my first 4 or 5 pots with aggressive betting, and my worst hand was maybe AJ. Even though I was playing normally I realized that everyone at the table thought I was a maniac betting anything. So from then on I didn't bluff at all (knowing people were "catching on" to my aggressive play) but I did bet heavily with huge hands and got calls out of that.

I just thought it was amazing that she got to play with Negreanu and Brunson and the like. Talk about starstruck.

A lot of this is definitely about your table. I agree that if it's "no fold 'em hold 'em", I get more cautious--no point in routinely risking all the stack against every fucking possible random draw in the deck. Some kinds of play are dependent on getting a read, and you can't get a read against a guy who will call anything and who has money to burn.

You can't seriously be arguing that you don't want people to make calls on draws when their pot odds don't justify the call. That's like bizzaro poker if you actively don't want to play with these people or have them making such calls.  Getting such calls is the entire raison d'etre of poker and the only way to make money playing. You have flipped Sklansky on his head. If you are so paranoid about losing your stack on a suck-out, you are playing at too high of monetary level with respect to your bankroll.

It sounds as if to me at least he's looking at too short a time interval to apply Slansky--sure, in any one particular night you risk losing the bankroll for that night, but over (long periods of) time you want to do as Ab says.

Yes, I can argue that.

I choose, at my local cardroom, not to push all-in if I think a guy is going to try and run me down with a draw. I'd rather just make bets that don't give him pot odds. Is that so wrong?


I don't think I have "flipped Sklansky on his head" at all. I think I'm just interpreting it differently.

Are we talking cash games or tournaments?

In a cash game even if your edge is 51% vs 49% you want to do that, +EV is +EV. In a tournament it often makes sense not to do that. Phil Hellmuth and Negreanu are both successful making small bets that give their opponents pot-odds to call.

It depends on a bunch of factors. In a tournament if you lose your bankroll you are out. If you get into 10 all-ins you *will* lose one, and even if they were individually +EV you will go broke. The better the player you are, the more you want to lower your variance even if it means lowering your EV a bit.

A lot of people are familiar with the strategy for playing games like blackjack: bet, if you lose bet twice as much, repeat. You always make your money back eventually. People approach tournaments with the opposite strategy - bet, if you win bet twice as much, repeat until you inevitably go broke.

In a cash game I'll push in on any edge. In a tournament that isn't my strategy unless I'm one of the worse players at the table.

In a word. Yes.  Because many times "bets that don't give him pot odds" is pushing and you need to be prepared to do that.

What you are doing is interpreting losing your stack as ruin (as in Risk of Ruin). It is always better to reduce your risk of ruin by giving up small marginal +EV to reduce the likelihood of ruin. No one argues that. That is what Margalis is talking about. In a tournament, losing your stack is ruin. You are out of the tournament. In a cash game, going to the felt should NEVER be ruin. If it is, you are playing way out of whack with your bankroll. You are playing with scared money and it will be seriously to your detriment. What Sklansky is talking about is not making OVER bets to the pot in excess of the amount necessary to create bad odds for your opponent. If there is a 20 dollar pot and someone is on an inside straight draw, you don't need to push 200 dollars into the pot. Sure, you would make it a 1.1-1 call and that would be stupid for anyone to call. But you can accomplish the same thing by making a 10 dollar bet and having him calling 3-1 and drawing 11-1. This is an extreme example, but could apply in lots of small-pot circumstances. No one is advocating pushing in those circumstances just because it will give them REALLY bad odds to call you. Just getting bad odds is sufficient.  This was the original poster of this issue's mistake. He pushed in well over 5-8 times the pot (tough to tell because stack size wasn't mentioned) when it was unnecessary.  Maybe that is what you are talking about and the way you phrased it means we are misinterpreting things.

What you seem to be advocating is that if a betting situation REQUIRES you to push in order to get someone out of whack when they are drawing 3-1 that you won't do it because you know they will call (even though it is a bad call for them) and you don't want to go to the felt.  That is seriously wrong from a poker perspective because you are essentially letting your opponents play correctly for fear of loosing your stack (which should not be ruin if you are managing your bankroll properly). So say a pot gets up to 100 bucks and you have 200 left behind. Your opponent has 1000 dollars. You flop TP/TK and he flops an open ended straight draw (and lets pretend you know this with certainty for the sake of illustration) with cards that won't counterfeit your TP.  He is therefore drawing 2.17-1. If you want to not give him proper odds to call you, you  need to push here. You will present him with a situation where he is calling 1.5-1, but laying 2.17-1. Nearly any other bet allows him to properly call. A 50 dollar bet gives him an overlay. A 100 bet not only gives him basically even odds, but likely cripples you and 95% of the time you will be raised your last 100 bucks in anyways and you will then have a shitty decision to make. The combination of fold equity (as even when you "know" someone will call, there is always the very real chance they will fold), but the fact that you are inducing a mistake, makes this a real no brainer.

If you can't make that push, you shouldn't be playing NL cash games. You are giving up too much. In tournaments it is a completely different calculus as mentioned because the fold equity goes up and the risk of ruin becomes a bigger factor.

You should just come post for me anytime. I'm in complete agreement with you. :)

One thing that isn't clear from Ab's post: an overbet when the opponent is calling with bad odds is fine *if* they will call it.

There are two reasons you don't want to make a huge overbet:

1. Opponent might fold.
2. Opponent might have a better hand than you think.

If your opponent has bad odds and you know they will call betting 10x the pot makes sense and is a great EV play. Unfortunately you are rarely if ever in a situation where you know for a fact the opponent will make a terrible call with a bad hand.

That is true. I should have made that more clear.

Clarity has gone awry in this thread.


Do ya'll ever play online at all? And if so, which sites? It might be fun to get in a free-chip table sometime, or watch you play in a freeroll.

I play online at PokerStars occasionally. I used to play a lot, now I play maybe once a month.

Sounds like you're playing outside of your bankroll. I thought the rule of thumb for NL was around 25 buyins. So If you're buying in for $500 you should have 10k-15k in your bankroll, not necessarily with you but in the reserves should you need it.

For limit I've always read you should have 300x big blind. I found that to be a bit high as the worst I've ever taken was around a 150bb swing to the negative but maybe that's just because i've been lucky and haven't had a REALLY bad run yet. Although that one felt really bad. Since then I've just maintained around a 200xbig blind bankroll.

I have an account at pokerstars, but rarely play it, because I find the standard of play is higher at Stars than most other rooms.

That said, I usually play NL Sit and Go, it may be better for other formats.

I'd recommend Pacific Poker.

They almost always rank near the top of Bonuswhore's automated bad player detector....

http://www.bonuswhores.com/site-utilities/game-quality-grid.php

But maybe it's just me driving up the average ;)

Play higher stakes?

If you can't beat the smaller games, playing higher 'so people respect my raises' is bankroll suicide.

Yes. However, I do suffer from "it's the only game in town" syndrome, so even if I could play higher, I can't under law.

Reading up on this thread has made me feel a bit better. I've been feeling good about how my game is progressing and had started branching out and playing not only with my friends. The last month has, however, been a fucking disaster. I don't play much, maybe once a week, at most twice. In that period I have _NOT_ won a race (out of at least 20), have been 2 outed 4 times in 3 different games for pretty big pots, have not made a flush after flopping a four flush ONCE, have missed on 2 monster draws (up and down straights with flush draws, 15 outs?). And that's not even counting ridiculous stuff like flopping trips vs a full house (JAvJ10 and a JJ10 flop). My belief in poker has taken a serious hit. Should I take a brake or ride it out? I can continue playing these stakes forever, without punishing other stuff I like to do, but I was really thinking about playing more seriously.

Also can someone link me to a bankroll management article?

I'd like to see an article on bankroll management.

This weekend was a poker weekend for me, but it didn't go so hot. Thankfully, a happy ending considering how it went.

After the first 30 minutes I'm down $200 at the No Limit $100 table (two bad beats in a row, my KK got cracked by 99, etc).  For another 4 hours I was down another $200 from a slow and steady decline, but not terrible.

At that point I decided to enroll in my first high stakes game.  I guess it was a "Fuck it." moment. Literally, I shouldn't have been at that game since that $500 was apparently my entire bankroll.  So I sat down at the $500 table with 5/10 blinds, and I have to say, the poker these guys were playing was way, way, way more my style.  No shit calls, good betting and stuff, none of that "Oh I will go in with 7 2 off suit" or "I will play for fun by raising 5 times the blind without seeing my cards", which lead to more solid play on my part because I had confidence.  All-Ins at that level were really traumatic for me but those didn't happen unless there was a damn good reason (or someone trying to steal your money).  I had some good cards early, but still could never get above even.  I was down another $150, managed to crawl back up to $460 of my original $500 stack after a couple good hands.

J10 suited on the pocket, I call the blinds, 4 other callers.  Flop comes down 9, 8, 7.  9 and 7 are Diamonds.  I have hearts.  I figure, OK, just bet something decent.  I put $75 into the pot.  The guy immediately after me bets $200.  Everyone else folds.

So I'm like "Christ."  I push all in.  That’s a new record for money in a hand for me.  I think the highest amount I've betted before was $170.

Diamond on the turn.  I just started getting up and putting my jacket on.

Fifth card was 2 of Hearts.  I flipped my cards and said "Your flush beats my straight."

The guy had 10 9, one of which was a diamond.  I stood there stupefied for about 5 seconds.

I sat down, played a little longer (the $950 I had went down as low as $750 but I recovered to $900 and decided to call it quits there), and went home breaking roughly even if I took into account the game's I had played this month.

