Guitar thread

[stray]

I don't know that I'll ever be satisfied with my knowledge /or/ ability :)

Heh. Well I need another guitar player to really sound like I want.

Think Iron Maiden... except the other guitar player doing all the good work.   Still know that Randy Rhoads-alike-asshole?

[Sky]

No, you don't want to know that guy. My band was bad news and he was a problem for us.

I agree with you in a different way about second guitarists. Many of my early influences when we were in metal were dual guitar bands, Priest, Maiden, Mercyful Fate, Metallica, etc. And I love the way bands like the Allmans use harmony runs. I also like having other talented people to bounce song ideas around, I'm horrid at fleshing out my own ideas, but if I have someone to write with I can really be voluminous. We had two strong writers and two weak writers in the band, but everyone wrote something and for the most part had independence to write their own parts unless it was some concept or layered idea. I do miss that part a lot.

Listening to Mastadon right now, another good example of a dual guitar band. (Even if it makes me want to play drums more than guitar)

[stray]

Well, Metallica is actually more of what I'm talking about. I know Hetfield does leads occasionally, but he's more of the riff guy and songwriter. I don't really think they're Maiden like? If I could be Maiden-like though, I would. I told you before that I liked that band Television a lot? Yeah, they're pretty much dueling guitars, but punk (albeit, skilled punks).

Mastodon's cool.. They're just a bit sludgy for me.

Speaking of newer metal bands, I said in that Music thread that I was listening to Emo metal shit. I really don't know what us to call it. Haha.. But really, some of these bands have talent. The guys in Avenged Sevenfold play off each other well. link. Same with Bullet for My Valentine (not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a cool solo imo). I'm sort of surprised that there's some pretty good guitar players coming from left field.. They play better than what passes off as metal these days (FM Radio metal, I mean).

[Sky]

If you go to the wolfgang's vault site I posted in the music thread, there's a '78 Guy and Wells show where they play The Thrill is Gone (and the opening jam number) with a similar active bass line to the way I play it :)

[stray]

I searched and think I found the right show/track, but I have to register.   Will look around there later though. Looks like a unique site.


I don't have much experience playing bass in blues.. What do you mean by active? I sort of just play typical/not very inventive blues walks on bass. Throw in a fill here and there. Are you telling me there's something better?  

[Sky]

http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/buddy-guy-and-junior-wells-blues-band/ Well worth the registration, if you browse their full artist list, it's amazing. Just looking at the B list, it's everyone from Bad Brains to the Backstreet Boys. Free streaming and cheap mp3 albums. edit = ok, looking at the artists I just mentioned, they don't have concerts for all the artists they list, woops.

The Jan 9th show, first two tracks. Especially the first one. You will almost never hear a bass player like that in a blues setting, or even a rock setting. Too many guitarists try and propagate the theory that a bass line should just be the root and the guitar should have all the fun.

The book I referenced earlier about composition mentions the rock composition method and gave an 8 measure example of rock bass, all 8th note root playing.  

Honestly, though...my blues has a strong funk streak to it. Son Seals, Luther Alison, Albert King with Stax. I like a funky blues or a nice slow minor blues, with a little traditional stuff thrown in...mostly to be able to mesh with other players.

[Righ]

Heh. Well I need another guitar player to really sound like I want.

Pfft. You just need a stand.

[stray]

Lol, he ain't got shit on Nitro!  

[stray]

http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/buddy-guy-and-junior-wells-blues-band/ Well worth the registration, if you browse their full artist list, it's amazing. Just looking at the B list, it's everyone from Bad Brains to the Backstreet Boys. Free streaming and cheap mp3 albums. edit = ok, looking at the artists I just mentioned, they don't have concerts for all the artists they list, woops.

The Jan 9th show, first two tracks. Especially the first one. You will almost never hear a bass player like that in a blues setting, or even a rock setting. Too many guitarists try and propagate the theory that a bass line should just be the root and the guitar should have all the fun.

The book I referenced earlier about composition mentions the rock composition method and gave an 8 measure example of rock bass, all 8th note root playing.  

Honestly, though...my blues has a strong funk streak to it. Son Seals, Luther Alison, Albert King with Stax. I like a funky blues or a nice slow minor blues, with a little traditional stuff thrown in...mostly to be able to mesh with other players.

