f13.net

Correct. 3.55++ or whatever.

How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?

Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.

The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.

Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.

Paizo Publishing, LLC has licensed the MMORPG electronic gaming rights to its smash-hit Pathfinder Roleplaying Game intellectual property to Goblinworks, a Redmond, Washington game developer and publisher that will create Pathfinder Online, a next-generation fantasy sandbox massively multiplayer online game. Founded by Paizo co-owner Lisa Stevens (Pathfinder RPG, Vampire: The Masquerade, Magic: The Gathering), game industry veteran Ryan S. Dancey (Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition, EVE Online), and experienced MMO developer Mark Kalmes (Microsoft, Cryptic Studios, CCP), Goblinworks is an independent company that will work with Paizo Publishing to bring the award-winning world and adventures of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game to the online gaming market. The process has only just begun, and there is plenty of opportunity for gamers to get in on the ground floor of this exciting new project. Paizo and Goblinworks are committed to solicitin g player feedback about the Pathfinder Online project, and more information can be found at goblinworks.com.

Pathfinder Online will cast players as heroes in a unique online fantasy world filled with sword & sorcery adventures and kingdoms inhabited and controlled by thousands of competing players. Players can explore, develop, adventure, and dominate by playing fighters, rogues, clerics, or any of Pathfinder's many character classes, or they can go beyond the standard options to create nearly any type of character imaginable. Find lairs, ruins, and caverns filled with monstrous creatures and incredible treasure. Build glittering cities of castles and bustling markets. Take to the battlefield with vast armies to seize and hold territory. Players change the world and create new stories as they compete for resources, land, and military might. The possibilities are endless.

They sent out a press release type of thing to their newsletter subscribers today.

So, a sandbox MMOG with themepark elements that is still searching for investors.

Right.

Big Things Come in Small Packages

The second critical issue with theme park MMOs is that it's very difficult to entertain a crowd of theme park enthusiasts who have completed all the theme park content... and theme park enthusiasts can blast through content in no time. If new content isn't ready when players have finished the old content, they'll flee to another MMO (many will go back to World of Warcraft). The result is the "spike & crash" pattern we've seen with every major fantasy theme park MMO released in the past five years. Companies are then in the position where they no longer have enough customers to cover the cost of the enormous infrastructure they've built up for the launch. This is why many MMOs don't have long-term success.

Lisa's challenge to figure out how to make the game on a lean budget led me to the realization that the last thing we want is a huge spike of players followed by a rapid decline. What we want instead is a slow, steady growth of players—the same kind of growth that EVE Online has experienced almost every year since its launch. Since Goblinworks won't have to pay off a huge theme park mortgage, our focus will instead be on making our virtual world as engaging as possible and sustaining that virtual world as the population grows over years of time.

But a sandbox needs a critical mass of players to interact with each other, or they may as well be playing a solo game. One part of the design that helps determine the amount of interaction is the density of the world—how big is it and how many characters are in that space?

We believe that we've solved that equation in a surprising way, which led us to what we think is a revolutionary plan.

At launch, and for the first seven months following, we will cap new paying players at 4,500 per month. Four thousand five hundred new paying players monthly. We expect to keep only about 25% of those players on a long-term basis, so after we factor in attrition of each month's signups, we end up with 16,500 paying players at the end of that seven-month period.

Making a game that starts with 4,500 players and grows to 16,500 players is much, much easier and vastly less expensive than making a game designed to accommodate a million players on day one. We'll be able to focus on a relatively small part of the world at first, expanding it only as we need to.

After the first seven months, we'll raise the limit on new paying players to 12,000 per month. That will remain our goal for the next couple years of Pathfinder Online's life cycle. Factoring in attrition, by the end of the game's third year of operation, we expect to have about 120,000 paying players. For many MMOs, that number would be considered a failure, but because of our lean development strategy, achieving that number of paying customers will mean success for Pathfinder Online.

We're leveraging middleware to reduce cost, development time and risk. We're making a sandbox-focused game with a launch target of 4,500 players on a slow but steady growth plan.

And one of the best parts of it is that it means our development plan is much shorter than traditional theme park MMOs require. Once we've begun full production, we'll be sharing milestones with the community so you'll be able to track our progress from start to release.

It's a great sounding theory.

However...


It's a low-return, long-term model. There will be the rush to get in early (and forced exclusivity will actually create greater launch demand from certain groups) but the critical question is how many players will still want to be signing up 3 months post-launch. If you aren't on the first wave in sandbox-ish game, there is the risk that you'll be crowded out by other players / guilds establishing themselves. Also, a shorter development time means less content which in turn means that there will be a lot of players who complain about lack of content. That's not good in a small pool of early paying users.