Take your pick for bankroll management articles (http://www.google.com/search?q=poker+bankroll+management&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).

So, I am once again haunting the local card room to try and rebuild my tattered bankroll after Vegas. I have had 3 winning sessions so far, but the latest one was interesting for a non-poker reason.


Playing $4/$8 and chatting with a young kid with whom I have played before, and a younger woman sitting on my immediate right. After an hour or two, the kid comes back from the rest room and says he swears he saw Sir Mixalot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Mixalot) at the front desk of the poker room. I glance over, but it is crowded and hard to see. The guy I see looks kinda like Mix, but seems shorter than I remembered, and I say so. The young lady looks over and declares that it isn't him. She then gets up from her seat.

She returns a few minutes later laughing- she had gone to talk to her fiance, and the first thing he said was "I think I just saw Sir Mixalot!". We all laugh. A new dealer is just coming in, and the kid asks her if she knew if Mix was in the house. She mentioned that he lived in the area, but wasn't sure. As she was saying this, the guy in question walks by, and it looks a hell of a lot like him. The young lady next to me is racking up her chips to leave, and he stops right next to her. She asks if he is Sir Mixalot, and he confirms it. Cool!

Then he takes HER SEAT right next to me, and we play poker together for 3 hours or so. He is a hell of a nice guy. He happened to visit Vegas the week after I did, so we traded war stories and chatted. He isn't a great poker player (which he readily admits), but he enjoys playing now and then. A couple of people stopped by for autographs. As he was signing the first one, I ask "Do you want mine too?" The guy looked really confused, like maybe he should know me but didn't. Heh.

On my last orbit, I picked up AA and raised from the big blind. 3 callers, including Mix. Flop is QQ3 with 2 diamonds. I bet, and 2 call (including Mix). Turn is an nondiamond 5. I bet, both call. River brings a non diamond 4. I know one of them was on a flush draw, but I am not sure if someone was softplaying a Q at this point. Mix bets out into me. I just call, since I have no idea what to put him on, but have a sinking feeling I am beat. Other guy folds, and Mix turns over A2 for the rivered wheel. I laugh and show him my aces. His eyes get big as he says 'I thought you were just bullshitting since this is your last hand!'. Too funny. I fold 2 more hands, rack up my chips (+$130 for the night), tell Mix it was nice to meet him, and wander away.

All in all, one the most enjoyable poker sessions of my life.

Best article on the web regarding bankroll management imho.... 

http://www.pocketfives.com/5C57520F-8A89-43F3-97E6-54D240CB3E59.aspx

Grats on the fun night Wayabvpar, I'd be too interesting in dropping "posse on broadway" and "baby got back" references to play decent poker with him on my immediate right.

Fun story. I'll admit I wouldn't have recognized him sitting down beside me :)
 
Closest I've come to that type of encounter was missing Kevin Smith and Jason Mewes by one day at the local poker room. They apparently attracted quite the crowd.

Cool story.

Since we are playing "brush with greatness at poker table," I had Wilford Brimley play next to me for quite a while. Nice guy, terrible player. I didn't ask him about the diabeetus.

Did he like your butt?

Interesting Congressional committee hearing on repealing the internet poker ban that asshat Frist slipped into the ports bill. My favorite part was this exchange between a freshman representative from Tennasee and a witness from the Family Research Council (James Dobson's group):

Hehe that is good times. I really hope they get something passed (preferably the regulatory version of the bill) so the fishies come back to online poker.

Is there more of this? I'd like to read the entire debate, or at least find news about what's going on.  I think a lot of people are interested if the ability to gamble online in poker was restored.

All the latest and greatest of poker legislation can usually be found here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=law

Here's the rest of that exchange on "fun"



I'm looking now for a full transcript. Apparently Annie Duke was present as well and did a decent job.

The page for the hearing is here:

http://judiciary.house.gov/oversight.aspx?ID=396

Although I can't seem to find a transcript on there in my very limited poking around.

God damn it!!!

I haven't played online in a while and haven't really been keeping up but why the hell didn't anyone mention that Absolute Poker are

COMPLETE UTTER FUCKING DOUCHE BAGS!!!

That used to be where I played and I still have a couple hundred dollars there I need to figure out a way to get out.

For anyone not up on the news it appears that Absolute had super user accounts that could see the hole cards of everyone at the table. This/these account(s) were used to scam nearly 1 million dollars from unsuspecting players before they were discovered because of some smart players paying attention and yet another fuckup by Absolute customer support.

Apparently customer support sent a hand history file from an entire tournament to someone who played in the tourney. While not unusual for people to request histories, the strange thing was they showed the hole cards for everyone in the tourney whereas they usually only show the cards of those who go to a showdown at the river. The HH also included account numbers and IP addresses (important later).

Using the hand history players were able to see that a certain player never called on the river. He either raised when he had the best hand or folded when he was beat, no calls ever. Looking further they realized the only way he could possibly win a tourney playing this maniacal style was if he could see all the cards.

After further detective work it was discovered that by cross checking IP addresses w/ the account number that it was one of the former owners of Absolute who was using this account to scam people. Possible including friends of his as well.

Luckily I played at a much lower level than where this all took place so it is doubtful I would have ever been affected but it is still shady as all fuck and I will trying to get my money out of Absolute this weekend.

Heh. I read through the drama at 2p2. I think they had a 1000+ post thread every day about it for 2 weeks. What a clusterfuck. Only place I play is Pokerstars. Games are probably tougher, but they are easily the best customer service on the 'Net.

I would not trust any site with a lot of money. There isn't much incentive for the people running the site to rip you off but there is plenty of incentive for other employees and players. On the Stars 100-200 limit table I've seen what looked like obvious collusion.

Yea - it's not hard to get at the same table as a couple friends and get on Ventrillo...

PokerStars sent me $5 free today. That was pretty cool. I like trying to see how much I can build on free money, a la Chris Ferguson.

They also have a promo running through Sunday for deposits via eCheck- 50% bonus on the deposit up $50 ($100 deposit). If you plan to play there, it is basically free money.

Unfortunately, it feels like playing LOTRO on PokerStars. Why is the interface so slow?

How do you mean slow? Laggy? Or just hard to use? There are people who play 12-16 tables at a time, so it can't be THAT slow  :grin: I usually get overwhelmed after 3 or 4.

Hehe I've been trying the short-stacking method Ferguson used when he did that challenge. All I can say is that variance is a bitch...

The controls just feel slow. I always feel like I am waiting ten minutes for my hand to come and whatnot. I like to see a lot of hands per hour. As of today though, my BR is hovering around $12. Doing alright so far! :D


Edit: If you can play micro (insane rake) to about $10, the $3 + $.25 6 player sit-n-gos are pretty weak. I've won 50% so far, and I'm by no means a good player.

Poker is the gift that keeps on giving for me. It's like "another game" sort of, a strategy pvp game. Except when I win, I get money. I sometimes wish all games were like that, because I'd be very rich. I just wish I could stick with it longterm, I get tired of it for a while like I do with every other game. I cash out most of my money and buy some goodies. When I come back I'm still limited to low stakes because my bankroll is too small (due to cashing out). If I had stuck with it for the last couple years I could be doing it professionally most likely.

And now it's time for "Show your Sharkscope" time! Sharkscope is a great site that tracks the Sit'n'Go results from most of the major poker sites. If you're big into tourneys like I am then it should have a pretty good record of your results. You can only do 5 searches a day unless you pay, but it's still pretty cool to check out your progress.

My Sharkscope (http://www.sharkscope.com/index.html?username=bbenvie&network=pokerstars&showgraphs=true)

Keep in mind that only tracks Sit'n'Gos. Any scheduled tournaments won't be displayed.


It's amazing how people can be so good at one type of poker and so bad at another. I lose money in ring games like crazy. It get frustrated and piss away my money pretty quick usually. But with tournament I'm a lot more focused and I can see the finish line, the goal. I get very positive results in tourneys, from single table to multi-table to huge tourneys.

According to Sharkscope I'm down a dollar, but it only has 5 results total.

I make my money on Stud 8 anyway.

Yeah, it's only useful to heavy tourney players, specifically Sit'n'Go's.

Hmm, neat idea, but not overly accurate. Only shows me having played 2 SnGs at Party Poker, and says I lost them both. Considering I've made money on two of the last three I played, and have at least a dozen played there, I'd say the tracker needs work.

Had our company Christmas party on the weekend at the local casino. Arranged for a private table for some of us. Making money off of your co-workers isn't hard when you're the only sober one. I almost felt bad. Almost.

I hadn't played in a very long time but stopped by the local reservation casino up by la gallina's parents' place over thanksgiving. Since I was so rusty and all they had were no limit games, I played basic push/fold "ed miller/kill phil" style.  Folded hands for almost an hour straight, went all in (with KK) and got 3 callers, so there are still plenty of dumbasses out there (at least at small limits in western new york).  Boring as hell to play that way though. I miss 1999 when all I needed was lee jones and a very half-assed understanding of implied odds to do pretty well at real casinos. I really hate that no-limit has taken over the world. When I was last in LV a year ago it was hard to find a fun loose/passive limit table except at the very lowest limits (most limit tables seemed to be rock gardens full of old-timers), and I'm sure it is worse now.

I agree. The NL craze is really annoying me. It takes a lot of the fish with deep pockets away from the limit games. The fish also lose their money MUCH faster, so they aren't around to make the games better. Overall very bad for the poker scene imo.

