Little Peeves

[Sjofn]

Once you get Tharan (end of Nar Shadda) you should be pretty much unstoppable. Qyzen is not really ideal as a partner for a shadow, sadly. His deepz is sort of crap and he can be annoying to gear up.

[Furiously]

And all he does is talk about the scorekeeper!

[Sjofn]

POINTS IS IMPORTANT OMG

[Fordel]

As a sniper, Dr. Lokken is the only companion that even matters.  Once I hit 40, I never even bothered with the rest.  I see this as a bigger issue with the game.  The only reason for the other companions is to run missions.  Meh.   Give me a reason to use other companions.  Please!

Oddly, the only characters I feel I can swap companions out on are.. healers. Because that's the one role that MUST be present. My scoundrel can happily sub in a tank companion, or usually runs with any option of DPS companion (why are there so many DPS companions, but not say a dps/healer hybrid that heals less than the main healer, or something?)

This also makes the companion system seem slightly more flawed in that I can usually only run with one companion regularly, because ::gear::. Sure, I can afford to sub out to my tank or my alternate better fit for the quest line plot DPS, but they're probably going to be about half as effect as Risha because when you get companion quest gear you can only pick it for one companion.

Speaking of companion gear, how do you guys handle loot rolls in FPs? I won't roll need on anything that my char won't use right away, but I have run into a few people that will roll need on gear for their companions. I'm ok with that, but would prefer to know that up front so I can also roll on the things that Mako or Blizz can use.

Guild groups it's no issue, PUGs have been all over the place on it so far.

Oh god, Slap loot rolls are going to time out even more now. "Well, I don't need it much" "I don't really need it either!" "what about your companions?" "Well it's only one more.."*SMASH*

This is just another reason why Troopers are the best class, all my companions gear is the same as my gear!

[Nevermore]

The talented sorc/sage one also requires not being a healer, doesn't it? My sage doesn't have the "instant" part, as you would have to be pants crapping insane to not take the top seer talent (as a healer, obvs). The AE part only affects the little shitty dudes, which is nice solo but not exciting in the least in a group as you're either fighting stuff immune to the talent or facerolling the little dudes anyway, so why bother. I took that talent for the shorter cooldown on the stun, personally.  

But the whole point was to help the pure DPS solo.  >.>   At least, that was my point.  Although having something more than just pure DPS to bring to a party would be nice for them, too.

[Sjofn]

You said they need "more utility stuff," generally people say that when they feel a class doesn't bring enough to a group by themselves. <shrug> Even so, space sap is nothing to sneeze at for soloing purposes. Space sap is why their mez sucks, by the way.

[Nevermore]

I'm well acquainted with space sap since my tank also has it.  I suppose I was using 'utility' in too general a way.  I didn't want to just say 'survivability' though, since I think they could use something both helps solo and makes them desirable in groups aside from straight dps.

Edit: besides, Gunslingers/Snipers and Sentinels/Marauders don't have space sap anyway. >.>

[Jherad]

Gunslingers are by far the worst off and hardest to level.

Good grief no. Not even close.

I have a 41 gunslinger now, and it has been an order of magnitude easier to level (and do story quests/bosses with) than my Juggernaut ever was. The major difference being that if my companion dies (I mostly use Risha now), I can still easily kill an elite solo, whilst with the DPS jugg it was game over unless said elite had but a sliver of health left. 2 Strong mobs are a joke, and of course the 60 second droid CC really helps in many areas.

Melee elites are harder, but still easy to burn down before they cause any kind of problem - the class just takes so much less damage.

I do agree that the difference between empire and republic in when you get your companions are stupid though.

Edit: Heck, ranged elite fights you can get aggro, find cover and then hide taking next to zero damage while your companion whittles them down. Just pop out with a big shot whenever they do a long cast to keep aggro, and drop down again before the cast ends so you take no damage.

[apocrypha]

Yeah, Juggernaut was my first character, started as tank, respecced DPS, got to 30ish, started a few alts... and suddenly realised how painfully difficult Jugg was compared to everything else.

