Civilization V- Might actually be good now. Stay tuned.

[Pezzle]

All I want is a map editor like they had in Civ 4. My dirty little secret is that I like to give myself all the important resources when the game starts when I'm playing at higher difficulty levels.

Yeah, with online achieves I don't think we're ever going to get that.  Can't have people "cheating" to flip these meaningless virtual bits.

Actually, it looks like they did, sort of.  Download the SDK from steam.  Find your config for civ5.  Edit it and change EnableTuner to 1.  Start up civ 5 and the firetuner, load the game and alt tab.  There seems to be a bug right now where resources dropped in your border will not be usable.

[CmdrSlack]

So I start another game on a huge earth map, and it spawns me as Germany right around where New York city should be.  I have Hiawatha to the north of me, but he got boned with a shitty Arctic spawn and is stuck with one city.  Gandhi, however, spawned down in Mexico, and he's already founded Mumbai in Florida.  I can see that the little bastard has designs on Texas, which I know I'll need later in the game for its sweet, sweet oil.

I bide my time, whoop as many barb encampments as I can, and send my 12 brute horde against the diapered one.  2000 BC and North America is basically mine, but I'll leave Hiawatha alone.  For now.

Just rush to blanket tech.

[Paelos]

I'm playing as Japan and basically ended up on a Continent of my own by start position. I proceeded to settle that whole area, then went across the ocean to find Arabia. He's a total dishrag, so I sent over two horsemen and a capapult to plink one of his outlier cities on the coast. That enraged his little city-state in the South. After I take his city, he immediately sues for peace by giving me all his resources, all his gold, and an open border treaty. I take the deal because little city-state is about to get a bitch slapping. After taking that are, I now have two footholds on his continent, and I'm already pressing into another unsettled island with two city-states alone on it.

I have no idea where the rest of the 4 players are, and I've exposed 55% of the map. Also, the "Bushido" ability mixed with Samuri is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered in the mid-game. They are a walking wrecking crew at that point.

[Lantyssa]

Diplomacy sucks in this game.  You help a nation for years and they go hostile to you.  You send strategic resources to a nation being steamrolled and they go hostile to you.  You can gift units to city-states but not other nations?  Or am I missing something?

Last night when I was in the territory of someone I had open borders with I noticed there was a gift option on the extended actions menu.

[Pezzle]

Neither method of unit gifting is particularly user friendly.  You either need to be in their territory and have the unit in question active (with movement left) using the gift action OR talk with the people, offer a unit gift, find it on the map and click it. 

[Murgos]

It's not even Alexander's Companion's Cavalry, which is faster than mech. infantry. Seriously wtf. 5 MOVEMENT POINTS?

I guess you could say that they're gay?

[Jobu]

You can gift units to city-states but not other nations?  Or am I missing something?

You have to physically walk the unit into the nation's territory and then one of the unit options is "Gift". Of course, you need open borders to do that in the first place, so yeah... pretty uneven.

[Pezzle]

Another small gripe.  I would like to run trade missions with something other than great merchants.  Even if I am restricted to great merchants how about letting me trade with other civs instead of only city-states? 

[MrHat]

You can gift units to city-states but not other nations?  Or am I missing something?

You have to physically walk the unit into the nation's territory and then one of the unit options is "Gift". Of course, you need open borders to do that in the first place, so yeah... pretty uneven.

Also, gifting a unit to a city-state ports the unit across the map.

Weird that it works with city-states and not with civs.

The inconstancies are embarrassing.

[Lightstalker]

Also, gifting a unit to a city-state ports the unit across the map.

Weird that it works with city-states and not with civs.

The inconstancies are embarrassing.

Note, however, that this is an inconsistent expectation in the play of the game and neither a crash to desktop nor memory leak. 
While the game would be better with these types of issues resolved, the game is at least ready to be seen in public.  This is unfortunately more rare than it ought to be.