I think my Sharkscope is off too. I have written down that I've won 3, seconded 2, and lost 6. I'm not sure how this works. :o

Ding! I hate NL ring games and they have become a cancer on B&M poker rooms.

You guys are savvy to the actual playing of poker in the world in a way that I am not--the best I can do is get a day of B&M playing at the Borgata or LV once or twice a year, and then some online play.

I've mostly played at Poker Stars over the last few years, small stakes SnG and NL ring games for money, and freerolls/FPP stuff of various kinds. I've just been feeling the last couple of months unnerved by some of the patterns I feel like I'm seeing. Not even stuff that involves me losing directly, but watching some of the hands come down. I was playing a regular cash tourney, not turbo rounds, the other day and I was at a table with one player for a long time. In about 90 minutes, I watched him get four four-card straights where he went all-in with a face card and low kicker against high pockets (99 and up), all of those straights made on the low card. He went all-in with low pockets against high pockets three times and made trips all three times. He went all-in on dominated face cards (AQ against AK, KJ against KQ) and drew the underpair on the turn first time, river second time. Needless to say, he was the top stack in the tournament when I went out (to another player, on a JJ v. QQ, with me holding JJ).

Sure, it can happen: anything can happen if you see enough hands quickly enough. I've always thought that the people who say that the big sites are rigged are tinfoil hat brigades who don't understand probability (e.g., they think that AA is an automatic win rather than a probable win, and think it's a conspiracy any time they lose with it), who don't understand that online poker is faster and therefore more odd hands will be seen, who don't understand that more people in low-stakes online tournaments will pay to go to the river and therefore increase the number of suckouts seen, and so on.

But lately I've just been getting this corrosive sense that I'm seeing too much shit that I shouldn't be seeing at a frequency that shouldn't be. It doesn't even have to be rigging: it could just be a lousy shuffling algorithim. Tell me that it's just a "keys under the streetlight" thing, a pattern noticed because I'm looking for it...

It is human nature to only remember the 'interesting' hands. Because you see so many more hands online (especially if you play more than one table at a time), you WILL see more low probability scenarios play out than you would playing live for the same amount of time. I have taken more than my share of ridiculously bad beats at PokerStars (especially lately...grrrrr), but of all the online sites, I would put my trust in them before anyone else.

The major problem with online games atm is that the UIGEA and state laws are severely cutting down the number of players who can/will play online. When you do that, only the ones who REALLY want to play will play. Passionate players are more likely to be at least competent, so (at least for me), the profit margin for playing online has fallen off a cliff.

Lee Rousso (http://www.leeroussoforgovernor.org/) is running for governor of Washington, and Barney Frank (among others) is working to repeal parts of the UIGEA to allow for online poker. Hopefully we will get a better game in the next few years.

I read through Poker Star's description of their shuffling algorithm -- assuming what they've stated is true, they've done an excellent job there. (I had a burning professional need for truly random numbers at the time, but my boss drew the line at buying hardware to turn thermal noise in the case into random seeds....ass!).

WayAbvPar's probably right -- you remember the interesting stuff. If it bugs you, keep track of it all -- boring and interesting. There's enough math geeks floating around the net to analyze it. :)

IF they legalize gambling online poker and set up some oversight over the operations, i.e. some transparency on algorithms and some rules about certifying operations with regular reviews by the gambling commissions the whole thing would feel a lot more secure.

There is no reason they couldn't keep two people from the same IP block playing at the same table or not allow connections through known, open proxies as well as other anti-collusion efforts.

At the moment I can think of half a dozen different ways to cheat at online poker and that keeps me away.

I'm much more concerned about collusion. Since you don't play against the house there really isn't much reason to stack the deck. But I see plenty of chip-dumping in tournaments and things like that.

So I decide to finally sit down and play some of that god forsaken NL cash game because the other game is just lame now. Heh, ran it over for 400 bucks in only about an hour and a half of playing.  Was playing 1/2 blind no limit and it played like low limit with 5-6 seeing the flop even after raises of 5BB. Was glorious.  I'll probably have the misfortune of now playing in 10 straight games of boring-ass NL just to make up for it.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/Lorekeep/PokerFace01.jpg)

Thank you, F13.  You have given me a winning poker face.

I wonder if the portrait you pick determines the type of hands you'll get.

Flop Top Pair with Flush Draw, go All In, Second Best Pair Calls, gets his set?  :awesome_for_real:

All In with AK Preflop, 7 2 suited calls, manages a straight?  :drill:

I don't claim to be an expert cash NL player, but in my mind, this is a mistake in most cash-game circumstances. Much of the proper strategy in such games is manipulating pot odds post-flop and you just deprive yourself of the ability to do that with a hand that is either a big dog (to AA KK), a coin-flip (to underpairs) or at best a 60-40 favorite (against suited underconnectors). I don't think you will get many calls from hands you dominate like AQ or AJ to make the play worth it.

EDIT: I should say that if there is a chunk of money in pre-flop before it gets to you and you have a decent level of fold equity, the play would be more worthwhile but still marginal.

It was a play money tournament with a ridiculously low buy-in by Play Money standards.  I wouldn't go all-in, ever, with AK pre-flop unless I was short-stacked.  Doubly so in a cash game.

First hand of a 20000 person tournament over the weekend- I am in late position with AA. Early position raises to 90, mid position reraises to 300. I make a gargantuan reraise to 3000 (my whole stack), hoping to make it look like a steal. Apparently it worked, since both of them called and I tripled up on the first hand. Got AA 5 hands later and dropped 3k of it back when someone called a preflop raise, a 2/3 pot-sized bet on the flop, and a pot sized bet on the turn with T7 and made a runner runner straight.  Donkeys give, and they take away.

I have a proposition for some of us on this site. I'm sure most of you play online somewhere out there -- perhaps you buy-in, perhaps you just play freerolls. I had an idea as I was rifling through the freerolls available to me today: Would anyone be interested in attempting to build a bankroll with me (almost like a club)?



The reason why I want someone to do this with me is because I have the awful problem of managing a bankroll, but I play good poker. Last time I did this, I made it up to around $15.00 on UB, but my tilts usually leave me penniless and angry at myself for busting a bankroll I've worked for months to up from a small amount (say .50).


Any takers?

You could do a microstakes version of the Open Internet Challenge (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=390626&page=0&view=&sb=5&o=0&fpart=). Good way to build discipline and bankroll.

Yes. I'm looking to do something like that, but I need people to keep me honest. "Honor bound" doesn't work with me. I've taken two freeroll bankrolls to $35 and $15 respectively, but I need some sort of accountability.

That's what I was looking for more or less with my post.  :grin:

You can report to us here weekly or something. Good poker is all about self-discipline. Until you learn it, you can have all talent and luck in the world, but you will eventually go broke if you can't learn to play within your limits and manage your bankroll.

I have a tiny bankroll (like $140) left on Pokerstars. I am going to try a version of the OIC playing baby NL games (I will have to look at the games available to decide where I will start). The limit games have really become rock gardens, so the only way to make any money is to either play 24 tables like a robot, or learn NL. Or play SnGs and tournaments, which I do as well.

I don't play online any more since it became such a hassle.

I have AA preflop, big raise, 97 suited calls, flops a set.

Why would 97 suited call against a big raise???  And flop a SET?!  What's the statistical odds of that happening?

First, what's his stack, how's he been playing, did you meet a big reraise on the flop after (I assume) your continuation bet?

Thinks he can move you off the flop. Or is an idiot. Probably the latter.


AA is going to 20% of the time to that.

But see, here's the thing. You WANT to play against people who call big raises with 97. Yes, it sucks to lose to them but most of the time you'll win and make money. Never complain that an idiot got lucky, because you want idiots to play like idiots.

If you are again talking about play money, the negative result is irrelevant so why not just push with 97.  Really, trying to analyze play money games is pointless. 

To answer your question, the odds of flopping trips with 2 unpaired cards is 73.2 to 1.

Sort of poker related so it goes here...

For those of you who don't normally read 2+2 please bask in the glory of all that is Sklansky:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=141276


This has to be one of the best trolls I have ever read.

LOL. Sklansky has been on a tear in NVG the past few days, it appears.


In other poker news, I have become addicted to HORSE. It is nearly unfathomable how bad players are in the lowball portions, especially Razz. I have played 2 very low limit tournies this week and made the final table on both, with probably 70% of my chips coming from Razz. First tourney I finished 8th out of 448. A couple of days later, I finished 2nd out of 504.

 Last hand was brutal too- we were playing 0/8. I was dealt AK67, with the AK suited. Not a great hand by any stretch, but decent for heads up.
Flop was 2 5 A rainbow. I had top pair and a made 7 for low. I decided to make my stand, and we eventually get all the money in (he outchipped me about 2/1 at this point). He turns over 34xx, and I am drawing nearly dead. Turn and river don't help, and I lose both pots to the dreaded wheel.

HORSE is a lot of fun. Most people have a clue how to play Hold Em, so if you can just keep even there and take advantage of your big hands you will do fine. Omaha Hi/Lo split (0/8) is also gaining popularity, but you will still some unbelievably bad play (had a guy raise from UTG with 6789 3 suited, for instance). Razz is where I make the lion's share of my money. I don't do quite as well in strictly Razz tourneys, since they will be mostly filled with people who actually know how to play. Stud I just try to play tight and take advantage when the opportunity arises; I tend to fold my way through most of the segment. Stud Hi/Lo (Stud-Eight) I really dislike for some reason. I always seem to get mediocre to bad hands, and end up playing more hands than I should after playing so tight in regular Stud.

