Adding Uberness to MMOs

[Lantyssa]

Since the vast majority of people are going to be in level-equivalent gear, and the content of that level is designed for people in their level-equivalent gear, it's already factored into the system.

Again, you only see a power differential when compariing people at different levels.  In a PvP game that means people won't have fun.  In a PvE game it's a pointless comparison because you need to compare the player to the content, not the player to other players.

Still zero sum.

[gryeyes]

I seem to recall my max level epiced out character stomping mud holes in other max level characters. Likewise my equally well geared friends being able to defeat PVE content that not many had the ability to. Whether this large of a discrepancy in relative power has been removed for WoTLK I can assure you it existed for the first 3 years of WoW.

[Venkman]

Gear tiers are another type of leveling. Yes, if all else is equal (including player skill), gear can and is the determinant.

Howevr, the probability of gear being that determinant is far more rare though, when compared to levels/abilities, and the use of VoIP. This is because the time-to-gear in the post-cap game is much longer than the time-to-level thay preceded the cap. It bascially takes a lot longet for people to catch up, and for devs to move the cap for top tier players faster than slow playeta can catch it (ie. WoW arena gear). It is for this reason that players experience other types of disparity more often.

[gryeyes]

Except of course that anybody regardless of skill or activity will eventually reach the level cap. Gear progression was (Have not played since BC) in no way shape or form guaranteed and is in fact purposely restrictive. From WoW's launch till when i quit playing in BC my guild had huge gear advantage over every single other guild in the game. A vast majority of the games population did not even have the option regardless of playtime to even attempt to progress.

So i find the concept that "progression is a zero sum game" to be pretty blatantly false. I believe there was 2 guilds on my server who were making any progress in naxx. And only the one i was in cleared it. The disparity between a player in "level appropriate" to a stacked t3 character was huge.

[Lantyssa]

I'll reiterate what I said:

"Since the vast majority of people are going to be in level-equivalent gear..."

You're a statistical outlier.  You've stated you're a statistical outlier by saying most people aren't at your level.  There will be a small fraction of any game which is above or below the content.  The bell curve shows that most are not.

You put the time in to get the gear, which as Darniaq said is another type of leveling, and are effectively not stomping over level equivalent PvE because you're now fighting below your level.  You're fighting at level + T3.  That's into Raid levels.

[gryeyes]

Ok well if you are going to equate any disparity of power for any fucking reason to mean level disparity. There isn't much i can say to refute it. You said at an equal level two level 70 players will have level equivalent gear and that would make them the same in the power metric. And that's just untrue as i have elaborated.


But that power discrepancy exists in various degrees. While i was using the most extreme discrepancy to demonstrate a point. Take ANY semi-organized raiding guild and the players in them are going to have significantly better gear than the green clad baseline level 70. And in some time periods the higher "tier" gear was not always a straight upgrade over an easier to acquire loot. So while a large leap in content curve. Your mix match set was sometimes superior to t3.

Im not really sure on the average userbase of a fairly big server. But ill venture the tentative guess that all the semi-organized raiding guilds comprise enough of the active server population to be a bit beyond a "statistical outlier".

I dont really see a game working in which no form of character progression occurred. My point was that equal leveled characters are not created equal. To dispute the "start everyone at 70 cuz its just the same!".

[Mrbloodworth]

You only become weak in comparison if people come back to your lowbie zones to rape your ass.  Similarly, you only become strong if you go back to rape other's asses.  The game is zero-sum unless you acknowledge that a significant portion of people are willing to break from the mold and go back to a lowbie zone to get their rape on, at which point you must concede that the carrot and stick has limited effect over their behavior, otherwise they would be grinding to endgame.  Either way the argument has little merit, because counter-examples abound.  Obviously then the reason people play isn't to become "more powerful".

EDIT: MrBloodworth's is like a TL;DR of my post.

Wait you are claiming that all characters have equal "power" based purely on level? Im not sure you are aware of the distinction between a noob gear character and one maxed out. Lets just say they are far from equal.

Depends on the game, not all games give you 70% of your stats from gear.

[Sky]

You only become weak in comparison if people come back to your lowbie zones to rape your ass.  Similarly, you only become strong if you go back to rape other's asses.  The game is zero-sum unless you acknowledge that a significant portion of people are willing to break from the mold and go back to a lowbie zone to get their rape on, at which point you must concede that the carrot and stick has limited effect over their behavior, otherwise they would be grinding to endgame.  Either way the argument has little merit, because counter-examples abound.  Obviously then the reason people play isn't to become "more powerful".

First, the use of the term rape is extremely offensive and you should fucking stop it.

Second, you're talking pvp. Most people play pve. In pve games, as you level up, you become less able to easily take on even-level content alone, because of the way hps and abilities scale.

[Sheepherder]

First, the use of the term rape is extremely offensive and you should fucking stop it.

Got a more descriptive word for ambushing people who have little ability to fight back for the sole purpose of enjoying their misery?

Second, you're talking pvp. Most people play pve. In pve games, as you level up, you become less able to easily take on even-level content alone, because of the way hps and abilities scale.

Umm... No.  Unless you want to call elites and bosses even levelled content.

[Lantyssa]

Steamroll, bushwhack, overpower, stomp, crush, smite, gank, destroy, obliterate, curbstomp, butt kicking, ...

Hold on and I'll get a thesaurus to look up more.

[Ratman_tf]

I prefer monkeystomp.

[Sky]

Gank is the term we always used in UO days. I'd call it being a douchebag, but that might show my bias.