War

[Murgos]

Technically, TRI is also fighting in their own area as well.

Freed, shackles, POS warfare, etc...

[Endie]

Guys, seriously? MM driving out TRI? KIA being trustworthy doesn't change the problem that they've absorbed a large number of corps who should not be in 0.0, and the alliance itself wouldn't be holding space if it wasn't for the GS pet status.

And TRI outblobbing KIA, the small soft target? TRI has 600 pilots. KIA is fighting in their own arena, has the benefit of jump bridges and 1000 pilots. How are the odds stacked in TRI's favor?

The NC scared Tri off in two weeks after they came back.

And OK, I'm going to say something that sounds like a troll here, but really isn't meant as a troll at all, just a statement that's pertinent.

AAA have a long history of seeing blue or aligned powers nearby who appear to be weak, and of resetting them for an easy win.  IAC is the most famous, but KoS is another, and they famously (mmm the delicious Kugutsumen chat porn) thought the same of Goons.  Those are just the obvious ones that leap into mind.

Goons have a long history of sticking by alliances who helped them out in the past, and who have not fucked them over.  When everyone in ROL, AAA, th IRC/ED and elsewhere were saying "Red Alliance are not who you remember them being.. all the good bits left... let them die" Goons remembered that we owe them our existence and went to help.  Same reason when we went to help allies against Smashkill/Atlas in mid 2008.  And there was a substantial amount of argument and angst over remaining neutral when AAA went for IAC.

I'm not saying that there are no counter-examples on either side.  But the patterns are there.  And that's why we're not about to reset or abandon an ally as you suggest simply because lol Tri VIII turn up there for ganks.

Also, KIA are not our pets.  They and ZAF took their space, and although I believe MM were there for a while Goons only really had to turn up a couple of times, and the only station we took was when we (the F13 Goons) took TPAR and held it for a couple of weeks.  Since I was the person who ran that I'm pretty aware of the Period Basis campaign: I lived there for a month, and there were no other goons (none) within 15 jumps.  They do not pay us anything for rent, whether in ISK or in real-world cash (unlike certain Feythabolis pets*), and they helped plenty when we took Delve.  Being a smaller part of a power-bloc than a dominant partner does not make someone a pet.  I happen to like a version of Eve where alliances of varying power and ability all exist in 0.0, even if the current sov mechanics force them to align with someone.

---

*Of course, when the person paying the cash has openly stated in a public forum that he has considered having in-game opponents murdered, you may think that the pet boot is on the other foot.  But hey, maybe you like your ally for that approach to internet spaceship games, Setar?

[rand]

AAA have a long history of seeing blue or aligned powers nearby who appear to be weak, and of resetting them for an easy win.  IAC is the most famous, but KoS is another, and they famously (mmm the delicious Kugutsumen chat porn) thought the same of Goons. 

Got a link to the chat porn?

[Endie]

AAA have a long history of seeing blue or aligned powers nearby who appear to be weak, and of resetting them for an easy win.  IAC is the most famous, but KoS is another, and they famously (mmm the delicious Kugutsumen chat porn) thought the same of Goons. 

Got a link to the chat porn?

You're a goon: most of it was reposted in the (old) War Room at various times during the war.  And there are complete dumps of several AAA corp forums in Kugutsumen if you prefer unfiltered versions.

Also, there's a new AAA forum porn thread in the new War Room which (for those unlucky enough to be one of those few people in the world of Eve without Goonfleet forum access) is all about how their numbers suck and why can't they attack Sylph for a guaranteed win?  Sylph.  Well, that will be a challenge.  Attack the Catch-based Providence charity case who have lost a third of their members recently.

[setar]

Oh, I agree with the general summary, Endie -- although it could be argued that Goon support in quite a few cases means posting on CAOD rather than getting into a ship and actually helping said allies. But none of this addresses the claims that MM alone removed TRI from the North, or that KIA is being outblobbed.. which is what I was contesting.

Having said that I am happy that nobody is helping KIA so far. TRI has no intention to claim space, so this is a nice free-for-all PVP opportunity that for once does not end in half of the EVE map getting dragged into a conflict. Targets like that are difficult to find these days.

[setar]

And whoops:

A director in the Mostly Harmless corporation SOLJA just performed a decent-sized corp theft of emptying the wallet, grabbing all corp hangar ships, off-lining a few convenient pos's, and then put the coup-de-grac of removing the corporation from the alliance.