I can't figure out what that Sklansky post is even about.

I've always disliked Sklansky anyway.

Edit: I love stud 8.

I haven't been active at 2+2 for years, but that shit is just awesome.  Half-blind inbreds, blackmail, poker, extortion, death threats, vibrators, panty shots, threesomes.  Holly crap.

JERRY! JERRY!

What.

No, seriously.

What.

Why would anyone ever ever post there with an administrator like that?

Christ, it's as if Hyu himself were running a forum and he was the child of blogger.com and myspace.

It's basically the top poker forum there is (or at least used to be). Sklansky isn't really an admin there. He writes books and probably co-owns the 2+2 company, but everyone knows he is a creepy-goofball-loon and Malmuth basically runs the show.

Well I am back from my first Vegas trip this year. Stayed at Hooters (shithole) for one night, the MGM (nice) for 3 nights, and the Trop (nice but dated) for 3 nights.

Played poker exclusively at the MGM. Other that one very unsuccessful $65 tourney I played NL $1/$2 for about 30-35 hours during the trip. It would have been more but I threw my back out Friday night and wasted two days laying on the floor of the MGM flat on my back.

Total for the trip: +$150 after all expenses.

Poker winnings: +$1200.

NL $1/$2 is absolutely delicious.

Just one hand that I'll recount as it was over a $600 pot.

I'd been playing an afternoon session for a few hours already and had about $400 in front of me. A complete lagtard sits down and proceeds to either raise or play every single hand for about 30-45 minutes and is actually pulling in more than he's losing. He's up to somewhere around $300.

I'm on the button (in seat 2) and lagtard is in middle position at the other corner (seat 7). Lagtard raises to $12, one caller between, I look down at KK. I pop it to $25, lagtard calls, other guy folds. Heads up to the flop.

Flop: Js2s2x

Lagtard Checks, I bet $50 to attempt to either push him off the flush draw or get paid by his J if he has one. Watching him play if he has a J we might be getting it all in here.

Lagtard just calls. Ok, so he's got the flush draw.

Turn is a blank.

Lagtard checks, I make the pussy play and check behind since I know he's calling any bet I make and I fear the flush in an already $150+ pot. Yeah I play weak-tight...

River is the beautiful Ks.

Lagtard insta-bets $100. I think for a sec and reraise all in. He calls and flips up 8s9s for the non-nut flush. I show the boat and rake down a huge pot and say goodbye to captain over-aggressive.

I cashed out a little over $700 a bit later.


Edit: I'm now very much looking forward to trip #2 in May. Although it's only a 3 nighter and for a bachelor party so not sure how much (siober) play time I'll get.

MGM is a good room for low limit stuff. I just wish they would get rid of the marble at the edge of the tables. That is really annoying. A lot of people complain about the noise since it is open to the casino, but that is part of what I love about it. It is kind of fun to drag a big pot in front of a bunch of railbirds  :grin: I also just LOVE the energy of a casino floor.

I am trying to learn NL cash by playing NL25 and a bit of NL50 on Pokerstars. My RL bankroll isn't in a place where I feel comfortable playing 2/5 NL (actually spread limit up to $500 max bet) at my normal casino, so this is all I can do atm. I am pretty sure the online games play a hell of a lot tougher than the live games do anyway, so it will be good practice.



Why such a small raise? With a player like that, I am more inclined to make a big overbet to make it look like I am trying to steal. He will see this as a threat to his manhood and drastically overplay his hand so I can play for his whole stack.



Letting him draw for free is criminal here imo.

Still, it sucks major balls and can put you on tilt if you make the statistically right call and watch them make that out they so desperately needed.  As much as I try to be  :awesome_for_real: when that happens, I'm usually  :uhrr:.

You're giving me ideas for a Vegas trip though.

The small raise was because of the table texture. Oddly enough the 6x initial raise was standard and would still get 3-4 callers but often any reraise would get everyone to fold immediately, even Mr. laggy. I wanted action from at least one of the two hence the min-raise.

And yes, the free draw was absolutely horrible. I still have a bit of a disconnect when I'm playing live poker between what my brain says to do and what my hands actually end up doing. It took me until probably the 3rd or 4th session before I was able to disconnect the real dollar value from the chips themselves and start making proper bet sizes without regard to real world value. At that point in time though it would have been difficult for me to make a $100ish bet knowing there was a real chance of me losing it even though I know that would have been the proper play.

I posted a little bit longer (and probably less interesting) trip report here:
http://www.allvegaspoker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579

I have the same problem. NL is a very different feel from limit- being able to go broke with one badly played hand is sobering.

Thanks for the TR link! I am a sucker for Vegas stories  :grin:

Interesting timing as I was typing the last post our daily newsletter hit my inbox and had this article...

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/glr.2008.12105?cookieSet=1

Interesting. Now have someone staple that study to Kyl's forehead and let's get the UIGEA revoked, or at least a poker exception written into it.

Nice TR. You got me salivating over the MGM room. I'm staying at the MGM Signature which are those condo towers right behind the main place starting tomorrow. I'll probably end up playing there a bit although I've been battling a wicked chest cold for 5 days now and I think that is still a smoking room, so I might have to go to Bellagio instead.

A bit late here, but I was in Phoenix over Super Bowl weekend (no, we didn't get tickets) and the casino there is fucking limit game gold.  There's apparently some state law limiting the maximum size of any particular bet to $150 or something, so they basically can't run no-limit games.  They do run some sort of capped pot limit game, but the overwhelming majority of the tables are limit games. It's like pre-poker-on-ESPN-every-day all over again.

Hey man, long time no see!

I loved playing down there at the Indian place up the freeway from Scottsdale (Casino Arizona or some such) and I agree with your take. I took down the largest limit pot in my poker career in that place playing 4-8. Went to the river 5 ways capped every street and I had a baby boat. Funny thing was that I didn't raise a single time.

The MGM room is no smoking but it's basically open to the rest of the casino so while you won't have someone puffing away right next to you you'll still smell the smoke. The air circulation seemed decent though and I was able to adjust, even coming from Ohio where EVERYTHING is now no smoking.

The odd thing about the MGM room was I actually found the afternoon games to be fishier than the early evening games. It seemed there were more hit-and-runs during the afternoon where people would sit with $200 knowing they only have an hour or two to play before the wife/girlfriend would drag them away and they'd end up playing very laggy because of that.

Almost every night I played around 9:00PM the same group of 7-8 locals wanna-be pro's came in and played either $1/$2 NL or $2/$5 NL. Having 2 or 3 of them at your table really tightens things up and people just aren't drunk enough yet for the games to be stellar.

Of course post 2:00AM was also a good time as that's when my drunk Canadian friend sat down and decided to donk off a couple buy-ins including calling down to the river over $100 without ever looking at his cards.

Had to cancel my trip.  :cry:

Owwie. I feel your pain.

We were able to reschedule without losing any money. The hotel was really cool about it as their policy is actually to forfeit the deposit for changes but they didn't do that and Southwest Airlines seriously kicks ass.  We'll actually end up saving about 150 bucks. Heh.

Nice. So you still get to go?

Just a bit later than expected?

Ya, going later next month. We are cursed with vacations though so who knows. The last two we have tried both had to be canceled, once because my wife go sick and this time because I did.

Does Alaska fly out of SLC? They have a pretty damned good mileage program. They recently added a dining club that gives you miles when you eat at certain restaurants (lots of them in my area, obviously, - haven't checked Utah). Between that, Safeway miles, and flying back and forth to SoCal for work a couple of years back, I have a free round trip ticket ready to go. Used credit card miles last time...I am hoping I can work it so I rarely have to pay for a plane ticket. If only I was a high roller who could get a hotel to fly me in  :uhrr:

Not sure if they do but if so they aren't a big presence. Southwest has 8 flights to Vegas from SLC daily so they are very convenient. I was just amazed that they simply let us change the flight. My wife had already checked in for this flight that was scheduled for this afternoon (wouldn't let me check in online because I am on the no fly list, yay!) yet they still just switched the ticked straight up this morning and because the fare was lower we have a $30 credit with them.

EDIT: Going to be there (hopefully) from April 17-20 if anyone else is going to be around.

I can't swing it until the fall, if then.

I'll be back out May 15-18th for a bachelor party  :-)

Two trips to vegas in 3 months. Maybe I can convince the wife we should make a third trip out in Sept or Oct for our vacation together. Doubtful but ya gotta have a dream...

I hopped up to Vegas Saturday morning at 1 am after a decent payday.  I arrived at 6 am and sat down at the MGM Poker Room.  It seems nice but I'm surprised that all these poker rooms felt so small.  I sat down at $1 / $2 NL and played for about 2 hours, finishing up $100 up.  At that point I needed to sleep and then went to my room (car).  2 hours of fitless sleep, or as I like to call it, "Power Nap", I got up and decided to walk over to the Excalibur.

The Excalibur sucks.

I lost the $100 and went as far as an additional $700 down due to some massively bad beats.  I'm talking KK's being cracked by 99's on the river, A9 vs. A8 losing to an 8 on the river, etc.  There was a pot with about $800 in the pot, I had a flush draw, two other guys had a straight, and the fourth guy had two pair.  I was trying to just call but every other person in the hand kept raising, such that I'd call the raise and then the guy after me would re-raise on the turn.  But if I hit that flush, I would have gotten up and probably enjoyed the rest of my Vegas trip.

Nope!

The guy who made the biggest raise ($100) on the two-pair hit his full house and sucked out everyone else.  So I played for awhile and managed to work my way back up to $200 down after a rally of good cards, but I was still getting out of there at 9 pm, vowing never to go back.

