War

[Kamen]

Except, I think the Goons are gonna fight MC anyway.  I'm an outsider with no clue, but I don't see peace happening in EVE, and once BOB disappears, I expect the remaining big players to then go at it.  So maybe nobody can claim the moral high ground, but there will be a war.

You might very well may be right, the Goons may indeed go after MC after BoB is gone.  That's a risk they're going to have to take.

The Goons going after MC anyway after BoB falls is a "might happen", where the outcome of the other three options are regarded as certainties.

[Endie]

We have a bunch of goons in ships in G-Q watching MC taking down BoB POSes and commentating on it in teamspeak.  So far, MC has taken down three Bob poses in a few minutes each and the Bob fleet scarpered in the face of their capfleet.  That said, the odd lagspike suggests that they are not that far away.

Of course, they might be trying to lessen the humiliation by taking down one of the Pandemic Legion POSes in NOL.  Given that they've been all "rawr rawr so angry" (we have chatporn from the Bob forums, of course) with a few old pilots coming back, them having to give up the first time they face a fight would be a huge moral blow.  Here's hoping they choose to fight for the next tower (comes out at 21:00) and one of the two gets hammered :)

I, however, am off to play Call of Cthulhu :)

[Comstar]

5-N is IAC controlled, and V2 POS's are in reinforced (might be IAC too). We had 300 pilots in V2, and 0 hostiles. TCF reinforced the POS before the goonfleet got a warp in.  IAC killed a Styx Roquel in 25S.

More goons are watching the BOB/MC boxing match than are in Catch. D-L has locked BoB out of their station and presumably joined Superfriends.  MC destroyed 3 POS's and the BoB battlefleet spent it's time escorting some freighters around. More goons in covert ops eating popcorn than BoB in system.

[Simond]

It all returns to nothing, it all comes
tumbling down, tumbling down,
tumbling down

[Kitsune]

It seems to me that if these BoB fellows have four titans at their disposal, it's a bit early to consider them down in a fight.  If they had too much territory to hold with their current force, and people are taking that territory, eventually they'll be whittled down to an amount of territory that they CAN hold with their force, and then people are going to be hard-pressed to take that from them.

At that point all they'd have to do is hold their ground and wait for the alliance against them to fracture.  Which is inevitable, because Serious Internet Business like online game alliances disintegrate into socially-retarded nerd pissing matches as sure as winter turns to spring.

They may be severely diminished, but unless their morale caves and the individuals bail on the corp, I think it unlikely that force of arms can break a group with that much firepower.

[Endie]

I agree with you, Kitsune, to the extent that Bob can still hold off for a long time, even indefinitely if they are prepared to stick to it: they have advantages of sovereignty that we didn't have in the detorid campaign, and that RA didn't have against LV when proportionately far more outnumbered than Bob, and we both survived.  And Bob have the ability to blob out a system to unplayability with supercaps and caps that we've never had.

Faced with a substantially smaller opponent, however (we had ships watching both fleets), but who had experience using their caps up front, Bob folded tonight, and ran for it despite all Molly's buildup of camp theatrics and defiant "sry, nope" posts.  And the question is how often they can run away before their coherence as an alliance fractures.  As has often been pointed out, most Bob members joined so they could always be on the easy-win side.  Many of their members (shinra, finfleet etc) are comedic, and a large proportion are made up of the skimmings of people we already defeated.  The question will be whether we want them to die more than they want to keep getting up at horrible times and skipping work to defend across ranges of timezones.

[Simond]

Minor, yet interesting, technical detail re: Titans/Motherships - they cannot be docked in stations. This means once all the POSes are gone, the supercap pilots will have to either move elsewhere or risk safespotting to log out.

[Fordel]

Most supercap pilots already safespot to logout is my understanding. Logging out at a PoS usually means logging back in to a dead PoS with a bunch of enemy caps and dictors ready and waiting.

