War

[Goumindong]

Uhh, actually the system heavily favors attacking, not defending.

This does seem to be reasonably true. SBU's have enough HP that an attacker can reasonably defend each one separately so long as they're online. And they enter reinforced once you KO stations/upgrade structures.

Such an attacking force only has to online the SBU's for 3 hours and then siege.

After which its a single planned fight(or two) which is much easier than the multiple planned fights of previous.

Edit: and its now far too expensive to actually use the old logistical/anti-logistical systems such as wide jump bridge arrays and cyno-jammers so those advantages are gone or greatly reduced as well.

[Numtini]

We had 130 in fleet today.

Also,  Molle is invading NC starting Thursday.

For reals? Should I get my Hurricane in and burn some comp time?

[Pezzle]

It goes beyond just that Goum.  Sov may be cheap but making it useful and more worth holding is not.  Add to that your space is now worth less (at least for most people).  Your expensive infrastructure is useless in defense, your defensive timers can be running at the same time.  You cannot entrench and put up more towers to hold your space.  The supercap changes also have a rather dramatic effect on fights.  Rolling death machines existing in such large numbers that your structures will not last long enough for you to react.  Another failure by CCP.


Oh, listening to the Molle ts thing is sad.  The objective is to crash as many nodes as possible.  Why bother playing a game not to play?

[slog]

Uhh, actually the system heavily favors attacking, not defending.

The defender only has to win 1 day out of 4.  The attacker has to win all 4.

[Pezzle]

Not exactly true.  If the defender has multiple timers going they will need to win multiple fights.  That means either defending the structure or taking out the attackers SBU's.  Only eliminating the SBU majority really saves them.  

You can stack 1000 defenders on your structure and still only stall out the attack.  You cannot tank your structures or keep them going with rep cycles vs the kind of damage they can be hit with in very short order.  If you decide to hit the SBU's and try to win that way you will need to bring enough damage to break the SBU majority before the enemy can hit your structure into the next reinforce cycle.  Once the cycle starts the SBU's go invulnerable again.

Edit:  Also, TCU and SBU have the same hit points.  Interestingly enough SBU's have resists listed while TCU do not.  Granted it is only 50% but it beats 0%.  (maybe that is an error, I do not know).

[Endie]

I am delighted by Molle's Big Announcement, and not just because of my serious doubts as to its practicality.  The big war kicks off next weekend.  Lent finishes next weekend (I gave up playing computer games for Lent).  And I have next Monday off.

Also because I love Eve when big wars happen.

[Goumindong]

Uhh, actually the system heavily favors attacking, not defending.

The defender only has to win 1 day out of 4.  The attacker has to win all 4.

SBU's go into reinforced when the station and TCU are in reinforced.

So after the 3 hour setup time which attackers start they can immediately siege the station and TCU. Once those are reinforced the SBU's are immune to damage until the station and TCU come out of reinforced.

Station/TCU come out of reinforced after their timers end. This gives everyone a chance to make a play for the station/TCU/SBU.

SBU's have enough HP that the attacker can afford to attack defenders going after them and defenders cannot afford to split up. TCU/Station can then be put into reinforced a second time. This makes the SBU's invulnerable again. Such, defenders have to knock out SBU majority before the enemy puts the structures back into reinforced or destroys the defending fleet.

Cue the next fight for the system after reinforcement ends.

If the defenders have enough people that they can destroy SBU's with the enemy fleet on grid then it can be "easy" to defend(supposing you can actually make it to the second SBU after you kill the first one). But in doing so you're going to sacrifice your fleet since you have to focus fire on the SBU and they get to tear you up/bubble you/whatever.

The only real advantage that the defenders have is that the attackers have to put up another TCU and anyone can do that/stop it.

[Sir T]

Oh, listening to the Molle ts thing is sad.  The objective is to crash as many nodes as possible.  Why bother playing a game not to play?

Uh hate to tell you but that's been his MO for years. Hes never won any other way. He doesn't care about playing a game

Interesting discussion on the merits of the new sov system. I have to admit I was surprised by what Pezzle said, but its basically true.

Goum, its not the TCU that is attacked. Its the Infrastructure Hub. Once the station is captured and the I HUB gone, in theory then the TCU becomes vulnerable. Of course there is an exploit that once the station fell the whole system is vulnerable and they can go straight for the TCU. Not sure if its been fixed but it probably hasn't and you will see a lot more of that shit.