I wandered Vegas for awhile, but ultimately was too tired, felt like I was too cheap, sober (I was feeling pretty bad and didn't feel like drinking), modest and friendless to really enjoy Vegas, and went back to my room (car) to try and get 8 hours of sleep.

3 hours later...

I decided to wake up and go to the MGM again, hoping that the 2 am nuts was true.  It was! But I didn't get the cards to support it.  I ended up another $200 down for a trip total of about $500 spent including cash and food.  Two people at the table I'm at bought in for $200 and walked away with $1000.  Those were the guys who managed to consistently hit hands that improved theirs.  After about 6 am, I lost my $200 buy-in and just decided to drive back home instead of trying to spend Sunday in Vegas.  I was rather feeling like playing video games.

If I'm in Vegas for whatever reason I'll go back, but I'm not going to drive up there by myself again, that's for sure.

Awesome...

Another huge scandal in online poker as Ultimate Bet is going down in flames. I'm still reading through the thread but it's pretty interesting:

• More SuperUser accounts that can see hole cards
• Links to the AP scandal (same guy bought both AP & UB)
• Millions of dollars in refunds
• Links to organized crime etc...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=214625&page=3

Look for the posts by Cornell Fiji for the detailed info...

Yeah, that has been a serious clusterfuck for over a year now. I can't believe people still play there.

I have been shortstacking NL200 on PS. I am still learning the ins and outs of NL cash, so I shortstack to mitigate the costs of any mistakes while still playing high enough to earn FPPs at a decent rate (should make Silver Star this month). I have had a pretty damned good month overall- tripled my account balance (but have taken about 40% of  that out).

I still play on FullTilt and Stars probably about 4-5 hours per week.

The last 5-6 months though have been frustrating. I've consistently followed the same pattern of playing $5-$10 sit&go's, slowly grinding and winning around $100, taking that $100 and 4-tabling NL25 and losing it all in a single night.

You may ask why I don't just concentrate on Sit&Go's and move up levels there? My only answer would be that I am functionally retarded...

That, and the fact that playing Sit N Go's all the time would drive you insane. The Variance Beast feasts on those damned things.

Had the need to spend time playing poker this weekend.  Smart decision on my part... went to the local casino and have racked up about $930.

Memorable Hands:

JJ vs AK & K9, Flop are all undercards, Turn = King, so I'm out $60 there.

A9 Suited, Flop = K, 5, 9, K & 5 are my suit.  Bet $25 on the flop, one caller.  Next card is a 9.  Bet $50, caller pushes All-In after much anguish, I call, $500 (total) in the pot.  He had KQ.  Next card: K.  Nailed one of his two outs! Ugh!

Those were the bad ones... now here's the fun one.

I have AQ and bet $15 pre-flop.  I have one caller: the guy to my immediate left who was LITERALLY packing up about $250 in chips and was going to leave the table.  Flop comes down AA5.  I bet $20 this time, he calls.  Next card is a Q.  I bet $40.  He calls.  Next card is a 10.  I put him All-In, he calls.  He had pocket 10's.  I flipped my Full House and did a dance.  The guy put the empty rack aside and walked away with maybe $20 in chips all sadface.

I'm the Big Blind with AA (I had AA like 5 times, all uncracked, all big paydays, AK, JJ, KK, so many good cards that day), everyone's called.  I bet 15.  EVERYONE calls except the guy before the dealer button who pushes all in for $35.  He's ready to leave.  One caller, one fold.  I bet $200.  I get amazed reactions of "WTF?" as everyone around folds and the second caller pushes all-in for $86.  I throw my Aces over and much swearing ensues.  The $86 all in guy had AJ.  One other guy at the table had AK but folded them since I had him covered (Damn!).

Edit: Weekend total came to $1215 earned, minus expenses, not including a gas tank refill ($50).  Third day at the casino wasn't as magical as Saturday but I still made out alright, but there was a stretch where I got nothing for about 2 or 3 solid hours.  Most of the money I made came in the end (flopping straights or hitting my flushes on the turn / river).

Reading your post has reminded me that pickup games at local casinos are more about luck and drawing cards than playing ability.  The more mainstream poker has gotten, the less fun the game has become.  Bluffing is all but pointless in most houses as people will call you with rags for the hope of snagging something on the turn or river.  Sadly, they often get rewarded for their actions. 


Note: No offense to your personal playign ability was intended.

If you don't go to the table hoping and praying that people call you with rags you are doing it wrong.

The most important thing I learned about this session is that I'm able to better handle when things go bad.  As much as  :uhrr: as the KQ guy was, I was still able to keep going and end up on top.  If I had quit right there I'd be $1100 poorer.

I still have a physical limit of about 6 hours or so, longer depending if I see good cards every now and then, and I'm able to play the people more than playing the cards (though having the cards helps), and I'm able to do the right bets, so I think I've hit a good level where I can make good money in poker.  I used to hang in arcades and watch people play games, so I don't view this as anything different.

I guess what I'm trying to articulate is that I would rather lose to a skilled player that flat outplayed me than someone that doesn't understand the game hitting hot cards all afternoon.  I find the latter too frustrating to be enjoyable.  Since I don't play cards for a living, it's really about the enjoyment I get from the game.  

I understand what you're saying Ab.  I'd just rather play with good players and lose than win money from a frustrating experience.  My fun comes from an appreciation of the game far more than winning a few dollars. 

Come play at my table any time. People who would rather lose are always welcome.



My last two hands in cash games with AA (these were about 10 minutes apart, btw)-

 
POKERSTARS GAME #18611339368:  HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/07/05 - 21:41:44 (ET)

Table 'Marcelle' 9-max Seat #9 is the button

Seat 1: Aussieboy355 ($32 in chips)

Seat 2: zawaaa ($120 in chips)

Seat 3: SongheJe ($40 in chips)

Seat 4: ChipRick ($325.35 in chips)

Seat 6: MUCKUALL 111 ($150.90 in chips)

Seat 7: Noa Stephan ($381.60 in chips)

Seat 8: wayabvpar ($78.75 in chips)

Seat 9: Hitman-180 ($292.90 in chips)

Aussieboy355: posts small blind $1

zawaaa: posts big blind $2

Senecady: sits out

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to wayabvpar [As Ac]

SongheJe: folds

ChipRick: folds

MUCKUALL 111: folds

Noa Stephan: folds

wayabvpar: raises $4 to $6

Hitman-180: calls $6

Aussieboy355: folds

zawaaa: raises $14 to $20

wayabvpar: raises $58.75 to $78.75 and is all-in

Hitman-180: calls $72.75

zawaaa: raises $41.25 to $120 and is all-in

Hitman-180: calls $41.25

*** FLOP *** [2c Qs Ks]

*** TURN *** [2c Qs Ks] [4h]

*** RIVER *** [2c Qs Ks 4h] [8h]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

zawaaa: shows [Kd Kh] (three of a kind, Kings)

Hitman-180: mucks hand

zawaaa collected $82.50 from side pot

wayabvpar: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)

zawaaa collected $234.25 from main pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $319.75 Main pot $234.25. Side pot $82.50. | Rake $3

Board [2c Qs Ks 4h 8h]

Seat 1: Aussieboy355 (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 2: zawaaa (big blind) showed [Kd Kh] and won ($316.75) with three of a kind, Kings

Seat 3: SongheJe folded before Flop (didn't bet)



POKERSTARS GAME #18611548250:  HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/07/05 - 21:53:08 (ET)

Table 'Lagrula' 9-max Seat #2 is the button

Seat 1: Noa Stephan ($184 in chips)

Seat 2: Aussieboy355 ($34 in chips)

Seat 3: BenHoganJr ($366.85 in chips)

Seat 4: Zween78 ($37 in chips)

Seat 5: mrhotpicks2 ($95.85 in chips)

Seat 6: OleLucky ($381.35 in chips)

Seat 7: omnishakira ($203 in chips)

Seat 8: wayabvpar ($90 in chips)

Seat 9: SongheJe ($75.75 in chips)

BenHoganJr: posts small blind $1

Zween78: posts big blind $2

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to wayabvpar [Ah Ac]

mrhotpicks2: calls $2

OleLucky: folds

omnishakira: folds

wayabvpar: raises $8 to $10

SongheJe: folds

Noa Stephan: folds

Aussieboy355: folds

BenHoganJr: folds

Zween78: folds

mrhotpicks2: raises $25 to $35

wayabvpar: raises $55 to $90 and is all-in

mrhotpicks2: calls $55

*** FLOP *** [Jc Qc Th]

*** TURN *** [Jc Qc Th] [Qd]

*** RIVER *** [Jc Qc Th Qd] [Ts]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

mrhotpicks2: shows [Ad Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace)

wayabvpar: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Queens)

mrhotpicks2 collected $180 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $183 | Rake $3

Board [Jc Qc Th Qd Ts]

Seat 1: Noa Stephan folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: Aussieboy355 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: BenHoganJr (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 4: Zween78 (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 5: mrhotpicks2 showed [Ad Ks] and won ($180) with a straight, Ten to Ace

Seat 6: OleLucky folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 7: omnishakira folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 8: wayabvpar showed [Ah Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Queens

Seat 9: SongheJe folded before Flop (didn't bet)





~80% favorite in the first hand, ~91% in the second hand. Got all my money in as a huge favorite both times. Also lost 2 huge pots with KK the past couple of days. Poker is a cruel game.

Good news is I took $500 out of my account to help pay for my new golf clubs!