On Tiny Map, Emperor difficulty, second fastest turn speed:

Aztec and Napoleon are crippled by archipeligo maps, for instance, while Arabia, Iroquois, and America are just beating me to the punch (Haiwatha pipped me with a spaceship 2 turns before the UN vote that would have won for me).  Win some and lose some, 65 hours played so far and only a couple 'not responding' moments when I've multi-mon transitioned in a critical section (music skipping is a telltale sign).  That's so much more reliable than other releases this year that I can be patient with the equivalent of rules in need of errata.

Another unfortunate inconsistency, the UI layout is easier to use with DX9 than with the DX11 settings.  Not sure why that would be the case, though the auto-detect for my resolution and graphics settings was better for the DX11.

[Raging Turtle]

So I start another game on a huge earth map, and it spawns me as Germany right around where New York city should be.  I have Hiawatha to the north of me, but he got boned with a shitty Arctic spawn and is stuck with one city.  Gandhi, however, spawned down in Mexico, and he's already founded Mumbai in Florida.  I can see that the little bastard has designs on Texas, which I know I'll need later in the game for its sweet, sweet oil.

I bide my time, whoop as many barb encampments as I can, and send my 12 brute horde against the diapered one.  2000 BC and North America is basically mine, but I'll leave Hiawatha alone.  For now.

Question since I don't have the game - Do resources always spawn in their historical location on Earth maps?  Or can you toggle that?

It also sounds like the AI is horrible at anything naval, as in every other version of Civ.  Oh well, I guess I did always prefer Pangea anyway... 

[Ingmar]

On the one Earth game I played so far, neither resources nor country locations were historical.

[Tannhauser]

In my limited experience, naval AI is defensive.  The Persian Navy liked for me to move in and bombard a city, then they'd call up destroyer's and ironclads(!) to box me in while land based artillery blasted away.  Haven't seen much from them offensively but they do enjoy sending out transports to their doom.

I think it's an improvement from Civ IV but like I said, limited experience.

[Merusk]

On the one Earth game I played so far, neither resources nor country locations were historical.

Yeah, that was the biggest irritant to me. The whole point of the Earth maps is predictability of enemy locations and resources.  If you randomize both you're just playing on a really shitty continents map.  America in particular (north and south), I'm looking at you.  Hello West Coast is useless due to Mountains and Desert with no resources and room only for 1 poor city.

[Ingmar]

Stockholm was taking up the whole west coast in my game anyway. 

Mind you I'm not sure I care that much about the historicity of the maps given that America could be there in 4000 BC.

[Strazos]

First game...was doing well...sniped the Aztecs early because they were getting too close and block some resources. Wipe them and a city-state that folks are annoyed with, expand throughout...and Rome walks in with heavy infantry. My Hiawatha are...not that heavily armed.


What sort of strats do people use? I just pump workers and auto-improve, and sort of go up the research and building lines haphazardly. I figure you need to get just about everything anyway.

[Muffled]

You do need all the techs eventually, but there are some that are VERY worth rushing toward.  Swordsmen or hosemen early, any other key military tech (knights, artillery, PANZERS JA), various techs for specific wonders you want to beat everyone else to.  Try to set some goals and work towards them as quickly as you can, then fill in the other stuff later.

As for auto-improve on workers, that shit will gimp your cities all to hell.  Figure out what you want a city to be focused on based on the terrain and build improvements with an eye toward that, keeping a positive food balance at each step if possible.

As for Roman legions: buy him off until you hit medieval tech.   

[Nissl]

Playing on King/Large with a few extra civs and less city states and finding it more satisfying.  While I dislike the concept of playing against a rigged deck, in this game I'm realizing that AI cheating allows it to produce and grow at a rate approximating a decent player.  Like other people have pointed out the AI likes workers and trading posts *way* too much too early in the game.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned... I think horsemen are too good for their build cost, especially against cities, at least in the early game.  3x fresh horsemen unimpeded can blitz a capital and a neighboring major city in 4-5 turns with no losses  - they can move in and attack from outside city range, they can get ready to attack a second city on the same turn they capture a city, they fortify after attacking in a turn, virtually every unit levels up at some point during the attack and gets a bonus heal if needed.  I've done this to about 8 empires straight now.  Speedcap 2 cities, make ridiculous peace deal and allow your happiness and units to recover, speedcap and raze last crummy holdings.