Grr, still haven't registered.. I'll check it out.

Well, I sort agree that guitar shouldn't have all the fun, but then, it's good for blues to have some anchors. Iif bass players can't have fun just getting a groove, then they should probably be playing a guitar. I'm sure this guy is cool though.. not trying to hate ;)

That said, I don't necessarily like boring, formulaic bass lines either. I like the kind of bass playing that both drives and provides the melody to boot. There's so many badass players, but how many are worth humming to? Or can even be hummed to? I mean in general. It's kind of hard to be melodic in straight blues playing imo. But as for hummable guys, James Jamerson is the king imo. I've probably said before that Inner City Blues is my favorite bassline from him, but from what I know, it came out of Gaye watching Jamerson jam around.. So credit goes to Gaye to just limiting it to that main line, I guess. But I think he sort of was "active", I guess? Just not in a "showcasing"/jammy kind of way. More like he was active as a songwriter.. A lot of the principle artists of motown built songs out of his melodies and jamming. Which is pretty remarkable for a bass player. Usually bass players move around and underneath existing melodies. So I would call him the most active bass player ever, considering how many songs he was behind.

[edit]

I feel like buying a bass now. Haven't had one in a long time.

[Miguel]

I feel like buying a bass now. Haven't had one in a long time.

I'm right there with you. 

I've played bass (off and on) for the past 20 years, and I sold most of my axes when I had to move.  Right now I have an Ibanez 5 string and an old Peavey Foundation from the late 80's.

I love the Ibanez, but the string spacing is quite narrow (even for a 5 string), so it's not as comfortable for me to just play.  Sounds great recorded however.

I've been looking to pick up a 4-string practice bass, and here's what I've found so far:

1) I really want a Fender American Jazz....they go for $1200 or so (see previous post of my current favorite, the Geddy Lee Jazz).
2) There's a guy on EBay that sells Fender Jazz bass kits for about $700....all genuine Fender American parts.  About half the cost but you only get a box of parts you have to assemble yourself (although everything is pre-finished at the Fender factory).
3) I also found Rondo Music, importers of Chinese Jazz Bass clones from SX Instruments.  Alder bodies, maple necks: from all of the reviews I have read on the net, these are really nice, despite the rock bottom prices.  I am actually considering buying two of them and keeping the second just for parts!

My Peavey Foundation is actually pretty nice...but the stock pickups are shit and there's no direct replacements (they are soapbar-type of a very odd size), and getting replacements and redoing a pickguard to cover up the existing holes would cost more than just getting a beater SX.

[stray]

I've heard of Rondo.. I wished I had jumped on that a little earlier. I remember a couple of years ago they were doing nice LP clones, but I think Gibson has required other companies to not directly copy the LP shape these days.


I had a Jazz for awhile, but I think I prefer just a plain old P-Bass now. Hell, I'd do with a cheap model. Any bass would be nice. I'm not too picky about them like I am guitars, where I'm downright OCD. I just require a good neck.. I'm usually weary of anything too cheap because it's hit or miss there, but I heard the Rondo models are fine.

[Nebu]

I had a Jazz for awhile, but I think I prefer just a plain old P-Bass now. Hell, I'd do with a cheap model. Any bass would be nice. I'm not too picky about them like I am guitars, where I'm downright OCD. I just require a good neck.. I'm usually weary of anything too cheap because it's hit or miss there, but I heard the Rondo models are fine.

I definately prefer my precision to my jazz.  I'm starting to think that I should eBay my Jazz because I rarely pick it up any more.  Maybe it's time to buy that alembic I've been looking at.

Necks are very much the player's preference.  If I could get precision tone out of an Ibanez, I would have sold my precision for an Ibanez a long time ago.  My hands just love Ibanez and Rick necks.   

[Sky]

I haven't actually used a lot of basses. When I test drove basses after mine was stolen, it was almost twenty years ago now, heh. So I don't remember my preferences, other than I bought the Edwards for the neck. Iirc, the neck is between a jazz and precision. That's still my bass. My first bass was some kind of old hock shop Peavey, I think it may have been a t-20, massive slab of a body. Between the two I had a loaner Rickenbacker that I FRIGGIN LOVED but didn't have enough upper register for our music (there were parts I had written for fingerpicked guitar that I emulated high on the neck when the guitarist took a solo).