Nice work twisting the quote. 

Tough beat on the trip kings.  Ouch.

I can sympathze with how frustrating suckouts can be Nebu.  One of the problems with today's game is that it is hard to find a good low or mid limit game.  Everything is no limit now.  Getting sucked out on in limit can at least be semi-fun because you only lose a limited amount of big bets, you can give the guy some grief, get the table loosened up, and be pretty confident that it will come back around to you with the percentages evening out.  With the NL game, one big suckout can put you to the felt and then you watch the nitwit dump your chips to a decent player so you likely won't get them back.  No limit has wildly increased variance and therefore the time horizon for long term success in evening out the suckouts is much longer.  If you don't play much your individual session will be far more sensitive to that variation, so I can understand how you would feel that way.

That said, I'd still rather play with fish than sharks.  You just need to adjust.  No bluffing, value betting and playing hands that work well in multiway pots in late position become keys to those types of games.

What kind of cards are those? I got a lot of mileage out of the first two and I THINK I'm doing the third...

Browsing the poker thread, found this humorous.  From Sunday's Game:

Dealt: Ah 10c, raise to 10, 1 or 2 callers.

Flop: 10d, 7h, 6h.  I bet 15 or 20, one caller. 

Turn: 10h.  I chuckle a bit and bet 30.  The guy called. 

River: 4h.  I told the guy "Boy you are getting a lot of help there." before betting $50.  He tossed the chips in and I flipped my flush.  Much disgust ensued.

I saw some pretty hilarious expressions when I would play people into thinking I didn't hit the flush or was only playing top pair.

Suited connectors, small pairs (only until the flop to see if you get a set) and Ax suited.  You need to bein late position, have an unraisesd pot with multiple people in before you and a good sense that it won't be raised after you or if it will thwn everyone will come along for a cheap raise.  You need to be willing to let them go on the flop if you don't hit or have solid pot odds to take a card.  Decent NL players will screw with every one of these conditions which makes it tough to play them in that type of game.

That's somewhat what I figured.  Suited Connectors got me some big money last night by flopping a straight vs. KK's.

Tuesday night a bad time to play? The poker success I was having has gotten me to want to go back in my free time and ride this pony until I stop.  But I think going on Friday, Saturday and Sunday on a Holiday Weekend helped contribute to people making stupid calls.  Not sure... but I know I read something in a poker book about how going certain days is a good / very bad thing.

I play semi-profesionally on tilt.  (not that I'm that good, but I don't have a job and try to play as if it were my job atm).  Night time any night should be decent, but the weekends are always much softer.  Just don't play between 2-6 EST weekdays imo.  Worst time to play ever.  Earlier than that you have euro fish playing late, later than that you have north american people coming home from work.  In the middle are the people who don't have anything to do but play poker all day which is generally fail.

Life has been pretty awesome for me pokerwise the last few months.  I took first in a 1400 person $10 rebuy tourney, and then moved up to 1/2 and have been crushing it so far, albeit at a very low sample size.

As far as suited connectors go, remember that they are pretty useless unless you are deep enough to make your implied odds worth it.   Definitely never call a raise out of position or if you are not both deep stacked.  Unless you have a read that you can bluff the guy off of hands it will not be profitable in the long run.  Nothing wrong with being first in pot late position raising with sc or suited gappers tho, that should be pretty standard, and many players won't put you on those hands.

Abagadro, I'm in SLC as well, if you'd ever like to talk poker let me know. 

Cool man.  Grats on running well.  Do you ever go out to Wendover to play?  My trip frequency has gone way down as the games out there seem to have turned to shit.

I only played there a few times, and was not particularly impressed.  I always meant to go out more though, because I definitely need to practice my live game.

I did used to go to vegas fairly often with some friends when gas prices were lower.  Unfortunately, the cost of that trip is pretty brutal these days.


Off topic but poker related, this is probably the best photoshop I've ever seen:  http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=244128

Hahaha that is awesome. They needed to 'shop some dice in his hands though.

Any online players interested in a friendly low limit SnG on PS? Gimme a holler and we can set something up.

I used to do online but it sort of defeats the point of what I'm trying to do now ... get out and be around other people and be social.

Scored another $230 at the tables last night.  I am going to see how long I can keep this streak up, though I did have one big gamble last night (A 10 with top pair (10's) vs. JJ's, $100 bet, got Ace on the River) that would have affected my take by about $170 (my stack after the call).

I would love to do a friendly little F13 poker game on PS, haven't played in ages.

I'd like to play too but don't have any money on PS and don't know how to fund an account under the new rules.

I hadn't had any money on there for at least a year. A friend of mine still played, and I asked him how he funded his account. He told me he just used his credit union debit card. I have an account at the same CU, so I tried it. Easy enough! Unfortunately, cashing out is a bit more of a PITA, but if I do it in chunks of $500 or more it is also pretty easy.

If you want to arrange something via Paypal or the like I can probably front you a couple of hundred. PM me.

I won by losing a few weeks back at the local casino.

I'd been playing 3-6 limit for about 2 hours, was getting to know the people at the table and was up about $80 on top of the $100 I started with.

I was in early position and was dealt AA.  Raised pre-flop, got 3 callers, one on the button.  Flop was 88A.  I bet, 2 folds, button raises, I call.  Turn 10.  Bet, raise, call.  River 10.  Check, bet, call.   Button says to me "you have the aces?"  I turn them up.  He says "Jackpot!" and flips over his pocket 8s.

Fort McDowell casino (east from Scottsdale AZ, in Fountian Hills) has a progressive bad-beat jackpot running.. it ticks upward based on the rake they are getting from the tables running in the poker room.  If a full-house or better is beat by quads or better, the jackpot pays to the table, with the losing hand on the table (that'd be my aces full of 10s) getting 50%, the winning hand (quad 8s) getting 25%, and the rest of the table splitting the last 25%.

Slightly sour grapes that the jackpot had been won the previous day, about 25 hours previously so it 'only' had $5,300 in it.. so I "only" took home a check for $2650 for losing a hand of poker.  Yeah, I'll take that.

Nice.

Playing at a $500 Buy-In No Limit table because I'm *crazy like that.* One very aggressive player who is bullying the table with $100+ bets always manages to raise it to $40 or something ($10 / $5 blinds) right when I get pocket pair. First two times, overcards come down on the board, I can't do anything, I fold. Third time, I get pocket 8's, and table bully bets $75, much higher than normal. I'm up to a respectable $800 (putting me at even for the day) and he's got over $2000. I call and see the flop.

Flop: 4d, 5h, 6d

He's ahead of me, and bets $125. I FIGURE he has pocket pair, a high one, but his history has been that he bets aggressively with A something. My spidey sense is tingling and I push in $300. He gets all anxious and asks how much of my stack is left. I tell him $430ish along with "Boy you don't back down huh?" as he stands up and starts playing with his chips.

He pushes me All-In, I say fuck it. Next card is a 6 of clubs, I think, and a King of Hearts. I flip over my pocket pair and he stares dumbfounded and flips his AQ suited. He was on a diamond flush draw.

Everyone at the table gave me grats, and I went home with much more than I expected.

I seem to have issues lately playing online. I've been trying to build my bankroll back up a bit and I will play within my means for a while... My means being either $10NL or $25NL. After losing buy-in after buy-in and running from $250ish down to $150ish I'll jump to either $100NL or $200NL with everything I have left and win it all back. Then I regain my senses and move back down to $10 or $25NL and start losing again.

I'm really very frustrated with the whole situation. I know part of it is that I just can't seem to take a 40cent raise seriously and then i get myself in trouble but it's also things that only seem to happen at NL$25 like people shoving all-in with 67o vs. my AA and hitting or moving all-in on complete bluffs and hitting runner runner 4 high flushes to beat my set. That then puts me on monkey tilt and I blow off 2-3 more buy-ins.

I think I'm going to have to give up again for a while. Either that or just play NL$100 until I bust my roll and call it a day.

I have had some success shortstacking NL200. I originally did it to work off a bonus (FPPs come faster at higher levels), but found out it works for me. It is a good way to limit the bankroll damage while you are still learning- I buy in for $40 each time. Best run I had, I cashed out just over $300. I am still a NL cash n00b, so the deeper the stacks, the less confident I feel.

It's very hard to intimidate at lower stakes, especially based on the players.  The minimum I'll play is $100 NL with $3 / $2 blinds, but I'm starting to get turned on to $300 NL with $5 / $3 blinds. It's triple the stack size for only ~2x the blinds.

There is no need to intimidate. If people are calling with too many hands (IE making it hard to bluff), then don't bluff. Just value bet the living shit out of your good hands, and they will come right along for the ride.

I gotta look up value betting then.

It's just betting so that you think they'll call and lose and hence dump you a few more chips.

Ah yeah, that.  :oh_i_see:

Low stakes poker is all about value betting since people just don't fold.

It's all about getting the best hand then maximizing your take. That may mean value betting or it may mean keeping people in to let them improve (but not enough to beat you) so that you can check-raise them later or whatever. Low stakes poker can be a bit boring in that clever plays don't work.

It's like playing a fighting game. If you are playing someone with decent skill you can fuck with their expectations. If they know how to block correctly you can make them block a few times then throw them. But if they are a random spazz you can't get fancy, all you can do is rely on very basic strategies that assume no skill or knowledge on their part.

So low-stakes is kind of boring in some ways, but it is good for learning discipline and sharpening your ability to squeeze the maximum amount from each hand. It's all about asking yourself "how do I play this to make the most money?"