[Kamen]

I agree with you, Kitsune, to the extent that Bob can still hold off for a long time, even indefinitely if they are prepared to stick to it: they have advantages of sovereignty that we didn't have in the detorid campaign, and that RA didn't have against LV when proportionately far more outnumbered than Bob, and we both survived.  And Bob have the ability to blob out a system to unplayability with supercaps and caps that we've never had.

Faced with a substantially smaller opponent, however (we had ships watching both fleets), but who had experience using their caps up front, Bob folded tonight, and ran for it despite all Molly's buildup of camp theatrics and defiant "sry, nope" posts.  And the question is how often they can run away before their coherence as an alliance fractures.  As has often been pointed out, most Bob members joined so they could always be on the easy-win side.  Many of their members (shinra, finfleet etc) are comedic, and a large proportion are made up of the skimmings of people we already defeated.  The question will be whether we want them to die more than they want to keep getting up at horrible times and skipping work to defend across ranges of timezones.

Three months ago I would have agreed with you that it would take the better part of '08 to finish them off.  That their defeat was inevitable, but that it would be a long, hard, bloody fight because of the valid reasons you and others list.

I no longer believe it will take as long as the collective Eve wisdom says it will.  If you read their forums, talk to their members, and observe their recent skittishness in battle you also might agree that the pace of their collapse and desperation is growing fast.  I can tell you for a fact that MC is already picking up some good pilots, that reports of corp assets turning up missing is rising, that their industrial POS backbone has taken a beating of utterly epic proportions.

I'll go with 3-4 months before BoB is irrelevant.  Yeah, I'm well aware everyone else says it will take much longer.  BTW, I don't know anybody whose opinion I take seriously who thinks BoB will win, we're all just arguing about how long it's going to take for them to die.   I've heard the same debate within Bob - not if, but how long until the end.

When you have pilots talking openly amongst themselves like that you have a serious problem.

[Kitsune]

There's no accounting for the players, yeah.  It's entirely possible that enough of their corp is composed of people who can't stand to not be on the side with the I-Win button that they'll fall apart at the prospect of having to work for their suppers.  If they do fall apart that way, then that's simply a failure of their leadership.  Any half-competent person in charge of a group like that should be planning on falling back to their most valuable holdings and reorganizing their members to minimize their losses now.  An orderly withdrawal now to save as many of their ships and resources as possible is much better than flailing around and getting shot by lots of people.  Choose the time and place of the battle and other Sun-Tzu-isms like that and all.

Not that it matters to me, the noob in high-sec.  From everything I've read about BoB on here, they deserve to be beaten into submission after all the skeezy and probably-cheating-but-never-called-for-it things they did.  And when they fall, another group will take their place, be it the goons or whoever, and then everyone will gang up against them, and the cycle will repeat.

[Fordel]

I'm still waiting for MC to go "Fools, we would never abandon our leader Molle!" then the MC and BoB Titans merge to form Voltron and save the day.

[Slayerik]

Usually when shit goes wrong, it snowballs (failure cascade).

Soon enough, Bob pilots are going to say...Well fuck risking my faction/officer fitted carrier! Screw getting this Momma blown up for 'the greater good' ... I'll just rob my corp and leave. Or they stop logging in. Whoops sorry guys, RL issues (never had an RL issue in 2 years until the shit starts hitting the fan : ).

Either way, it is pretty impressive they have lasted as long as they have...even though I don't like em.

[Comstar]

I'm now thinking that BoB's lifetime depends more on FIX than BoB itself. FIX is still in the way of the RSF, and there's a number of FIX stations that have to be taken before Delve. If FIX folds and abandons the front, you'll have a delay while the RSF supply lines have to be rebuilt, but if FIX stands up (which everyone will agree, they have done in the past quite well) BoB can start getting some victories.

BoB had *won* in 5-N and V2, the IAC towers were down and the supercap fleet had stopped RSF and IAAAAC forces. Then they pulled out to...well, glare at MC and then not do much.  Kitsune's right: it's really up to the BoB leadership though. I don't believe they can win, BoB's doomed no matter what, but with good leadership they can hold off the inevitable for quite a long time, with just the supercap fleet alone. Unfortunately, BoB hasn't shown much good leadership lately.