A Mini-Haargoth. Although I doubt it will have consequencies in this case as they are not under siege, and it's just a corp.

[Endie]

Oh, I agree with the general summary, Endie -- although it could be argued that Goon support in quite a few cases means posting on CAOD rather than getting into a ship and actually helping said allies. But none of this addresses the claims that MM alone removed TRI from the North, or that KIA is being outblobbed.. which is what I was contesting.

Having said that I am happy that nobody is helping KIA so far. TRI has no intention to claim space, so this is a nice free-for-all PVP opportunity that for once does not end in half of the EVE map getting dragged into a conflict. Targets like that are difficult to find these days.

I didn't see the idea that MM alone removed Tri from the north, sorry.  I'd characterise it as them returning (with some Razor) and Tri leaving, but it was the addition of first-rate alliances that had that effect, not their sole presence, unsupported.

As regards KIA, they're in much the same situation someone like Cow is, now: it would be daft to pretend that if Cow brought their capfleet then only GF Foreign Legion and RA would turn up to hot drop them.  If they could replace the forty they lost then they might well have bigger numbers in-theatre, but they know that we'd temp-blue PL and that Death would tag along and that (given warning) they might even face some northern powers if they deployed a full dreadfleet to attack a tower "just" the RSF elements reinforced.  Right or wrong, it is a pretty common opinion that if Tri get a good timer on a KIA R64 and KIA bring out their caps then not only will Tri's much larger capfleet engage but some variety of Stain/AAA/ROL etc.

Nothing wrong with that at all.  My whole point is that everyone does it on every side, now.  But Tri are commonly felt to be more or less Atlas/AAA/ROL-aligned due to their recent entanglements, and that means that KIA have to react accordingly.

I say again: I like that KIA has some less experienced or able corps in them  0.0 is too elitist, and most Goons would agree with that.  Once, we were useless and needed aid in 0.0, too, and KIA were one of those who helped.  If they ask for help they'll get it.  Right now they feel they're still dealing with things, so we're not really needed yet.

[rand]

And TRI outblobbing KIA, the small soft target? TRI has 600 pilots. KIA is fighting in their own arena, has the benefit of jump bridges and 1000 pilots. How are the odds stacked in TRI's favor?

More pilot activity in their prime, i know for sure tri gangs regularly outnumber goon or rebellion gangs in delve. The only exception was once in 319 where numbers were around even with a goon fleet and a rebellion fleet were in system, but they refused to engage till rebellion left. At which point they outblobbed us pretty heavily, so we left while they were crowing about being able to undock in local.

[Slayerik]

Ok, for the record I don't wanna hear anyone talk shit about TRI being blobbers. I fought as TRI for about 6 months to a year on and off, and I could count on one hand the number of fights I was involved in that we actually had a heavy number advantage. Maybe shit was different in MK II but we'd fight outnumbered.

Not sure why I care anymore..... :)

[rand]

Ok, for the record I don't wanna hear anyone talk shit about TRI being blobbers. I fought as TRI for about 6 months to a year on and off, and I could count on one hand the number of fights I was involved in that we actually had a heavy number advantage. Maybe shit was different in MK II but we'd fight outnumbered.

Not sure why I care anymore..... :)

They've had a pretty solid numbers advantage in delve for the last week, most goon pvpers are in scalding pass or in wicked creek with blops. Today for instance one of our FCs had a gang ready but couldn't engage and was reduced to picking off stragglers because they were heavily outnumbered by an 80-100 man tri gang that was roaming at will (i think there was a 50 man leguinea romania gang running around simultaneously as well). Even when numbers are somewhat even, most of the goons around in delve are low sp dudes in t1 ships up against their LR hac or RR gangs, so not much can be done. I hope at some point scavok or someone calls a break from the gffl to jump clone back for a day for a decent even fight

[Endie]

If GFFL come back then Tri will just refuse to come out.  There were even numbers last night in 319 but Tri refused to emerge.  When Rebellion left and numbers shifted back to Tri they emerged.  They're in Delve because they know our PvPers are all elsewhere.  We're still elsewhere because we know it's only Tri.