Finally had a good night last night at NL$10. Up almost 4 buy-ins even after getting stacked when I had AA by a set of 10's.

My stats are near ridiculous though. I think during the about 1000 hand stretch I was about 12% VPIP and about 4% PFR.

I've managed to double up every night since Saturday except for Tuesday where I fought back to 70 up. It's been a really good fucking week.

Edit: Today ends my streak. I spent a LOOOONG time Saturday being down as much as $600 before soaring up to $900 up, going back down to even, then soaring back up to $900 up. Then I walk in on Sunday and lose $600 in 2 hands. I wasn't able to recover and lost all the money I made on Saturday, which is when I decided to stop for awhile. I think my policy is if I lose 3 Buy-Ins. I USED to say $300 but then I kept going on the $300 table. So if I do go back anytime soon I'll be on the $100 table.  I don't really want to erase the strong gains I made from Sat - Fri.

Oh, and the best part? Besides all the bad beats that led to losing Saturday's gains, the moment I lost it all, the next table over of $300 hit a super jackpot. (Straight Flush v Straight Flush)

So I spent some time reviewing a few videos. I found a couple that really helped. I switched over to 6-max $10NL instead of full ring. I also amped the aggression way up. I played about 2000 hands over the weekend and ran really well. Won over 9 Buy-Ins.

Stats over the weekend were closer to 30% VPIP and 18% PFR. It makes it sooo much easier to actually get payed off when people see you splashing around much more often. That was the downfall of my former nit style.

The video that really helped was one of Pokey's from 2+2.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Z6CII9BG

VPIP and aggression definitely need to go up in 6-max.

Lost a huge pot over the weekend to a questionable play by my opponent (surprise). I made a good read and got severely punished for it on the river. I will try to find the hand history and post it...ugly. Poker is cruel.

Found it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-PokerStars.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($216.65)
SB ($46)
BB ($40)
Hero ($195.70)
UTG+1 ($215.10)
MP1 ($212.60)
MP2 ($320.85)
CO ($80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/spade.gif), J(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif).  CO posts a blind of $2.   
Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, MP2 calls $6, 3 folds, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($21) 2(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif), 3(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif), 9(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $14, MP2 raises to $36, BB folds, Hero calls $22.

Turn: ($93) 3(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $60, Hero raises to $153.7, MP2 calls $93.70.

River: ($400.40) K(http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif) (2 players)

Final Pot: $400.40

Results in white below: 
Hero has Js Jh (two pair, jacks and threes). 
MP2 has Ad Kd (two pair, kings and threes). 
Outcome: MP2 wins $400.40. 

His play doesn't seem that out of line to me. If he thinks you have a fairly tight range in raising from UTG:

Board: 2d 3h 9d 3c
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    35.669%     33.08%    02.59%               786           61.50   { AdKd }
Hand 1:    64.331%     61.74%    02.59%              1467           61.50   { 66+, AQs+, KQs }



He's actually a favorite on the flop vs. what he thinks your range might be:
   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    55.615%     53.78%    01.83%             28752          980.00   { AdKd }
Hand 1:    44.385%     42.55%    01.83%             22748          980.00   { 66+, AQs+, KQs }


By the time you raise all-in the pot is $153 and he has to call off another $93.70. He's getting the necessary odds there isn't he?

Wow, just when I thought I knew something about poker.

I need a mentor. u_u;

On the flop he has two overcards, a flush draw and an outside shot at a straight, and figured that you probably didn't hit 2 pair or a set.

I probably would have played it pretty much the same way he did. The tricky thing about flush draws is that when people call the first card they do so thinking they have two chances to hit the flush, but then if they miss the first card they often fold now that their odds have decreased. But if you play that way then in reality you didn't have the odds you thought to begin with.

If you are going to chase a flush you really have to commit to seeing both cards come down.

Plus with two overcards he has a decent chance to be bailed out even if he misses. I probably would have played the same way except I would have checked the turn.

The pot is actually over 300 bucks when he is forced to make the decision, so he is getting 3+ to 1 on the call.

At that point he has 9 live cards that give him a flush and 6 more that pair with an ace or a king. That's a total of 15 cards out of 46 remaining. Which is 1/3.

Of course that assumes that a single pair of aces or kings wins, and that a flush card doesn't give you a full house. (If he has you on a pocket pair then one of the cards that gives him a flush also gives you a boat.) But then again you could be on something like AQ yourself.

In terms of pot odds it's pretty much even it seems. But again I'd argue that if you fold to a bet on the turn when you miss a flush draw you should have thought twice about playing the flop at all.

Seems like the only real chance to make him make a bad call is to push on the turn rather than check raise.


EDIT: And I disagree with the "if you call the flop, you need to call the turn" mentality on a flush draw. This is generally true is limit, but in no limit the flop bet could be offering you 5-1 odds on hitting the turn and 1-4 odds of hitting the river. It all depends upon pot size and bet size.

Yes it does depend, but my point was that many times people call the flop because they have a 40% chance of hitting a flush on one of the next two cards, then predictably bail out if they miss the first card. In that case the original reason to call was wrong, although they thought they had a 40% chance in reality they had a 22% chance.

If you are going to consistently fold if you miss the turn you have to assume from the start that your odds of hitting the flush are only 22%.

I just spewed in the worst possible way tonight.  Playing deep stacked 1/2 with 550 on the table, I have position on a very solid regular.  I don't want to get into the specifics, because it's just too embarassing.  But I made the worst semi-bluff shove on the turn in the history of poker.  Literally made no sense.  I timed down on it for 45 seconds and somehow convinced myself I have enough fold equity (I had close to 0) and of course got my money in drawing dead.  What the hell is wrong with me?  I then proceeded to get knocked out of both the tournaments I was in, one of which getting sucked out on AK vs AJ with a very solid stack.

I need a stiff drink.  Which I am now drinking. 

I managed to lose with a flopped set of Aces and a turned two pair (AK) within about 5 minutes last weekend. AAA filled up when the board paired queens, and of course villain had QQ. WTF.

The AK hand I flopped an A, got the rest of the money in, and hit a K on the turn. Unfortunately villain had QQ and flopped a set.

I am running so fucking cold...god it is frustrating. The 2nd hand is actually an anomaly- I get my money in ahead easily 70% of the time and have just been getting coolered to death.

I've just been doing the .10 buy-in 40-table Sit-and-Gos at PokerStars and having a reasonably good time doing it because I can experiment and learn things without feeling like there's a lot at risk. I did do a cheap ring game the other night and came out considerably ahead, but I still find it hard not to tilt like crazy when (as in one hand) I get beat like so:

Me: A9, suited clubs, on the button.
Him: AK, unsuited, first to bet.

He raises 3X BB before flop, folds around to me. I call.

Flop: A 9 9 rainbow.

Him: Bets half pot.
Me: Raise 2X his bet. Feeling fairly sure I'm up against AK, AQ or AJ.
Him: All-in.
Me: Call.

Turn and river? KK.

When you're on an extended streak where you're doing the right thing more or less and you still get continuously beat, that's pretty frustrating, but it's going to happen, I guess. I'd almost rather feel afterwards that I should have done something else, so I'd feel in control. I think the big thing for me is that I'm just realizing there's an upper ceiling for me in terms of how good I can get at the game, how confidently I can settle on a style of play and a consistent assessment of pot odds and implied pot odds.

Having a short memory helps immensely. Everyone gets bad beats.

Yeah. I think it's only when you feel like, probably incorrectly, that you're getting hit again and again and again for a long streak that way that it's hard to shake it off.

Bummer.

In the B&M I play at that would have been worth several thousand dollars.

Yep. If that happens in most cardrooms, it is a BBJ and I am loving life. First thing I thought  (after "FUCK", and "Naturally").

Here's a basic thing I'm trying to figure out. Classic situation: you either raised or called a modest raise before the flop with low-medium pockets. You hit your trips on the flop. There are two suited cards, though, and you don't have either of them. There's no danger of a straight. Maybe one of the suited cards is paint.

So the thing that concerns you really is someone betting to the flush, and you're in an environment (low-stakes ring game, arly rounds of small-stakes sit-and-go) where you just know there are a lot of people who cannot be pushed off a flush draw no matter what you do. So what do you do when you hit that set, if you're betting first? All-in or X% of the flop raise? You know  you're getting called no matter what, trips against the chance of the other person hitting their flush.

The way I see it is this:

You already have a hand. If someone's pulling for a flush then they have approximately a 1/3 chance of hitting it if they have 4 suited cards on the flop. Of course there may be other outs for them as well depending on the situation but the odds are with you and if they insist on playing it to the hilt everytime they will get stung more often than not. I would therefore make a strong bet to scare off the waverers and suck in the guys you know will chase the flush draw.

You don't want everyone to call because the last thing you want is for someone to hit a weird runner-runner straight or to outdraw you because he was calling with King-rag or whatever.

This is especially tough for me in a tournament context, with the risk-of-ruin involved especially in the early rounds. A lot of flush hunters in the early going are just going to go all-in, that's what they do.

Trips are such a big favorite.  It's even better if multiple people have flush draws.  Just get it in.  The more people you can get all in on the flop the more money you make in the long run.  If they will call anything, just shove and smile.

Let me pokerstove a random board for you.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  22,140  games     0.016 secs     1,383,750  games/sec

Board: 8h 7d 3d
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    62.276%     62.28%    00.00%             13788            0.00   { 88 }
Hand 1:    16.585%     15.73%    00.85%              3483          189.00   { T9o }
Hand 2:    00.854%     00.00%    00.85%                 0          189.00   { KdTd }
Hand 3:    20.285%     20.28%    00.00%              4491            0.00   { Ad5d }

If you get everyone all in here, assuming they all have 100BB, you win 300BB 62% of the time, which comes out to an average of about 190 BB.