I've now got 2 other alts past 40 and a few others 15-26 but the Juggernaut is still 31. I reckon twinking the hell out of him with crafted gear/drops and overlevelling him with space combat/pvp is the way to go! 

[Typhon]

But then the counter argument is true, if a hybrid class can do the same dps as a pure dps class, why would you ever play the pure dps class?

I'm not arguing for pure dps to do more damage, I'm arguing for a moratorium on pure dps classes.  This will create a skill gap between players that are able to properly choose the right ability at the right time (instead of spamming a dps rotation) - I'm good with that.

[01101010]

Good grief no. Not even close.

I have a 41 gunslinger now, and it has been an order of magnitude easier to level (and do story quests/bosses with) than my Juggernaut ever was. The major difference being that if my companion dies (I mostly use Risha now), I can still easily kill an elite solo, whilst with the DPS jugg it was game over unless said elite had but a sliver of health left. 2 Strong mobs are a joke, and of course the 60 second droid CC really helps in many areas.

Melee elites are harder, but still easy to burn down before they cause any kind of problem - the class just takes so much less damage.

I do agree that the difference between empire and republic in when you get your companions are stupid though.

Edit: Heck, ranged elite fights you can get aggro, find cover and then hide taking next to zero damage while your companion whittles them down. Just pop out with a big shot whenever they do a long cast to keep aggro, and drop down again before the cast ends so you take no damage.

That is also part of a person's playstyle. I really can't stand my gunslinger at all. The only part I do enjoy on him is his interstellar whoring. I hate playing him and hate how the class actually plays. It was fine at first, but in my 20s it is just frustrating and boring at the same time. I still like my sage though I am preoccupied with the tank spec'd assassin atm. I gravitate to tank builds anyway and while I constantly flirt with the idea of rolling a dps class in every game (Rift was the first time I took a dps class to cap), it just never works out in my fun dept. Why I keep kicking myself in the balls to try and play them is beyond me.

All that said, yeah, Juggs are pretty painful to play after you see how a powertech and vanguard play out.

[Jherad]

Yeah, Gunslinger combat is less fun than the Jugg (when he's not getting curbstomped constantly). The storyline and and voice acting really help me keep it going though.

Now, my Merc is way less fun in combat than even the Gunslinger - from the moment I got Tracer missile and realised I could pretty much clear out my hotbars (which was the reason I rolled a Gunslinger in the first place).

I think all my little peeve's have been pretty much covered in this thread. I'm still having fun!

[Paelos]

I levelled a JK Tank spec the whole way, so obviously I'm braindamaged when it comes to leveling speed.

[Sky]

kill an elite solo

Champion.

[Nebu]

Peeve: Give me 3 gear tabs PLEASE!  

Tab 1: PvE gear
Tab 2: PvP gear
Tab 3: Appearance gear.  (I'd like to wear some white gear pieces that I can't mod... they look cool)

Thank you!

Alternatively, I'd settle for a macro/button that allows me to swap gear sets for pvp/pve.  Having to do it manually gets old.

[Shatter]

I reached a point on my Sorc I stopped doing quests and wasting my time running around and just AE'd the hell out of mobs.  The xp gain per hour was a lot better then quest chasing.  Sorcs get at least 3-4 AE abilities with little cooldowns. 

[Nebu]

I reached a point on my Sorc I stopped doing quests and wasting my time running around and just AE'd the hell out of mobs.  The xp gain per hour was a lot better then quest chasing.  Sorcs get at least 3-4 AE abilities with little cooldowns. 

You must be lightning specced.  I'm madness and I have one AE.  ONE. 

[CmdrSlack]

I reached a point on my Sorc I stopped doing quests and wasting my time running around and just AE'd the hell out of mobs.  The xp gain per hour was a lot better then quest chasing.  Sorcs get at least 3-4 AE abilities with little cooldowns. 

You must be lightning specced.  I'm madness and I have one AE.  ONE. 

I've been messing with a lightning/madness build. Death field is a nice follow-up to force storm when I want to clean up trash mobs fast.

[Ingmar]

But then the counter argument is true, if a hybrid class can do the same dps as a pure dps class, why would you ever play the pure dps class?