People keep talking about setting up catapults and other early siege equipment and I'm not sure why they'd bother.  I drag the catapult off the back of my army every time I try to use one.

[kildorn]

Playing on King/Large with a few extra civs and less city states and finding it more satisfying.  While I dislike the concept of playing against a rigged deck, in this game I'm realizing that AI cheating allows it to produce and grow at a rate approximating a decent player.

One more thing I haven't seen mentioned... I think horsemen are too good for their build cost, especially against cities, at least in the early game.  3x fresh horsemen unimpeded can blitz a capital and another major city in 4 turns (if they're reasonably close) with no losses  - they can move in and attack from outside city range, they can get ready to attack a second city on the same turn they capture a city, they fortify after attacking in a turn, virtually every unit levels up at some point during the attack and gets a bonus heal if needed.  I've done this to about 8 empires straight now.  Speedcap 2 cities, make ridiculous peace deal and allow your happiness and units to recover, speedcap and raze last crummy holdings.

People keep talking about setting up catapults and other early siege equipment and I'm not sure why they'd bother.  I drag the catapult off the back of my army every time I try to use one.

Cav are hilariously strong in cities compared to infantry. Not sure why. I actually had a situation where my spearmen couldn't hurt a city state, they'd get wiped out every time they tried to hit it, even though two cats had reduced it to nothing. So I had to run some cav over just to cap the city.

It's even funnier with whatever civ gets replacement knights with a bonus against cities.

[Muffled]

Spear units are very weak for their tech level in absolute terms, they're only beastly against horses because of the double strength bonus they get against mounted.  Hence, very poor city takers.  Combat strength imbalance seems to scale down the chance of damage against the stronger unit very quickly, so even a 2 HP city with high strength could very well be suicide for lower strength units.

Horsemen are a bit OP, I would agree.  The horse resource is so abundant that controlling enough of it to make a full army, unlike aluminum or uranium, is trivial.

I actually had a situation where my spearmen couldn't hurt a city state, they'd get wiped out every time they tried to hit it, even though two cats had reduced it to nothing. So I had to run some cav over just to cap the city.

This has been said before, I think, and you may already know, but unless you customized the game and set it to generate a new random seed on every load, you'll get exactly the same combat outcomes every time if you're loading and replaying a fight, hoping to get lucky.

[rk47]

First game...was doing well...sniped the Aztecs early because they were getting too close and block some resources. Wipe them and a city-state that folks are annoyed with, expand throughout...and Rome walks in with heavy infantry. My Hiawatha are...not that heavily armed.


What sort of strats do people use? I just pump workers and auto-improve, and sort of go up the research and building lines haphazardly. I figure you need to get just about everything anyway.

Umm. Do not auto improve. Generally save rivers for farms and regular grasslands peppered with trading posts for gold If the hill is forested, don't cut it down, lumberjack instead. When facing tougher units, it'll pay to be smart in unit placement. Put them on rough terrains or behind rivers with archer / city behind them for additional bombardment. Doing this will cut down their advantage pretty quickly, but beware of Japan's unique ability which is imbalanced.

As for peaceful expansion vs aggresive there's pros and cons to it, but keep in mind Horsemen are overpowered till the nerf the movement down to 3. Why is this so? Spearmen cannot catch up to them. And the AI isn't garrisoning Spearmen in cities, preferring to walk around with 2 warriors and 1 archer pillaging some barbarian camps. These low tier units cannot even swarm horsemen because of the movement point advantage.

Expansion rule of thumb: You cannot just plop your city in a fertile land and expect to survive the early game. Check for luxury resources and guide your techs to make use of these things. If you see marble, go Masonry research. If you see sugars or spices, Pottery first, then Calendars. Happiness limits how much expanding you can do. If your happiness drops below 0, you'll lose productivity. Duplicate luxuries are useful for trades with other Civ, but even if they have no spare luxuries, sometimes you can just ask for gold. Use accumulated gold to ally with city states, for 500 gold you'll get a share of their luxury resources on top of culture, food or a random military unit depending on their type. Don't conquer City states too early, they're a big help early on.