And that's fine by me: let them pick off and gank the worthless ratters, the neckbearded pubby-haters and those too stupid to use a jumpbridge to get round the 60-man hac bubblecamps. vOv

[Sir T]

I had a lot of respect for old tri, fought them on several occasions. This Tri is a bunch of crappy blobblers that litterally will run from anything like a serious fight. Every single time MM went up from The Delve theater Tri left the north till they went back to Delve, then they got all brave again. They left the second NC deployed back to the north. I don't think they lasted a week in stain.

Sorry Slayer, but this Tri is not yours. If we went back to Delve Tri would vanish like smoke, and everyone knows it.

[setar]

All of that is besides the original point that stated that TRI outblobbed KIA. Currently it is KIA who are vanishing in a puff of smoke, and whether that is because they are worried of -A-/ROL involvement or not is exactly the same scenario for TRI. If the mega-alliances/NAP-fests (and that includes -A-/ROL/Atlas/etc) turn up in an arena the nature of the game changes, unfortunately.

But crying for allies because you lose a few RR BS gangs?

Maybe I'm just getting bitter because the whole propaganda of going back to small alliance warfare after BOB was gone turned out to be just that, propaganda.

[Sir T]

No, you made a silly claim that since TRIs total membership is smaller than KIA then KIA must outblob TRI. Bullshit. We both know that means jack. Tri could operate gangs on times Kia is weak, Kia could simply not have as high participation as Tri. Or TRI simply could only engage when Kia has a smaller fleet than theirs out so the blob them. And Tri could be working with Legio Romania, which they are.

The real point of this silly discussion is yet another attempt at the "Goons are leaving their friends to rot while they run away from scary enemies to fight easy blobby battles somewhere else" meme -A- have been singing for months. I guess they had to try a new angle now that the "Goons hate Russians" theme looks even more ridiculous than when they started singing it.

And yes, KIA is an old Mercenary power that outlasted the Mercenary Coalition. So they made the right choices and were in the end better able to survive. Accept it, now matter how much that sticks in your craw

If KIA needs help they will get it. Until then, they will do fine like they always have.

[setar]

KIA *was* a mercenary group. They stopped being one long ago, probably even before MC, Veto and others gave up on that aspect of the game. As for silly claims, I'll leave that area of expertise to you as  I actually find the GS replies to KIA's request for help hilarious, honest and to the point -- there is no territorial threat and no need to come to anyone's rescue.

However, in contrast to that honest assessment on your forums the last two pages here seem to be another case of GS hero worship, claiming that whoever is on their side are best brosefs, excellent at what they do and everyone else is a eBaying, ISK-selling cheater with no skills. My enjoyment of the game doesn't necessarily require such black-and-white categories, but I do realize it motivates others.

[setar]

And as a PS: Maybe there *is* a good reason to stick to factional warfare and low sec:

http://www.ituroncavalry.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=56930

*Six* moms?

[Trebes]

However, in contrast to that honest assessment on your forums the last two pages here seem to be another case of GS hero worship, claiming that whoever is on their side are best brosefs, excellent at what they do and everyone else is a eBaying, ISK-selling cheater with no skills. My enjoyment of the game doesn't necessarily require such black-and-white categories, but I do realize it motivates others.

What do you think about the AAA-ROL war effort being funded with a hundred grand in timecards, by the way?

I don't play this game so this isn't some kind of burn, I'm honestly curious how you feel about it since from my perspective it is pretty bizarre and didn't believe it the first time I heard the claim. I guess on the one hand you have "oh boy endless free ships to PvP in" and on the other there's "this guy is literally buying his way to success" which vaguely offends me.

[Jayce]

Except he didn't really succeed.

Well, he got Tenerifis and Detorid, but that wasn't because of the money.  It was because of Haargoth.

[Sir T]

. As for silly claims, I'll leave that area of expertise to you as  I actually find the GS replies to KIA's request for help hilarious, honest and to the point -- there is no territorial threat and no need to come to anyone's rescue.

Really. What request? What GS replies? What posts? Because the last time I looked I didn't see any. Please, share with the masses.

Thanks for only focusing on one line in my reply btw.  

[Comstar]

In actual war news, RA+GFFL attacked the last -V- station system jammer and put the POS's into reinforced. At one point an AAA fleet was next door, but left. ROL was also nearby, but then left to go camp the pipe from JLO (which with the jammer down didn't matter much because we could now Titan bridge in). ATLAS had a camp blocking the WNM-JLO pipe for some pretty useless reason.