Because you like the specific class better than the other options? Because of how it plays, or the other random utility it has, or you like being a stealther, or you like NOT being a stealther, or the story, or the companions, or 235 other possible reasons.

[Typhon]

But then the counter argument is true, if a hybrid class can do the same dps as a pure dps class, why would you ever play the pure dps class?

Because you like the specific class better than the other options? Because of how it plays, or the other random utility it has, or you like being a stealther, or you like NOT being a stealther, or the story, or the companions, or 235 other possible reasons.

I don't know what conversation you are having.  The conversation that I'm having is, "how should developers handle hybrid versus dps design questions".  Mostly the answer has been, "pure dps does more damage", but this has caused issues with the players playing hybrids (and teammates/guildmates hoping to have all players playing a viable class).  Now developers now seem to be leaning toward, "hybrid has to do as much dps as pure'. 

But we already covered this point in EQ.  EQ's solution was that the hybrid could reach the same point as the pure, but it took much longer.  This didn't work.

So now we have a hybrid character that does the same dps as a pure.  Which raises the question of why (mechanically) a dev would create an inferior class by design.  Rather then go through this cluster-fuck again for another decade, I'm hoping that the devs will choose to make every class a hybrid class.  GW2 seems like it might be going this route (to some extent).

Class flavor, story, any of the 235 other reasons you (don't) site, have nothing to do with the design decisions that a developer would make regarding the combat abilities a class brings to the table.  ... which is what I was talking about.

[Ingmar]

You said "why would you ever play the pure dps class", not "why would you ever design the pure dps class". I was assuming you were making the (incorrect) assumption that all players make their decision purely on how powerful they perceive a class to be.

[Nebu]

You said "why would you ever play the pure dps class", not "why would you ever design the pure dps class". I was assuming you were making the (incorrect) assumption that all players make their decision purely on how powerful they perceive a class to be.

The fault was mine.  I starting the line of questioning as a design question more than a player selection question.  I should have been clearer to begin with.

[Sky]

The devs answered that a long time ago. Some people have no interest in playing a tank or a healer. Pure dps classes give them more options within the class.

[01101010]

You said "why would you ever play the pure dps class", not "why would you ever design the pure dps class". I was assuming you were making the (incorrect) assumption that all players make their decision purely on how powerful they perceive a class to be.

Now you guys are talking about different types of gamers. Value to the group or the min/max'er will always reside with which class they can get the most out of. If each class drops 100d/s but the hybrid can also support heal/cc/interrupt/etc, then yeah... why would anyone who plays the game to get the most out of it play a pure dps class when it does the same dmg but does nothing else. You are also less useful in the group as well since you can only dps and it's no better than someone with more tools.

[Ingmar]

The DPSers (perhaps minus DPS-specced knights/warriors) in this game do have various support tools. They're just not 'hybrids' which as far as I can tell in this discussion means 'they don't have heals.'

[Nebu]

The devs answered that a long time ago. Some people have no interest in playing a tank or a healer. Pure dps classes give them more options within the class.

I'd argue that they didn't deliver this as intended.  I'd also argue that someone uninterested in playing a healer or tank can still benefit greatly from having access to a healing or tanking tree.  

[tmp]

why would anyone who plays the game to get the most out of it play a pure dps class when it does the same dmg but does nothing else. You are also less useful in the group as well since you can only dps and it's no better than someone with more tools.

I suppose if someone is only interested in doing the damage and doesn't enjoy/want to divide their attention/playtime between that damage dealing and whatever else is there... they have no reason not to pick a pure dps class.

[Fabricated]

There's something usually streaky feeling about Vanguard tank damage reduction...also our gear when you hit 50 sucks.

Literally everything on the AH, everything I can craft, and most of the stuff that drops has no shield rating on it which is pretty much the stat I need. It's all defense and absorption rating.

[01101010]

The DPSers (perhaps minus DPS-specced knights/warriors) in this game do have various support tools. They're just not 'hybrids' which as far as I can tell in this discussion means 'they don't have heals.'

I agree... this was more a stab at the notion there is a pure DPS class. I can't think of one that doesn't have some utility - it's about which utility is considered most helpful (i.e., healz).