For diplomacy games, I'm fine with trades, but right after Writing then Philosophy tech research, you start doing research pacts. These are random tech gains after 20 or so turns. Problem is, both sides need 250 gold to start. Try to keep 1-2 going on to quicken the tech gains. Keep in mind the more advanced you are, the higher the chance  you might get higher tech for a nice jump. If the AI lack around 20-30 gold, be a chump and lend him. I gave Suleiman 52 gold and he agreed to pay me back at 2 gold per turn to trigger Research Pact. I lose out a bit, but the techs are good gains. You can also scam the AI by selling a bunch of resources for a big lump sum, then declaring war next turn to break the deal. I consider that a little cheating ,but it'll ruin your trade reputation anyway, so you'll never get a decent 1 for 1 trade deals anymore.

[Nissl]

Basic early game pointers:

For a city to be worth settling, you want to focus on luxuries, either in the core hex or the next row of adjoining tiles so you can buy them quickly.  If you settle a city away from luxuries it needs to be because you have a clear plan for it as a science (jungle/mountain), production, gold, etc. city.  Rivers are really great, grassland vs. drier is important, and you always want ~3-4 hills for strong endgame production.  If you plan to expand, you want one harbor city by ~500 at the latest.  The location suggester AI (yellow marks) usually suggests pretty optimal locations and I've actually sometimes regretted overruling it.

I like the start build order scout (ruins are too good), worker, war, settler (get mining and chop rush the settler so it doesn't cost you growth).

Pump about 3 workers at the beginning of the game.  Eventually you will want to have 4-5 workers out as you manage your empire.  As a rule of thumb one worker can usually cover a little more than 2 mature cities.  Do not turn on auto-improve.  Don't be afraid to delete the worker and get 20 gold if you have nothing to do with them, they are cheap to build again later.  (Capping workers is a nice way to make a little extra $$ in wars, by the way.)

Focus on farms early, then eventually convert non-river tiles to trading posts to curb your city's growth if needed.

Tech choices always come down to science/military/culture/economy.  Get ahead in areas that are part of your gameplan and build related wonders.

Get horses early, make sure you expose them before you send your very important second settler.  Getting out 2-3 horsemen and a couple of archers is very strong at this point and possibly a little broken.  Even if you don't want to expand it's a great way to play defense.

Social policies... again, pick the tree consistent with your gameplan.  Science, military, expansion, and economy all play well together in this version, which I think is a shift from Civ IV and perhaps reflects the removal of religion as a culture mechanic. I haven't tried the culture or diplomacy routes so I can't comment on those.  

If possible, save up 750 and buy off a maritime city state early, your population will explode.  The other city states are nice as well though.  Try to find 3-4 city states early so you have a choice and make sure you get one with a lot of luxuries that you don't have.

A good cheap early army is 3x horsemen, 2x archer, 1x swordsman (for those pesky spearmen the AI is so fond of).  I always focus the spearmen with an archer/sword rush, after which the horsemen can easily clobber an entire empire.

[Koyasha]

Also, do away with Universal Happiness. They screwed themselves with that one. I cannot for one imagine why anyone thinks it makes goddamn sense for everyone in Washington DC to be cheering on the streets when Hawaii built a theater. Individual cities shd have their own happiness rating. Not this retarded aggregate empire whereby Nazi Germany would be crying buckets of unhappiness due to 'overcrowding' after they occupied the whole France in the first few months of WW2, thereby forcing Hitler to employ Gas Chambers (raze in Civ V) to keep happiness up.

I don't much care for empire-wide happiness either, but at least it's better than having happiness and sickness, I never liked that sickness thing.

On the other hand, the one resource I really wish would be empire-wide is food.  Really, transporting food should, I think, have been a priority to add to the game at this point.  One of the things I always found annoying about Civ 4 is that I could have this one city producing way more food than it needed, but be in a terrible place to do almost anything else.  Meanwhile another city was in a great place for massive production but had no way of producing enough food to work all that.  The same thing is happening to me already in this game, and it would be so much more logical to be able to set up food transfer routes.  City X ships Y food to City Z per turn, problem solved.  Or just plain 'empire produces X food, choose which cities grow and which stagnate'.