As for blobbing/not blobbing- It makes sense for me that Tri is avoiding engagements when outnumbered because what kind of logistics could they have if they lose their fleet? Ratting and mission running in NPC Delve is not like running level 4's in empire. I have little respect from Tri myself as compared to other space holding alliances, but they are running a viable strategy to have fun in the game.

Even if they *did* attack KIA systems, there's no way they could keep anything beyond a week with the complete lack of available supply lines to empire from Period Basis (WTG CCP for designing the space that way). Tri is only in Delve to have fun, not take systems or stations.

Though I do have a question for those currently in Delve: if Tri is basing out of 319, how are they getting down to KIA space? It's like 20 jumps down there, and would seem to be easy to camp that one long pipe they have to go through to attack KIA.

[setar]

Wait. I addressed 'KIA is successful as mercs' (one line). I addressed 'another attempt to insinuate that GS leaves their allies to rot' (two lines) and the 'KIA does not need help' part (three lines). That leaves line four, 'just because someone attacks an entity twice it's size is not going to stop the blobbing complaints' .. and, uh, *that* really did not need to be addressed.

But given that you snipped exactly one part of my post as a quote I guess I'm being trolled, anyway.

As for time cards and funding.. we've been over this when the original accusations came up. Me, no problem with it. Probably true for GS as well given the time card drives that funded operations now and then (even in a much more limited fashion)... though it's not the way I'd want to spend my money.

Finally, quotes. Could post from our version, but given that there's probably some hidden pointer in there to help identify spies, there, take the German forum (not as complete as other versions, but oh well): KIA, GS

[Endie]

As far as I am aware, kia have asked for help once, in a camp-tri-into-319 op which worked, and for which goons and rebellion turned out.

As regards the idea that there is LV-style black propaganda about ROL being thrown about, the fact is that their alliance head said he spent 50 grand on black-market 'ebay' style isk, then after that got banned he spent a second 50 grand on timecards (very visible on the forums); that does not include cash paid to Evil Thug, and allegedly paid to the head of stain; nor does it count the cash offered to daroh, to uaxdeath, nor to unl's head.  He also stated that he had seriously considered having in-game opponents killed in real life. Sorry if I seem a little anti the guy but I'm not sure I want to be his best space buddy.

As regards the lack of small-gang pvp and the continuing aligned power blocs: we have always tried to maintain a bloc large enough to contend with any hostile alliances that pose an existential threat. AAA/stain/rol/Atlas/v/cow/minor threat/sys-k/coven/legio-r/byrn/dice/tri etc constitute tens of thousands of pilots, most of whom are formally allied with the rest (eg byrn and stain are not blue but will become so whenever necessary for anti-goon/pl blocs). They are paranoid about us, and we about them. Should we have le them finish off RA? Should we have let them steamroll xDeathX? Of course not. Both sides are in massive alliances and that's eve. Goons are paranoid about aaa, who backstabbed them. AAA are paranoid about goons, because scavok trolled them (and because of a peculiarly russian mindset about western powers, invasion and betrayal) And the new sov update will almost certainly make that worse by making sov more fluid, and demanding even bigger allied blocs.

But it's all a big story, so I love it.

[Sir T]

Wait. I addressed 'KIA is successful as mercs' (one line).

Which I never said. I said that Kia was an old mercenary power that is still around, whereas the Mercenary Coalition is not

And yes, KIA is an old Mercenary power that outlasted the Mercenary Coalition. So they made the right choices and were in the end better able to survive. Accept it, now matter how much that sticks in your craw

See?

I addressed 'another attempt to insinuate that GS leaves their allies to rot' (two lines) and the 'KIA does not need help' part (three lines). That leaves line four, 'just because someone attacks an entity twice it's size is not going to stop the blobbing complaints' .. and, uh, *that* really did not need to be addressed.

Uh, no you didn't.

They stopped being one long ago, probably even before MC, Veto and others gave up on that aspect of the game. As for silly claims, I'll leave that area of expertise to you as  I actually find the GS replies to KIA's request for help hilarious, honest and to the point -- there is no territorial threat and no need to come to anyone's rescue.

However, in contrast to that honest assessment on your forums the last two pages here seem to be another case of GS hero worship, claiming that whoever is on their side are best brosefs, excellent at what they do and everyone else is a eBaying, ISK-selling cheater with no skills. My enjoyment of the game doesn't necessarily require such black-and-white categories, but I do realize it motivates others.