Still, it's quite an epic story, the death of an empire.

[Endie]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Bob will win.  But they could win.  By which I mean survive in the way that Red Alliance did, by being more committed to the defence than the attackers are to destroying them; by lashing out repeatedly and making pilots fear for their best ships; by grinding away at a frustrated enemy until they quietly leave.

Or they could win in the way that Goonfleet won in Detorid: by marshalling their remaining allies, and by getting up at horrible hours night after night (I ended up with an ulcer on my eyeball in the fortnight's defence of 9-9, because I was stupidly wearing contact lenses for 18 hours at a go, coming home from work and staying up til 4am, handing over to the Anzac crew, not the US TZ, then snatching sleep and going to work again), then pulling off an operational coup by attacking where least expected.

But I don't think they will do any of those, because their leadership is weak, their diplomats incompetent, their developer-members emasculated, their exploits increasingly blocked, and their pilots not nearly as good as they thought.

Oh, and Comstr is right: it's all about Fix.  I imagine the wooing going on right now is insane.

[LC]

I have thought about joining some fights, but BoB seems to frown upon pilots who use cheaper ships like interceptors now. Most of my stuff was left behind in tenerifis while I was away. I hope the ship doesn't sink while I do some invention to fatten my wallet.


Personally I wish we could abandon delve and keep fountain.

[dwindlehop]

Delve has the NPC stations, yes?

[bhodi]

I have thought about joining some fights, but BoB seems to frown upon pilots who use cheaper ships like interceptors now.

Wow, this kind of elitism is a bunch of crap. No offense, but why are you still with them? They really seem like a bunch of cocks.

[Endie]

I have thought about joining some fights, but BoB seems to frown upon pilots who use cheaper ships like interceptors now. Most of my stuff was left behind in tenerifis while I was away. I hope the ship doesn't sink while I do some invention to fatten my wallet.


Personally I wish we could abandon delve and keep fountain.

This has to be a cunning fakepost?  I mean, today, amongst Bob's losses already are a taranis, a crusader and a crow, as well as a kestrel and a rifter.  Yesterday saw Bob lose a drake, a ferox (someone using up ships from last time they were in Delve?!?), a manticore and stuff.  xxBeatnikxx even used a tristan!

Even in fleet encounters, here is the most recent decent-sized fleet battle for Bob where they try to nail down PL: http://killboard.net/fleetbattle/2296/ complete with three interceptors, four battlecruisers, a cruiser and a frigate.

So get out and shoot stuff.  And if your alliance really do care about people not flying HACs then why not consider joining a winning team ;)

[Slayerik]

I have thought about joining some fights, but BoB seems to frown upon pilots who use cheaper ships like interceptors now.

Wow, this kind of elitism is a bunch of crap. No offense, but why are you still with them? They really seem like a bunch of cocks.

Well, I have seen the same sentiment in my alliance. Fact is, ceptors are the cheap way out and less effective than say a vagabond. Ceptors just don't pack much punch. If everyone starts bring ceptors due to not wanting to lose ships...thats a bad sign, and a bad gang.

[Sparky]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Bob will win.  But they could win.  By which I mean survive in the way that Red Alliance did, by being more committed to the defence than the attackers are to destroying them; by lashing out repeatedly and making pilots fear for their best ships; by grinding away at a frustrated enemy until they quietly leave.

If there's anything in this war I'm sure about it's that goons will not quit; until either Goonswarm or BoB are disbanded and thier pilots scattered throughout the galaxy.  Killing BoB is their reason for being since "there are no goons", so much goon identity is wrapped up in that I really wonder where they're going post-BoB.

[Simond]

We'll go ride bikes or get distracted by something shiny or similar. 

[LC]

This has to be a cunning fakepost?

No there was a post not long ago stating that they shouldn't see us flying ships like interceptors. Maybe it was just a RKK thing. I would try to look for it, but the forums have been down for a while.