[Goumindong]

Oh, listening to the Molle ts thing is sad.  The objective is to crash as many nodes as possible.  Why bother playing a game not to play?

Uh hate to tell you but that's been his MO for years. Hes never won any other way. He doesn't care about playing a game

Interesting discussion on the merits of the new sov system. I have to admit I was surprised by what Pezzle said, but its basically true.

Goum, its not the TCU that is attacked. Its the Infrastructure Hub. Once the station is captured and the I HUB gone, in theory then the TCU becomes vulnerable. Of course there is an exploit that once the station fell the whole system is vulnerable and they can go straight for the TCU. Not sure if its been fixed but it probably hasn't and you will see a lot more of that shit.

My bad, but it really doesn't change much. The SBUs are still reinforced when the i-hub(if the have one) and station are reinforced.

So:

Setup: 4 hours. Attacker initiates and so likely has number adv
Siege: Immediately after setup. Attacker likely has number adv. SBU's invulnerable until reinforced is over
---
Out of Reinforced: Siege. Timed. No side has numbers advantage. Attackers have 2 objects to reinforce, defenders have unknown, likely 2-3 to destroy.  Assume attackers win and reinforce. SBU's invulnerable again
---
Final Siege: Same as before except instead of SBU's becoming invuln at end, TCU becomes vulnerable
TCU destroyed: System neutral. Place new TCU, defend new TCU

Its only really 2 fights and the defenders don't really have an advantage until the system is neutral... at which point their entire infrastructure advantage in the system is gone... and all they can do is keep it neutral. Much easier than the prior system of trying to take down the jammer and then running through multiple POS.

I am still of the opinion that the problem with SOV war was not POS. It was that there were so damn many of them, and cleaning them up and setting them up was so damned tedious. ~4 pos to take a system with new mechanics to deal with putting them up and taking them down would have made the system a lot better.

[Pezzle]

I will go further!  

The reason we have not seen territory conflict in much of 0.0 is actually because of these increased risks!  Alliances are concerned with the safety of their holdings and they figured out early enough that the game shifted from defense to offense.  CCP wanted an all offense group to be vulnerable to a counter attack so they stripped away most of the defensive advantages with cost or removal.  Now Alliances cannot easily defend their space while attacking someone else.  In response to the weak way this was implemented, Alliances took the next best option.  They blue up or make non invasion agreements.  Now their shipyards and income remain safe, eliminating the need for much of the local defense.  The trade off is of course no invading anyone local.  It does enable what the current aggressors want though, a long distance war.  The seas of blue out there right now would make ASCN envious.  Until someone in the south breaks a deal their territory is safe.  The first group to try that will likely get hammered, and they all know it (though it will happen).

Dominion did not remedy the situation, it changed the flavor.  If anything, with the supercap changes and sov nerfs (yes they are nerfs) 0.0 is more terrible than before.  Most of the key elements to 0.0 life were ignored or made more difficult.  The few good things they put in do not work as well as they should or are pinned to future promises that will no doubt remain unfulfilled.  

As to the north/south thing.  Have fun with that mess.  Any pools on how long before Molle loses a Titan?

[MahrinSkel]

Which is pretty much what I predicted.  If your only effective defense is your fleet, you keep it close to home, and you take as many potential enemies off the board with NAP's as possible.  Tilting the playing field in favor of the offense actually means *less* aggression.

--Dave

[ajax34i]

So, you guys are basically saying we've entered a Cold War era, and "the only winning move is to not play"?

Well, it's cool, and I guess we know how the Cold War ends; with the costs of holding space and the nerfs to moon goo, I guess it's only a matter of time before an economic collapse somewhere, North or South.

CCP, they think they're good at "crowd control", but in reality they just mimic history?  Maybe they can publish a paper on how a simulated economy affected a population/playerbase and its virtual politics.

[Endie]

No, the slightly contrarian piece of evidence amidst all this chin-stroking is that there have been constant wars since Dominion, and we're about to launch into the biggest one of all.

[tgr]

Have the fighting so far really been large enough to be called "wars"? The 3 or 4 I've seen so far that has involved invasions has usually ended in a puff of smoke and evaporating defenders. Hell, I'm sitting here and wondering just how much the NC is going to put up a fight.