Please bold where you dealt with all that. I'll do back to reading about how NASA faked the moon landings or something equally relevant.  

Oh and just so you won't accuse me of only dealing with a part of your message lets deal with the attacking an entity twice its sise. Lets look at what an expert had to say on that...

And TRI outblobbing KIA, the small soft target? TRI has 600 pilots. KIA is fighting in their own arena, has the benefit of jump bridges and 1000 pilots

Setar disagrees with you on the numbers. 

[setar]

Oh-so-cute.

Which I never said. I said that Kia was an old mercenary power that is still around, whereas the Mercenary Coalition is not

They are around because they stopped trying to pretend to be Mercs. Which renders your comparison moot, which of course you know exactly.

I addressed 'another attempt to insinuate that GS leaves their allies to rot' (two lines) and the 'KIA does not need help' part (three lines). That leaves line four, 'just because someone attacks an entity twice it's size is not going to stop the blobbing complaints' .. and, uh, *that* really did not need to be addressed.

They stopped being one long ago, probably even before MC, Veto and others gave up on that aspect of the game. As for silly claims, I'll leave that area of expertise to you as  I actually find the GS replies to KIA's request for help hilarious, honest and to the point -- there is no territorial threat and no need to come to anyone's rescue.

See? I can even make it pink if you'd like me to. GS is not leaving KIA to rot as there is no threat whatsoever. Now, can I have that moon-landing-debrief?

Oh and just so you won't accuse me of only dealing with a part of your message lets deal with the attacking an entity twice its sise. Lets look at what an expert had to say on that...

Bwahaha. Okay, let's go from 'twice it's size' to 'larger by a factor of 1.7' if that makes you happy. Lovely argument indeed, which of course explains why KIA feels outblobbed. In their own territory. While their enemy doesn't have access to their master's logistics route.

Is there a /facepalm smiley in here somehwere...

[bhodi]

You're straying into Syndicate territory here.

[setar]

Also, any of the NC folks present here able to shed some light on this fight?

http://killboard.eve-sobr.com/?op=related&name=373011

Solar seems to have held up well given the numbers (particularly the drastic difference in BS), but that's a large chunk of anyone's capital fleet whereas the NC's losses are nicely distributed.

[Endie]

The comparison in numbers is kinda facile by both of you.  Tri has more skilled members, in terms of skill points and player experience.  That's a good thing, and its not "blobbing" to fight people less skilled than you: it's fun and if you come to 0.0 you should expect it.  Goonfleet are better at Eve and have more and older characters than Byrn, but nobody is saying that we shouldn't be bullying them into a 1:3 loss ratio.

But looking at member numbers, on the other hand, is not informative in judging size.  KIA is a space-holding entity, with all the alts that suggests.  It is also made up of more stable membership, which means less members joined very recently than the ever-oscillating Tri.  Corps - especially less experienced ones which have yet to learn about the security implications - very often leave inactive characters in their ranks to rot.  Even without Legio Romanianiananainaeu I would not like to have called in advance who had more PvPers between the two, and now it seems Tri have far more active, PvPing members.  Again, that's life.

Well, that sucks for KIA, but it's not a reason to drop everything in the east and rush back to babysit Period Basis.  KIA are not at risk of being destroyed, and if they were to fail from such a passing threat then they'd not really be a huge asset.  If they really need help they will get it, and so far Tri have been careful not to do anything that will provoke a strategic response from Goonfleet.  Like I said before, KIA have asked for help in one (offensive) operation, we turned up (with Rebellion), Tri and us had the same numbers, and they refused to emerge until Rebellion left and they had a substantial numbers advantage again.  That's what the NPC station thing is all about, and it's simply not worth anyone's time to for us to spend a month doing a 319 to them, easy as that would be.

And I repeat: better to have KIA as allies than someone who buys 100 grand of ISK, half of it illegally, buys off the head of AAA and (allegedly) others, only fails to buy off others because they have scruples, and openly talks about considering death threats to other players.

[Sir T]

The comparison in numbers is kinda facile by both of you.

Yup, it was stupid to even try spinning it, which was the point I'm driving at. But its just a variation on the same stupid "oh we are so outnumbered, and goonies are dont care about allies" spin thats been flung about for months now so hey.