I wish I had more time to get back into the bass, it's a wicked fun instrument to play. But I barely have time to play guitar!

[Nebu]

I wish I had more time to get back into the bass, it's a wicked fun instrument to play. But I barely have time to play guitar!

If you sucked at guitar like I do, you'd be playing your bass more. 

You've also given me Rick fever.  I really love those bases, but the double truss necks could sometimes be high maintenence. 

[Miguel]

I definately prefer my precision to my jazz.

What is it that you prefer?  The playability?  The tone? The look?

I really like aggressive, growly bass tones, and the more aggressive bass tones I have heard all come from Jazzes....here's two examples:

http://www.lizzydaymont.com/sounds/Bass-Drums2.mp3
http://www.danatkinson.net/audio/sx_upgrade.mp3

When I think of P-bass tone, I think less growl, more fat lows and highs - a woodier, more high-fi tone:

http://www.lakland.com/multimedia/audio/glaub/10%20glaub_hardrock_rounds.mp3

Anyone got some good examples of P-bass and J-bass tones?

[Sky]

P-bass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqxQmAbTBc (my triplet practice song when I was in the band, play this about 10 times in a row, or for a few minutes after your hand melts, can't believe Harris plays it with two fingers!)

J-bass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1lWK4PvIAw

Actually, those guys have very similar live sounds, very punchy and crisp but with good low end. SO I dunno, just posting cool stuff for fun!

[stray]

I had a Jazz for awhile, but I think I prefer just a plain old P-Bass now. Hell, I'd do with a cheap model. Any bass would be nice. I'm not too picky about them like I am guitars, where I'm downright OCD. I just require a good neck.. I'm usually weary of anything too cheap because it's hit or miss there, but I heard the Rondo models are fine.

I definately prefer my precision to my jazz.  I'm starting to think that I should eBay my Jazz because I rarely pick it up any more.  Maybe it's time to buy that alembic I've been looking at.

Necks are very much the player's preference.  If I could get precision tone out of an Ibanez, I would have sold my precision for an Ibanez a long time ago.  My hands just love Ibanez and Rick necks.  

See, I don't even mean that when I say I require a good neck!  

I mean, all basses are fine with me, so long as the neck is sturdy. That's the only thing that sucks about cheap basses, although there are some decent ones. The reason why I like the P-bass though is that it's no frills, simple controls, and I like the look I guess. Plain white with black pickguard.. that's always been a sweet looking instrument, simple as it is. If there's anything else I'd prefer on the neck, I like a worn down or sanded feel.

Agreed on Steve Harris.. Umm, I like the Queen bassist. Hell, early Police. Clash.. They're all pretty similar in a way.. like classic P-Bass sounds there, albeit different genres of course.

[stray]

Jason Becker. Never heard of him before. I hate shredder albums, but I'm blown away. I was pointed to a Marty Friedman album with him, but it's Becker that's catching me. Just doesn't seem "badly" wanky to me at all... Cool melodies, thrashy.. and wanky in a way that's just cooler than everyone else.

I feel bad for the guy. He made that album above when he was only 17! He barely was in the scene and ended up getting Lou Gehrigs disease. I'm downloading tracks to listen to, but it sucks.. I should buy his shit. I read an interview where he just came off all cynical.. Like the interviewer asked him a question: "Your listed as one of the greatest guitarists of all time. How do you feel about that?"

"I think it's sweet, but I don't sell shit. I can't perform, so the records are the only way for income, but no one buys the shit."

[stray]

I have a new word for what constitutes a great guitarist. "Belligerent".   Or rather, belligerent with chops.

There's something that makes a lame guitarist lame, no matter how skilled they are: They're too "polite". Great guitarists are rude. (fuck! I love how that crowd doesn't even cheer at the end  ). Even when laying down beautiful softer tunes, they'd spaz out eventually (Diary of a Madman being a fine example). I think EVH used to be rude, but now he's just another pussy. He relied on so many belligerent gimmicks back in the day, so it makes it extra sad. Heh...