I'm all for different game development models and shorter development times for MMOs, but this seems an odd mix. Did player caps on release work for Darkfall?

The middleware is also a thing. It isn't as bad as it was a few years ago, but this model isn't going to have the revenue to work around middleware restrictions / limitations if they don't pick the right one up front.

Seems like a questionable solution to the wrong problem to me. Any solution that boils down to "don't let people buy our game" sounds like a bad starting point.

And while I agree that a smaller title should aim for a more sandbox / interesting mechanics style of play over theme-park content (like Eve did and Fallen Earth didn't) I still don't see how that ties to the solution presented. You need to get a user base established ASAP (and an income stream) that will keep people sticking with the product while content evolves. And likewise you need a substantial population to make most of the interesting mechanics work. Eve would never have worked if the growth of player organisations had been stymied, and space been empty, as this  suggestion encourages.

You don't think 4500 is enough for one server in the first month? Dunno where you're getting the 'space is empty, etc' comment from.

Pathfinder does have it's own setting IP thing right?

Its the smartest (simplified) business model for a niche MMO I've seen yet.

How are they going to decide who gets in?

I think the idea is sound, but it seems more fitting for an IP with no brand recognition. I imagine a few gamers know of Pathfinder, and word of mouth among the MMOGers should give this thing a bit of exposure.

How can it be Pathfinder without levels?

Because it uses the Pathfinder setting. They *cannot* develop computer games with the d20 system, the OGL specifically limits that.

Because it uses the Pathfinder setting. They *cannot* develop computer games with the d20 system, the OGL specifically limits that.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pathfinder runs neck and neck with D&D in terms of market share now. Some quarters it actually beats them. I don't play it or have any desire to but there's absolutely a big market for the pen and paper game. Will it translate over to broader sales? Probably not.... which is why they're doing what they're doing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pathfinder runs neck and neck with D&D in terms of market share now. Some quarters it actually beats them. I don't play it or have any desire to but there's absolutely a big market for the pen and paper game. Will it translate over to broader sales? Probably not.... which is why they're doing what they're doing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pathfinder runs neck and neck with D&D in terms of market share now. Some quarters it actually beats them. I don't play it or have any desire to but there's absolutely a big market for the pen and paper game. Will it translate over to broader sales? Probably not.... which is why they're doing what they're doing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pathfinder runs neck and neck with D&D in terms of market share now.

Yeah, back when Savant and a bunch of us were talking about developing Cyberpunk Online, one of the ideas I argued for was a staggered "limited" release to alleviate the YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGG launch day server shit. Not only would the exclusivity work in our favor for marketing purposes (everyone loves the club they can't get into), but it would help with infrastructure build out. Nice to see someone actually trying that strategy out.

I cannot find any reliable information to support that. ICv2 seems to have some information, but none about how they do their sampling, and they don't catch any of the major distributors(or each subscription service) which are likely to have significant differences compared to their target market.

A sandbox MMO of this kind needs to emphasize trying to "level up the world", e.g., your gameplay has to be oriented on events, buildings, etc. in the world, not in your character; you have to have an emergent story and procedural content. If you do it right, coming in later in the story is ok. If it's all about being King Asshat of Turd Mountain, coming in later is not ok, e.g., if it's about characters accumulating progressively more and more resources from playing in the world. Then you can never catch up unless there is some kind of play dynamic that puts more and more pressure on the accumulators and makes it hard to keep what they've got.

Most of the devs I've talked to with an interest in sandbox design don't really grok this point. EVE is in some sense just as bad a example for the business model they've sketched as WoW is.

A sandbox MMO of this kind needs to emphasize trying to "level up the world", e.g., your gameplay has to be oriented on events, buildings, etc. in the world, not in your character; you have to have an emergent story and procedural content. If you do it right, coming in later in the story is ok. If it's all about being King Asshat of Turd Mountain, coming in later is not ok, e.g., if it's about characters accumulating progressively more and more resources from playing in the world. Then you can never catch up unless there is some kind of play dynamic that puts more and more pressure on the accumulators and makes it hard to keep what they've got.

Most of the devs I've talked to with an interest in sandbox design don't really grok this point. EVE is in some sense just as bad a example for the business model they've sketched as WoW is.

ICv2 is reliable "enough" to extrapolate outwards, which is what I think they do: take the info that is available and then crunch it to as reliable a number as you're going to find. If it's going to take earnings reports from every company above White Wolf size then nothing's ever going to be reliable.

Except that their methodology includes speaking to the manufacturers, themselves.