[Simond]

Yeah...you do know why your boards are down, right?

Well, they might gain a whole region, but they lost the respect they gained in years.

Things doesn't change a lot for me... i'll be always right there, fighting side by side with the only brothers i have.

Good call Molle.

---

As fun as this will be (ie: A LOT), Am I wrong in thinking theres pretty much no way we can win vs all the people arrayed against us now? Lets take as many down with us as possible.

Perhaps this is overly pessamistic, and besides, this is easily the most fun course of action, which is the most important thing

---

Winning is a state of mind - we are not our space and therefore cannot be defeated. We could lose every station & POS in EvE and still we won't have lost - there will be no losing by us when it's taken them 50k accounts to take us on. They can crow all they like on the forum, the simple fact is we've already won.

To coin a goon phrase - they don't 'get' BoB!

---

Why in the hell would everyone be on TS telling everyone to be respectful to an alliance that has bailed out on its friends in order to try to save themselves? Sorry, but MC doesnt deserve respect. Unless there is some big master plan that I dont know about (very well could be) can we please stop with the "be nice to MC" crap?

---

To quote Winston Churchill.....
"When you're going to kill someone, it costs nothing to be polite..."

---

You know I was expecting MC to make an announcement that they had accepted a contract against us. Instead they made an announcement that they were not only making a land grab from us but they had also brought in friends to do so. So instead of going back to their mercenary origins they turned into treacherous land thieves. Well they must be banking on our defeat because they know we will never let them go. They better pray that their gambled paid off

---

Being new to BoB, but not to Eve, I must admit I'm surprised by this. The lack of honour shown by MC is quite disturbing. (Yes I know Yakuza shot blues in when still in Rise, but that was for shits, giggles & internal drama bombs, this is something else entirely).


MC could have taken and held a region for themselves, on their own merits. Instead, they have taken the easy option. They have joined the bandwagon and stabbed us in the back. This is nothing less than an act of aggression.

I do not know what the future brings, but whatever happens, I wil be there to fight alongside you, my brothers and sisters, until the very end and beyond.

----


We are Bob. nothing will break us. even if NOL would lie in ashes we would still bring torture and death to our enemies as roaming ghosts, never resting and never forgiving! We dont even need a home. All we need are each other!


----


I know I cant tell anyone else what to do, but I can ask;

Please. PLEASE. PLEEEEAAAASE can people stop posting the most banal bullshit on the eve-o coad forums with alts. I know a lot of it is other alliances in the GBC alts but some of it must be BoB.

We are in the rare position for us of actually gaining some political capital from MC backstabbing us so blatantly, and its being undone by all the angry/lame shitposting by alts.

Its all very well saying that the forums dont affect anything, but we all know thats a lie. They influence attitudes, which are very important in a game as political as eve.

This goes for mains, and scrapheap too. Any post which sounds petulant, angry, whiney or fatalistic is just bullshit and should be stopped.

The Mittani sends his regards.

[Fordel]

We are Bob. nothing will break us. even if NOL would lie in ashes we would still bring torture and death to our enemies as roaming ghosts, never resting and never forgiving! We dont even need a home. All we need are each other!

For real? 

[Vinadil]

Well, for real... if they can pull it off.  Actually, the most frightening kind of army in this type of game is one with vast resources and absolutely no tie to any assets that they have to defend.  Then they can just move as they want through the game and destroy stuff at will with almost no threat of reprisal.

Problem is that not many people actually enjoy that style of gameplay for very long... and so those people quickly become non-factors.  But, I remember such speaches being made in old PvP games like Shadowbane all the time.

Man, this would make a good movie... I swear CCP gets my $$ every month more for this thread than for the time I spend in their game.

[ajax34i]

I was looking at CCP's economics-related blogs on the official forums, and they were listing stuff like ships destroyed in PVP per year.  80,000 Ravens, and smaller (but still 5-figure) numbers for other ships, and I got to thinking, how many crew get killed in these constant wars, per year.  I can't find the crew complement of a Raven, but if it's 1000, that's 80 million NPCs per year.  Multiply by however many types of ships there are, and it's probably in the range of a planet's population wiped out per year.