I hate to name all of the "polite" guitarists on my shitlist though. I don't think the good ones had some magical "it", or that they're just more creative. In many cases, they are not more creative. Nor are the good ones the ones "playing from their heart". I think many do.. these pussies play from their heart too. That's why the shit sucks so bad.

edit: needs a live "diary of a madman"... I'm sure it'd be extra belligerent. anyone know of a good one? randy's so much better live.

[Sky]

I disagree with what you said.

Anyway, got an amazon gift certificate from my credit card points, so mini buying spree time. Been playing some more renaissance, baroque and romance kind of stuff, thus the focus of the list:

The Francisco Tarrega Collection - Francisco is my man right now. Bach will always be my all-time favorite, but he doesn't mind me cheating on him. Comes with a CD, which is nice, fiancee tried to steal the CD, she's been loving the Tarrega pieces I've been working on.

Classical Guitar 2000 - Technique book in notation (blah). Pairing this with my flamenco book to try to  find my way through some of the technical passages when my informal technique just isn't cutting it.

The Library of Easy Classical Guitar Solos - Saw this one in B&N last week, same author of the book that got me on my current composer kick so I'm used to some of his transcription quirks. Easy refers to classical skill level, if you're not a trained classical guitarist, they ain't easy :) This one is huge and has a nice span of time covered.

Pumping Nylon in Tab - Technique book in Tab (yay!). Speaking of belligerence, I've become even more incorrigibly a 'tabtard' since reading a book on the history of guitar and seeing the old lute music written in tablature. Both have their place, I prefer a page printed with both, tab for fingering and standard for timing.

[stray]

I don't mean belligerence in the sense of "hard" or "distortion" btw. Not something so superficial. A guy ripping up on an acoustic can be belligerent. Plenty of bluesman with few skills could too. Great classical performances are full of this energy.

[edit] I wish I could put it in a clearer way. Maybe it's intangible. I don't know.. maybe there's a time to not a make a powerful statement.

What sparked off my rant though is seeing some prog players - with great skill btw - NOT DO A SINGLE FUCKING THING FOR ME. I'm trying so hard to find it, and it's not there. Maybe it's subjective, but maybe.. just maybe.. it's just for pussies. I'm a little insulted when someone tells me I'm going to hear one of the "great metal guitarists of all time", and he ends up sounding as tame as UB40.

[Raph]

I did a two hour+ concert on Metaplace. I have posted the recording of it here:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/11/01/the-sunday-concert-halloween/

It's like a 200MB file...

[Sky]

It's like a 200MB file...

Just saw Derek Trucks last night from the third row. That band is so ridiculous, Derek is some kind of musical freak. His playing is just so good and so different from the way most people approach the guitar. Kofi is also amazing, as is Mike, I don't think Mike gets enough credit because it's an 'instrumental' band. He's such an amazing soul singer. But I mostly ended up just watching the drums, once again proving I'm just a frustrated drummer :)

Local band Los Blancos opened, they're also a great band. Good to see the locals get a good gig like that. They closed with a great cover of one of my favorite Muddy tunes, Can't Be Satisfied. Picked up a couple nice chord changes to work on in open G, but it kinda sucks because I'm in full-on classical mode right now, not really been practicing anything else.

Derek plays in open E which is a foreign land to me, so I tried to absorb more his single-string legato stuff and of course his ridiculous slide technique. His right hand is a nice mishmash of style, there's a certain latin style it.

[stray]

Well open E is just like D of course.. Just feels more old school blues-y to me for some reason.

I was introduced to open E by this Stones song. Had to learn it instantly. Fun little jam, but pretty easy to play if you're interested.

[Raph]

I posted a ZIP of the show with the songs as individual MP3s. Same linked post, it's just an edit there.

[Sky]

Splitting this from the general music thread because they don't care:

I think it's the difference between Beethoven and Mozart.  I tend to be more of a minimalist when it comes to guitar.  I love Clapton and Gilmour while Vai and Satriana give me a headache.  I appreciate Setzer, but he tries too hard to fit Rockabilly into everything.  His new album sounds like a bunch of 50's detective show themes.  Great concept, but still too much guitar work for my tastes.  For me it's the difference in balancing melodic and technical.  I prefer the melodic end. 