Most of the devs I've talked to with an interest in sandbox design don't really grok this point. EVE is in some sense just as bad a example for the business model they've sketched as WoW is.

Whats pathfinder?

One thing that we're deeply committed to at Goblinworks is building a game that has a low tolerance for "griefing."

An example is a group who attacks and kills trespassers in a certain area to deny access to that territory to other players.

Ways to ensure that only 4500 players a month are interested:

Corpse runs, possible inventory loss on death, player-driven justice system, need to be part of a strong guild to survive. (https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120118)

If you attempt to heal or buff characters who are in the act of attacking others, even if you are not a member of the same group or social organization as those you're healing, you'll be subject to the same penalties as the criminals you've chosen to associate with. Likewise, if you debuff, dispel, or banish assets of characters engaged in PvP, you'll be tagged with the same penalties as those your targets are fighting if they should die. In both cases, you'll make yourself a legitimate target for retribution during the fight—your opponents won't become criminals by acting to stop you from aiding their enemies.

Ways to ensure that only 4500 players a month are interested:

Corpse runs, possible inventory loss on death, player-driven justice system, need to be part of a strong guild to survive. (https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120118)

Your character will re-enter play at the soulbinding point holding and wearing whatever gear they had equipped when they died, so you won't have to start without your armor, or the weapons, wands, or staves you were using. However, until you return to your husk, you are in danger of losing the rest of your inventory. If you get to your husk before anyone else, you'll be able to get all your stuff back. However, if another player finds your husk before you do, they'll be able to loot it. They won't recover everything that you had in your inventory—just a random selection—but the rest of your inventory will be destroyed and removed from the game. If you die surrounded by allies, they can't just pick up all of your equipment for you, as doing so would cause some of it to be removed from the game, but your allies could attempt to defend your husk until you return to it, so that you lose nothing but travel time.

Translation: We haven't learned a goddamn thing from almost 13 years of released MMOG's. We are steadfastly committed to making the same fucking mistakes over and over again until our game is full of shitheels and crotchpheasants!

Ugh.  If I wanted a kick to the nuts in my gameplay  - I could just go play Vanguard again.

The DIKU loot model most of us grew up on (i.e. random rewards for loot requiring a /ran function in the game to decide who gets what) had some basis at least in human psychology (eg. gambling) but twisting that into random punishment (i.e. losing the cool loot item you just won because 4a$r4p3r looter won the lotto looting your corpse) is beyond daft.

I don't think anyone likes it.

Completely different i think. I don't like a 1/20 chance of getting a _____ paw. For example. I also do not like getting an item I can't use ( Loved WAR for this ). What I do not mind is random item looks, stats and slots. That's fine. Maybe I misunderstood what you guys were talking about.

Ways to ensure that only 4500 players a month are interested:

Corpse runs, possible inventory loss on death, player-driven justice system, need to be part of a strong guild to survive. (https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120118)

I don't think anyone likes it.

This came across my news feed today.

https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120201


Bringing back the 90s must be all the rage these days  :awesome_for_real:

This came across my news feed today.

https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120201


Bringing back the 90s must be all the rage these days  :awesome_for_real:

This Kickstarter will fund the Technology Demo of the Pathfinder Online Massively Multiplayer Online RPG.  The Technology Demo will be fully playable, integrating account management, character creation, a virtual world server, multiple simultaneously connected clients, middleware used for rendering landscapes and characters, basic game mechanics, and player communications.  The demo will only support a few simultaneous users exploring a couple of small locations, so the general public won't be able to play it, but we will produce a short video of the demo that everyone will be able to experience, and a special longer video exclusively for backers of this Kickstarter.

Your support of the Technology Demo will help us raise awareness of Pathfinder Online and will show potential investors what the game is really about.  Funding this demo will also signal to potential partners that Pathfinder Online has an audience that's large enough and dedicated enough to allow the long-term success of the MMO. Nothing speaks louder than a ton of people putting up money to show their support of a new concept—that’s the genius element of Kickstarter!

You don't think 4500 is enough for one server in the first month? Dunno where you're getting the 'space is empty, etc' comment from.

Work on the game will continue with the three remaining employees, paid by existing subscription revenue, which will also keep the servers online. Paizo is closing the Goblinworks office and moving the trio into the Paizo offices. Stevens says Paizo is seeking an external publisher to buy Goblinworks or investors to complete the game. There is hope, she says, since 75% of the game is already paid for; she expects the game will take between 1 million and 2 million dollars to finish.

The real lulz is this:  "Goblinworks CEO Ryan Dancey left the company two weeks ago for personal reasons unrelated to the layoffs."

Making online card games is hard.