That said, I love to see people spam general LFG, need DPS - have tank and healz!!1! -When in reality, any class can fit so the use of DPS is sort of archaic. I was asked on my Marauder to come dps for an athiss run. I was actually logging off... but I would have gone - however it does point to there being certain classes that are known or categorized as DPS classes, when we really don't have a fair assessment of if they actually are a dps class anymore than any other.

[Nebu]

Support tools?  My sniper provides a buff, a debuff, and can mezz a droid.  That's really not much in terms of support. 

If I'm a dps specialist, then give me some thing truly special to do.  Allow me extra damage vs droids or jedi or some special ability that makes other classes stare in awe.  Orbital strike that a) takes a year to go off and b) knocks mobs out of the AE is NOT it.

[Shatter]

Support tools?  My sniper provides a buff, a debuff, and can mezz a droid.  That's really not much in terms of support. 

If I'm a dps specialist, then give me some thing truly special to do.  Allow me extra damage vs droids or jedi or some special ability that makes other classes stare in awe.  Orbital strike that a) takes a year to go off and b) knocks mobs out of the AE is NOT it.

I was in a WZ last night and someone tried to use Orbital Strike on me....I moved...slowly...away

[tmp]

That said, I love to see people spam general LFG, need DPS - have tank and healz!!1! -When in reality, any class can fit so the use of DPS is sort of archaic.

Well, any class can fit the dps role in the way any class can fit the tank role by acting as a hp poll that takes the beating.

As example, a shadow with some points put into damage talent trees can utilize their bread-and-butter damage abilities ~2x as often as the one who goes the full tank route. Given such potential difference in the damage output, a desire to get an actual dps-specced character for the role doesn't seem to be too out of place.

[Ingmar]

Support tools?  My sniper provides a buff, a debuff, and can mezz a droid.  That's really not much in terms of support. 

If I'm a dps specialist, then give me some thing truly special to do.  Allow me extra damage vs droids or jedi or some special ability that makes other classes stare in awe.  Orbital strike that a) takes a year to go off and b) knocks mobs out of the AE is NOT it.

You also have a group defensive cooldown (scrambling field/ballistic shield), useful debuffs (-target armor, -accuracy), a 30m range interrupt, and some useful secondary CC (the group blind, leg shot).

[Fordel]

There's something usually streaky feeling about Vanguard tank damage reduction...also our gear when you hit 50 sucks.

Literally everything on the AH, everything I can craft, and most of the stuff that drops has no shield rating on it which is pretty much the stat I need. It's all defense and absorption rating.

Yea I know, Augments are your friends and I can make you implants if you are on Shien.

Also the Illum Heroic 2 daily has enhancement slots for rewards and one of them is end/shield/absorb worth doing. Vigilant Enhancements.

You do want Absorb rating too though, keep that in mind.


With the gear I have right now, I am running 55% Shield Chance, 42% ASorb, 15% Defense, 50% DR and 18,400ish HP. When I drop smoke grenade there's only a 10% chance I actually get 'hit' normally. Then you just rotate through med packs, adrenals, and our cooldowns. Oh and there's another 4% DR from attacking too.

If I start collecting tier gear from pvp or pve raids/hardmodes whatever, I'll gain like 2000 hp but I'll lose quite a few secondary stats. Not sure it's worth it? It's also a lot of aim too on that tier gear.


-edit-

Oh  yea, the prefix you probably want it called 'Veracity' that has lots of shield rating and defensive/tanky stats.


-edit 2-

Right, that HP total is WITH a 108 endurance stim, forgot to mention that.

[Sky]

Literally everything on the AH, everything I can craft, and most of the stuff that drops has no shield rating on it which is pretty much the stat I need. It's all defense and absorption rating.

+shield is one of the RE lines (Veracity if REing from Redoubt for +shield/+defense, respectively) http://www.torhead.com/schematic/6TxhTry/powered-ultramesh-body-armor

However, that's the piece that ended my BH's quest for RE'ing up a set of armor. Dozens of blues without a purple, the hell with it.