I'm hoping we'll fight tooth and nail, because I've never really been in a proper war before. 49- under goons isn't really a part of a proper eve war, since it was 2 weeks of fighting over 1 system, after which we just went away.

[Pezzle]

There has been constant fighting, sure, but look at the map.  Goons and company collapsed on their own.  Some musical chairs in Esoteria (same power block).  Whatever happened in the north with WI (though the north seems unscathed) and the entire blue south attacks Providence.  Sure the map is different now as people shuffled about slightly but the big players in the south did not take any risks.  I submit that the war about to happen would have happened anyway.  The 'great wars' have a cycle to them.

Maybe I have missed a couple of conflicts but the point remains.  Very little has changed or been under threat of change through violence.  There is no struggle among the vast majority of 0.0 for space.  In order to facilitate the next great war the entire north and entire south are blue.  The handful of exceptions are either far enough away to inhibit an attack or are so small they cannot pose a threat.

[Goumindong]

No, the slightly contrarian piece of evidence amidst all this chin-stroking is that there have been constant wars since Dominion, and we're about to launch into the biggest one of all.

Has there been more or less war since the change is the real question. Saying "but people are still fighting" doesn't get the whole picture, you need to know what they're fighting over and what they're fighting. If they're not doing sov fighting then it kinda proves the point. I don't know the answer to this question, i haven't been paying attention, just laying out how the system can make changes based on peoples behavior.

With that being said the total effect on fights from making attacking easier is definitely uncertain. On one hand it makes people want to turtle, on the other hand it makes attacking easier.

I would tend to think this would reduce fights for sov considering at the same time space has become less valuable(dsypro nerf) and there are less differences in value across regions (The Provi assault was more an aberration than a rule) which means less value to attacking.

But at the end of the day, you cannot stop fights that occur for grudges and if these aren't constant over each timeframe then there may be an issue.

[Meester]

(I gave up playing computer games for Lent).  And I have next Monday off.

Christian baiting time! If you worshipped Satan instead you wouldn't have to give up!

I wonder what the political situation will be if the NC is annihilated. Isk farming russians control most of 0.0 and the technium moons? Is it actually a covert grab of technium moons by IT under the pretence of NC annihilation? Post your conspiracies here 

[Pezzle]

There is something covert about it?

[Sir T]

Operation max Damage was talked up my Mollie as a huge war with no pos warfare... and all they did was Pos warfare and bee-lining straight for moons. If he going by his MO he will leave his goals vauge enough that he can claim victory no matter what happens.

My prediction.. things go well till CCP fixes lag (again) and/or supercaps (again) then his forces get unutterably murdered (again) and then everyone will be blamed bar him (again)

[slog]

Uhh, actually the system heavily favors attacking, not defending.

The defender only has to win 1 day out of 4.  The attacker has to win all 4.

SBU's go into reinforced when the station and TCU are in reinforced.

So after the 3 hour setup time which attackers start they can immediately siege the station and TCU. Once those are reinforced the SBU's are immune to damage until the station and TCU come out of reinforced.

Station/TCU come out of reinforced after their timers end. This gives everyone a chance to make a play for the station/TCU/SBU.

SBU's have enough HP that the attacker can afford to attack defenders going after them and defenders cannot afford to split up. TCU/Station can then be put into reinforced a second time. This makes the SBU's invulnerable again. Such, defenders have to knock out SBU majority before the enemy puts the structures back into reinforced or destroys the defending fleet.

Cue the next fight for the system after reinforcement ends.

If the defenders have enough people that they can destroy SBU's with the enemy fleet on grid then it can be "easy" to defend(supposing you can actually make it to the second SBU after you kill the first one). But in doing so you're going to sacrifice your fleet since you have to focus fire on the SBU and they get to tear you up/bubble you/whatever.

The only real advantage that the defenders have is that the attackers have to put up another TCU and anyone can do that/stop it.

Don't for get that the Defenders can SBU themselves.

[Pezzle]

ANYONE can SBU.  You no longer need the majority in your alliance to threaten sov, it is the generic total.  SBUing yourself is inviting disaster.