[bhodi]

A quick tip for placing cities, the AI suggests are definitely good, but if you are looking for a quick way to eyeball, turn on the 2d map and set the overlay to resources. You get pretty green/yellow squares indicating where you should dump your cities!

Also, I agree with the autobuild worker thing. Don't do this. It sucks. The AI sucks. Also, the AI suggests you build way, way more workers than you need. One worker per 2 cities is sufficient, with possibly a single extra worker (3rd at 3 cities, 4th at 5)

[Merusk]

I'd agree that transportation of food should be in, but only after a certain tech level.  Food wasn't shipped around from city to city untill quick, efficient transport that didn't allow spoilage happened. So it would be a tech for refrigeration, at which point it becomes moot how much food a city has because you're more concerned about production than growing new cities.

[Pezzle]

I'd agree that transportation of food should be in, but only after a certain tech level.  Food wasn't shipped around from city to city untill quick, efficient transport that didn't allow spoilage happened. So it would be a tech for refrigeration, at which point it becomes moot how much food a city has because you're more concerned about production than growing new cities.

The Roman Empire would disagree with you. 

It is perfectly reasonable to make food transport available early.  If you want the realism start it off not so efficient and have it get better as techs/eras are achieved.  Assuming that is reasonably possible.

[Sheepherder]

There's a reason that Rome collapsed, you know, and it's not solely the barbarians.

[Teleku]

Pezzle is right.  The reasons the Romans managed to conquer as much as they did is mostly because of the crazy logistics network they setup.  That was the reason their Legions did so good, and why the empire flourished.  All other things after that were only secondary to their success.  They used logistics and tactics in battle that weren't imitated again until almost modern times.  This is a fairly impressive book on the subject if you ever get the chance to read it:

http://www.amazon.com/Logistics-Columbia-Studies-Classical-Tradition/dp/9004112715

[Tannhauser]

Ok, ok logistics and tactics.  But otherwise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso&feature=related

[Sheepherder]

Teleku, that book leaves off about the time the utter collapse of Rome, culminating in it being sacked by mercenaries and levies from the Germanic provinces, who desert because the senate cannot maintain the upkeep (pay and rations) of the legions while subsidizing food in the capital any more.

EDIT: Collapse began earlier than I believed.

EDIT2:  There was also the smallpox epidemics, the collapse of the Roman economy due to devaluation of coinage, the failure of the legions against German raiding, and the cease of trade across the empire owing to massive increases in banditry.

[Pezzle]

The point is that ancient people were capable of transporting foodstuffs in large enough quantity.  Obviously they were.  The proposed food change could be available fairly early.  Yes, Rome fell eventually.  Can you build an empire to stand the test of time?

[Sheepherder]

No, the point is that Rome was founded upon constant outward expansion, and the subsequent plundering and taxation of conquered provinces.  Within 100 years of the defeat of the legions in Germany the empire flopped over and died.  Once the money dried up the entire thing collapsed because the transportation of goods across the empire was too expensive without massive subsidy by the senate.

As a game mechanic, it would add nothing except another way for the AI to annihilate itself.

[Pezzle]

Wrong again!  Merusk proposed food transportation should not be available in Civ 5 until refrigeration because food was not shipped around until then.  The Romans, among others, did it well before then.  Being able to afford it after a few hundred years or how long they lasted after such and such is not the point.  Adding a cost for attaching your city to such a distribution network would be trivial, much of the game is the resource balancing act.  It is a perfect fit for a tech or structure.   

[Tannhauser]

Has anyone had a game where a resource didn't spawn?  Not a single coal spawned on my map.

[Pezzle]

I have seen some EXCEEDINGLY rare but never had a game where a resource did not spawn. 

Another feature or tweak I thought up.  My chariot archer has become a tank before I even had chivalry.  Negative oil.  Some kind of limiter seems appropriate.