Against 1 draw.

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    72.626%     72.63%    00.00%              2157            0.00   { 88 }
Hand 1:    27.374%     27.37%    00.00%               813            0.00   { Ad5d }

72% win rate, 100BB won, comes out to an average of 72BB.


Another  scenario:


Board: 8h 7d 3d
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    51.421%     51.42%    00.00%              4179            0.00   { 88 }
Hand 1:    44.038%     44.04%    00.00%              3579            0.00   { Td9d }
Hand 2:    04.540%     04.54%    00.00%               369            0.00   { 33 }

Even against the best draw ever (open ended straight flush draw), you're still a favorite.  And then don't forget the possibility of getting dead money in against a twopair or lower set.  Of course, this is sort of balances out when you have to put your money in with the lower set or two pair, but it just makes the point that sets are godly and huge favorites over basically everyone and eveything.  The full house redraw if they hit on the turn is a big part of this.

In fact, if you were playing in the first scenario, but made it to the turn with 100BB instead of the flop, and the turn were the Jd, you'd be pot comitted to call if all three players went all in assuming there was some money in the pot to begin with.

So over the long haul, I'm going to hold up enough that I should always call an all-in that I think is a flush hunter if I've made a set off of pockets, even if it's early in the tournament? That's what I've been doing so far. It's just kind of frustrating when it doesn't hold up, obviously, because that's the end of the tournament. But if I give that up, I figure I should be giving up AA too since every once in a while, somebody's going to hit something against it if you're both all-in before the flop.

Having a risk of ruin early in a tourney is frustrating, but when you have that kind of EV you can't fold.  What you want to avoid is coin-flips all-in early. That's why you need to let go even AKs or QQ against an all-in real early unless you are stack committed already. A flopped set is such a monster unless it is a mono-chrome board you can't be afraid to go to the felt. Otherwise you are just going to play way too tight until the later stages and by that time you will be too short to do anything.

Yeah. I usually give up AK against a preflop all-in from a stack that covers me early in a tourney unless it's one of those jokers who all-ins everything.

In a lot of online tournaments players will push on a lot of stuff to either double up quick or bust out and move to the next one. It can be very frustrating as if you play smart and conservative you'll soon be facing people with 4x or more your stack. If you think you have the best hand you have to risk it because a lot of people will push on Aces or better.

I try to get a quick profile on people early in a low buy-in tournament. If they're pushing on everything, and I have anything decent (99 or better pockets, A9 or higher, K10 or higher) I'll probably call the push. After all, I can move on too. If it's someone I've profiled as conservative after three or four hands, I'll be a lot pickier. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, of course. I find that the big opportunity actually comes when an early pusher has hit three or four lucky hands--a lot of them don't know how to make the transition to protecting that stack, and you can double up in succession a couple of times if they keep pushing on Ace-rag, K-rag, etc.

Yeah, the only way I'm ever folding a set in a situation like that is if the table I'm at is so horrible I can flat-out rob them of all their chips, without getting into any danger whatsoever.  I've never actually been in a situation where I felt I was better off folding there.  It would have to be pretty extreme.  Related to this, your willingness to take coinflips and marginal situations in tournaments should be based on the quality of the field.  If you were at a very tough tourney and felt you were outclassed, you should be happy to get it in as a coinflop.  If the players are morons, you will need 60% equity or more, because you can take their chips over time in easier ways.

Never give up on good hands early because of risk of ruin unless you totally outclass the competition.  Worrying about risk of ruin doesn't really make sense in tournaments unless you are sure better situations than the one you are currently in will come up in the future.

I disagree with this a bit. ROR in tournaments is their singular distinction in poker and the entire basis behind the Gap Concept.  It should actually inform all of your plays regardless of the level of competition. You obviously can't let it scare you to death, but it is crucial to your defensive decisions and should be used just as much as an offensive weapon as anything (it is what generates a large portion of fold equity).

I'm actually of the opposite mindset when I play in tournies. I would prefer to take my coin flips early on rather than later when I've already committed 2 or more hours and the blinds force you into it. I feel much better about busting out within 10-20 minutes of a tourney start than playing for 2-3 hours and not even making the money after either a couple beats or a blind-forced coin flip.

Also, if you're playing the lower buy-in tourneys (less than $10 buy-ins) you're QQ or AK is often going to be a huge favorite anyway. I would never lay either of those hands down preflop and will always get it all-in pre if I have the option.

Having an above average stack as the blinds start getting bigger is HUGE advantage in large tournies. Once the blinds are greater than about 30-40% of the starting stacks so many players start shoving weak holdings and you want to be in position to be able to call lots of smaller stacks with your premiums without risking ruin at that stage if you run into a couple 60/40 or worse losses in a row.

Then again I don't play a lot of tournies so my strategy may be flawed but the couple dozen I have played it feels like I've done fairly well. My best results to date are a 3rd place in 300-400 person rebuy tourney and I have hit top 20ish in a lot of those 1500+ tournies. Still haven't final tabled a huge field one though.

Really?  Perhaps I have a bad idea of what exactly risk of ruin is, or how it's applied in tournaments.  Certainly possible, the only poker literature I've read about tournaments was Harrington on Hold'em quite a while ago.  I sort of just play out of my ass these days with a decent idea of when to steal, and basing my hands around pot commitment.

I always thought being able to steal the blinds is the basis behind the gap concept.  Even if you are shortstacked or 3/4betting, you can shove all in with worse hands than you can call an all-in with simply because the other player has a chance to fold.  This is why being the first person to raise is such a big deal when stacks are small:  You take away the option for other people, and since you are pot commited, they can't 3-bet you liberally and are forced to play a better range than your range.

The only time I think about ROR in tournaments is when I am very short stacked and trying to get into the money, or very short stacked and trying to move up a place.  Usually however the other small stacks, or the middlish stacks are playing too tight in these stages, so I still feel it's better to attack them than try to fold and get into the money.  Just avoid flipping with big stacks (although flipping isn't even that bad considering the blinds and antes are a big percentage of your chips)

There's nothing wrong with this idea from both a time investment standpoint and an overall strategic standpoint as long as by flip you mean getting in on average at least slightly ahead.  Again, the only time I'd disagree is when the field is so bad it will be easy to double up without having to risk much.

The reason ROR is important is because people will be far more willing to call those bets if they can go into their pocket and try to get it back a few hands later. In tournament poker, there is no chance to do that so ROR motivates people to fold more than in cash games when faced with an aggressive raise.  The Gap Concept is explained better in Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players as I think Harrington sort of takes it as a given.

Oh, that's very true.  However, I actually always saw that as a flaw that people have...they are too scared to bust out of tournaments when in reality they are ignoring clear pot odds based decisions.  I may be misunderstanding some basic mathematical concepts relating to ROR/tournament play though.  I do realize that the less chips you have, the more those chips are worth relatively speaking.  But I never thought that was a main consideration.

Of course, online these days, people actually don't fold enough (only preflop), so things are sort of different.

Heh. I'm at the Bellagio right now and TJ Cloutier is at the craps table with his nose wide open which I take it isn't all that unusual.

I'm now in the Venetian poker room and Ray Romano is at the next table to me playing in a tourny.  It's a poker celebrity weekend!

Yeah, that is like seeing a fish in water.

A wild hand I found tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO3Fg2PEYWI&feature=related

That exact scenario you are talking about above happened me last year in a tournament at the first table, a very good textbook player at the table bet 4x I called and hit trip nines on the flop, he pushed me all in so obviously I called and he was on a flush draw with AJ of spades turn gave him the flush, river gave me a boat. It ended up being a pivotal moment as I went on to win the tournament of 100 people cashing out 600 euro.

fake edit : yay I found a poker thread

Live feed  (http://www.tvw.org/Media/LiveTv.cfm?bhcp=1)of arguments before the WA State Supreme Court about 2 gambling cases- one involving betcha.com, and the other the Lee Rousso Case involving the constitutionality of the state's ban on online poker (Class C felony- fucking CLOWNSHOES). Betcha.com doesn't seem to have a case in my very uneducated opinion, but the Rousso case might fare a bit better. I sure hope it does.

Link no longer live. Very interesting to listen to. To my biased ears, at least some of the justices were openly questioning the validity of the ban, and the state's case was pretty uncompelling. However- it did get through 2 levels of courts already, so my optimism is definitely curtailed.

Necro!

Good god. I have been watching the 3-handed final table of the WSOP main event for 8 hours. This is an epic grind going on here.  I don't think I can make it much longer as its 3:30 in the morning.

I had to give up just after midnight both days....was exhausted. I am glad I didn't wait it out- 3:00 AM would have made me even crankier than I am already. Were there any big swings, or did Merson just grind them down? Last I saw he lost that huge pot with KK and then ground up to barely take the chip lead again.

I will give those kids props- all of them were damned good players. A couple of donkeys at the final table proper, but the last 5 for sure were all top players. Hopefully after the election we can get some goddamned federal legislation passed so daddy can supplement his income again.

He played pretty conservatively while the two others battled back and forth. The youngster who was the short stack the entire time doubled up off of Sylvia and was the CHIP LEADER all of a sudden after about 11 hours.  He then doubled Sylvia back and then faded pretty fast. Heads-up was pretty short and the final hand was pretty weird.