[slog]

ANYONE can SBU.  You no longer need the majority in your alliance to threaten sov, it is the generic total.  SBUing yourself is inviting disaster.

We (goons) did this VERY successfully when we were defending.  It worked out great.

[Sir T]

Don't for get that the Defenders can SBU themselves.

That really is no advantage though. The Station and I hub can be shot by the enemy and go into reinforced regardless, and can be shot up regardless. The goons doing that was a specific situation. I don't think the SBUs can be offlined once the cycle has begun, but I could be wrong about that.

[Pezzle]

*shrug* Ok.  I am not familiar with how goons used self SBU to an advantage.  How would that prevent a hostile force from figuring out the timing and BBQing the vulnerable structure?  Is it the gamble that you can kill off your own SBU majority before the hostiles can reinforce your structure?  If that is the case it might be clever but it is not actually fleets fighting each other.

[slog]

*shrug* Ok.  I am not familiar with how goons used self SBU to an advantage.  How would that prevent a hostile force from figuring out the timing and BBQing the vulnerable structure?  Is it the gamble that you can kill off your own SBU majority before the hostiles can reinforce your structure?  If that is the case it might be clever but it is not actually fleets fighting each other.

I think it was more about setting the timing than anything else.    To be candid, I don't remember all the details.  Maybe someone else does?

[Vaiti]

iirc, Goons basically sieged 49- themselves and contested the Sov with MERCHI by setting up SBU's
Once they were online they could effectively offline whenever they wanted to throw the i-hub into reinforced or invul, I can't remember the exact details there. Basically it was cockblocking by Goons. Attackers couldn't online their own SBU's because Goons had them up. Attackers could attack the i-hub but at any point Goons could switch the SBU's off and stop that in it's tracks.
Basically did what the attackers wanted to do by setting up SBU's, but with the added bonus of being able to just shut them off instead of having to kill them.

[IainC]

As I recall the idea was that you offlined your SBU just before the station went vulnerable and then that would push the battle along by at least another 8 hours while the other side shot your SBU then anchored and onlined another one in its place. Bearing in mind that there are three chances for the defender to reset the entire process before they lose a station system, it's very hard to take a system against anyone remotely close to your power level, pretty much all the sov changes since Dominions have come from space that wasn't defended at all (SoT, PL, Goons) or hugely asymmetric fights (-A- vs shitty CVA renters). There has been continual fighting since the expansion but all the sov gains have either been gifted or utterly predictable.

[Pezzle]

Have they changed it so you cannot offline SBU's yet?

[slog]

Have they changed it so you cannot offline SBU's yet?

Why would they? 

[Endie]

Himo you seem to be labouring under the delusion that your arch-enemy Molle is plotting all this stuff.  Listen to the speech: Molle didn't even know where his forces were going first.  He genuinely had no clue, and had to go away during his speech and have what was happening explained to him.

[Numtini]

I listened to about five minutes and honestly, he sounds like one of the "confused seniors" that we sometimes get who show up at town hall and can't remember why they're here. Is he always like that?

[Sir T]

Yeah, hes pretty much always like that.

Yeah I'll admit that I haven't listened to the speech at all. But I imagine its the usual shit, be all mysterious to cover up your cluelessness, keep you goals so vague you could fulfill them by not even doing anything. Which is easily explained by his not having a clue. And who says he is my arch-enemy? 

[slog]

Yeah, hes pretty much always like that.

Yeah I'll admit that I haven't listened to the speech at all. But I imagine its the usual shit, be all mysterious to cover up your cluelessness, keep you goals so vague you could fulfill them by not even doing anything. Which is easily explained by his not having a clue. And who says he is my arch-enemy? 

Ronald Reagan was a great leader and he wore Depends.

[Sir T]

Well we can all agree that Mollie wears depends 

[Endie]

(I gave up playing computer games for Lent).  And I have next Monday off.

Christian baiting time! If you worshipped Satan instead you wouldn't have to give up!

That's very true.  But since I stopped playing computer games I've read a huge list of great and important books I never got round to before, I've put in raised beds in my garden, been to the gym three times a week, demolished an outbulding to make way for a new apartment on my land, been promoted at work and been made a Goon diplomat (turns out you don't need to log in at all for that).  So I'm pretty happy with the outcome.

I honestly think it's as much the sleep patterns as the spare time.