In other news, Atlas just called off a major op to save - V - because they only had even numbers with 50 Sc0rtched Earth on the way. If they pussy out again tomorrow - V - lose the system and all their space, again. Comparisons with LV abandoning - V - 3 years ago are being made.

[Endie]

Atlas will call in everyone.  They surely have to save that system on their last chance.  I'm not concern trolling: for one thing, Bobby has thrown too many allies under the bus in order to avoid losing his irreplacable capfleet before now; for another, he doesn't need a mixture of GF, RA and xDeathx threatening his direct logistics route to empire and forcing him to rely on AAA and HED/Curse.  Finally, he knows as well as anyone how fragile the huge federation of corps is that he has assembled: he has a fine tightrope to walk between failing to fight and getting hammered a few times.  He needs to pick his fights, but he needs to get some decisive wins.  He must realise all this.

[setar]

Really? Bit out of the loop with Atlas politics, but I'd be surprised if there's any significant defense. These kinds of 'rallies' only tend to prolong the inevitable. Has there been a single incident where a last system was saved and the owning alliance eventually made a strong appearance again?

Besides, it would be yet another proof that we can't move past the mega-alliances.

[Comstar]

Has there been a single incident where a last system was saved and the owning alliance eventually made a strong appearance again?

RA, CJ- vs the original Southern Coalition, though they actually lost the station for a few days in the middle. Also I think they were down to 1 station before the Dariu-Lair Counter-Revolution.

Besides, it would be yet another proof that we can't move past the mega-alliances.

Sadly, you're right. Minor Threat is now apparently blue to Goonswarm (despite us taking their station in JLO) because you're either with one side or the other. However, I can't see ATLAS having a possibility of getting killed like -V- is, because who's going to want to live in Deteroid in their place? All the supply lines end up going via AAA/ROL otherwise, which is unsustainable.

With the current map, I don't believe changing sov rules will remove mega-alliances, because the logistics' means you can't NOT ally with the people on your supply line. ROL and the people who live in the deep south all have to be friendly with AAA whether they like it or not. Same with KIA and ZAF, you can't hold Period Basis without having friends in Querious and Delve. The North is the same, as is the Drone Regions. There are small, isolated groups on the boundaries (CVA, Kraftwerk, ED/IRC) but they are doomed if the bigger mega-alliances decide to kill them.

You can maybe run a POS via worm-holes, but not a constellation. Make it possible to be fully self-sustaining in 0.0, and the logistics issue goes away. Sadly, CCP shows no intention whatsoever to allow 0.0 players live without depending on the empire level 4 mission runners.

[Endie]

Really? Bit out of the loop with Atlas politics, but I'd be surprised if there's any significant defense. These kinds of 'rallies' only tend to prolong the inevitable. Has there been a single incident where a last system was saved and the owning alliance eventually made a strong appearance again?

Besides, it would be yet another proof that we can't move past the mega-alliances.

Well, I know (and surely so do you?) that Sc0rched Earth have a big, mandatory CTA on Bobby's orders aimed at helping V starting in 4-E at 1730.  Of course, they had that last night (as did Atlas), so that doesn't mean anything certain, but an alliance down to its last station system but sitting on the edge of the space of 15,000 allies and quasi-allies (who would go blue to kill the invaders and want them to stay in their space) is in a different position from one isolated and alone.

[Jayce]

Maybe this is a digression, but I don't see either what's wrong with mega-alliances or how we could ever conceivably get rid of them.  Any unsafe condition encourages people to band together for safety.  So either add safety to Eve (no one would like that) or deal with banding-together behavior.

I guess a third option would be to change human nature.

[setar]

It removes a large part of the game that is interesting. FIX and IAC had, for the longest time, this wonderful stable condition where there were almost daily fights but without any worries of a territorial invasion.. which might be the key phrase here. Now, even *when* you could have interesting fights between two entities a fair amount of bored larger alliances get involved pretty much right away (see the Solar Fleet kb link above for an example). Minor Threat were interesting because they always added this little bit of uncertainty to fights when they were in the area.. now it's yet another red-vs-blue entity.

But that's probably a topic for another thread. Haven't heard anything about a -V- rescue op, so.. that should be it, right?

[rand]

minor threat are blue with RA because they're splitting kraftwerk's moons, they aren't going to be going with us on joint ops and stuff.