The NPC empires should freak out at the fact that pod pilots cause this kind of body count.

[Morat20]

The NPC empires should freak out at the fact that pod pilots cause this kind of body count.

I was wandering through the EVE Chronicles (their little fiction short stories) and noticed that the phrase "Murderous Capsuleers" shows up a lot, so someone is apparently aware of the huge amount of damage we cause. :)

[Kitsune]

If they really get their backs against the wall, BoB ought to disperse to high sec space and lay low for a month or so, do some mining, rebuild some ships, raise some skills.  Deprived of a primary target, it's a safe bet that the Goonswarm will turn their attentions on everything else in 0.0 eventually, 'cause it's not like they're playing to be good neighbors.  When the cries of 'Oh noes, who can save us from teh goonz?' come from the other corps, BoB can then charge back in and save the day, salvaging a good part of their terrible reputation along the way.  BoB is a bully on the ropes right now, and everyone'll want to take a swing.  But get out of the ring and let a new bully get everyones' attention, and you can bet that a lot of their past transgressions will be overlooked by the people on the wrong end of the goon fleets.

[Kitsune]

I was looking at CCP's economics-related blogs on the official forums, and they were listing stuff like ships destroyed in PVP per year.  80,000 Ravens, and smaller (but still 5-figure) numbers for other ships, and I got to thinking, how many crew get killed in these constant wars, per year.  I can't find the crew complement of a Raven, but if it's 1000, that's 80 million NPCs per year.  Multiply by however many types of ships there are, and it's probably in the range of a planet's population wiped out per year.

The NPC empires should freak out at the fact that pod pilots cause this kind of body count.

Wait, I thought that the pod ships had only the pilot, with all of the other ship systems being computer-controlled?

[JoeTF]

Nah, looking for numbers of non-capsuleer (NPc) ships, my guess would be capsuleers are just a tiny fraction of overall deaths.

Simond, that was some impressive post filtering. I mean, topic in question is 22 page long right now.

Also, sending regards over BoB general forums is pretty weaksauce. If that's the best Mittani has to offer, then even lowly grunt like me have better intel network...

[ajax34i]

Wait, I thought that the pod ships had only the pilot, with all of the other ship systems being computer-controlled?

No, there are a few RP stories written by CCP that mention that capsule ships do have crews.  The pod reduces a ship's complement by a lot, but doesn't eliminate it.  At some point ships actually had the number of crew listed in their info, but I think CCP removed that useless stat (probably part of their "faster server" initiative).  In any case, from what I remember, even a frigate has a crew, but it's 4 instead of 100 like the non-capsule NPC ships have.  Explains the windows on the ships too.

And you're right, the PvE activities (killing NPC ships) result in just as many NPC's supposedly being killed, but I guess no one would care since they're just Guristas etc.

[Kitsune]

And you're right, the PvE activities (killing NPC ships) result in just as many NPC's supposedly being killed, but I guess no one would care since they're just Guristas etc.

They should be resulting in far more NPCs killed, given that the NPCs don't seem to be capsule piloted ships.  I've yet to see any pods pop out of ships I killed, at least.  So really, ganking PCs is the far more humane option with far fewer people killed.

[JoeTF]

So day one of operation Payday.












...they should rename it operation lagday.


EDIT: Mission Accomplished - Minas Atoch just got doomsdayed.  Poor fucker thought that if he's alone in a grid, in a cloaked cov ops, he might be safe:P

[Endie]

EDIT: Mission Accomplished - Minas Atoch just got doomsdayed.  Poor fucker thought that if he's alone in a grid, in a cloaked cov ops, he might be safe:P

Personally, I am delighted that MC are discovering the joys of going up against five titans.  Turns out it's not as easy as they thought 

[Drogo]

Did you guys really just use a doomsday on one guy just because you hate him?