Eh...I don't like Vai or Satriani :) I feel Setzer is a great example of putting technical guitar playing into a melodic setting that fits in well with the music. Not sure about the forced rockabilly thing, I think he's pretty good at several genres, if anything his rockabilly was too jazzy :) I've only seen him once, but it was like watching three bands play: a big swing band, a rockabilly trio, and a gypsy jazz band.

As for balance, that's where guys like Warren Haynes shine, something you don't see in guys who don't sublimate. I don't know that Vai or Satriani know how to take a back seat and play an interesting support role for another soloist. Listening to someone like Setzer or Haynes play rhythm guitar is a lesson in itself.

We saw Gregg Allman last night with his "solo" band. They were wicked, though the guitarist was a bit too clean and jazzy for my taste and only got into his groove when he was overplaying. It really showed what guys like Haynes bring to the table with a well-rounded approach. No guitar pick, though, stingy! I let the milf in the next seat get the set list from the horn player, but the road crew and security were dickheads.

[stray]

Splitting this from the general music thread because they don't care:

I think it's the difference between Beethoven and Mozart.  I tend to be more of a minimalist when it comes to guitar.  I love Clapton and Gilmour while Vai and Satriana give me a headache.  I appreciate Setzer, but he tries too hard to fit Rockabilly into everything.  His new album sounds like a bunch of 50's detective show themes.  Great concept, but still too much guitar work for my tastes.  For me it's the difference in balancing melodic and technical.  I prefer the melodic end.  

Eh...I don't like Vai or Satriani :) I feel Setzer is a great example of putting technical guitar playing into a melodic setting that fits in well with the music. Not sure about the forced rockabilly thing, I think he's pretty good at several genres, if anything his rockabilly was too jazzy :) I've only seen him once, but it was like watching three bands play: a big swing band, a rockabilly trio, and a gypsy jazz band.

This.. Yes, he's seriously jazzy. Rockabilly does have some roots in a country swing jazziness, but he takes it into boppy jazz at times. Or like you said, gypsy jazz. That's what sets him apart though. As good as say, the Rev is, he's a joke compared to Setzer. Maybe equals on the songwriting level though..


I've come to appreciate Satriani and Vai over time. Especially Satriani.. That shredder I mentioned somewhere above though (Jason Becker.. the one living with Lou Gehrig's now?) is just amazing. He's immobile now, but still composes --- with his eyes using some computer device..

I think it's pretty cool that Vai records the guitar parts for him. But it shows how well Becker plays with his head rather than his hands. His older tunes when he could play had an appeal above the typical shredder for the same reason, I think.

[edit] You know, the other thing that makes some shredders appealing to me is that the best have a "Thrash" background in a way. You can get me to agree with you all day when it comes to the shittyness of shred albums. They're very sterile. Yet OTOH, the two kings of shred - Rhoads and EVH were thrashy. Dimebag was also very thrashy. Zakk is thrashy.. Our favorite Metallica and Maiden shit was thrashy. Blackmore - pretty thrashy. This guy Becker was thrashy. So maybe it's not that I have a problem with indulgence or virtuousic neo-classicism in shredding.. or whatever!... It's just that the typical shredder simply has no attitude, and produces his albums in a shitty elevator music kind of way.

[Sky]

Since my band started as thrash band and I was the lead guitarist, I agree. :)

We were just talking about technicality last night after the Allman show, with the guitarist who overplayed a lot. Speed and technicality are an accent. I love chocolate cake, but I don't want it for every meal every day.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, of course. Not that I really play like that anymore :)

[Nebu]

Shredding just gives me a headache.  If you want to be technical, at least do it in an interesting mode.  Steve Howe is a great example of making a technical playstyle interesting.  Again, just a personal taste thing.  One of my favorite guitar solos of all time is from Comfortably Numb.  I still get a chill every time I hear it.  All feel and tone. 

[stray]

Not that I really play like that anymore :)

Heh.. Why not? :P

I wonder if you're like my friend and just let your "shred" die off on purpose? He used to be so good at it, much better than me in highschool.. and then he just chilled.. He usually introduces me to people as the "guitar player"/wants me to play for people. I'm like wtf.. He used to walk in circles around me.


Since I'm mentioning Becker, I'll let y'all suffer through another tune. I hope that doesn't give a headache.. It's just beautiful, and shows how advanced he is. I think it's pretty great for being a modern, original piece too.

On a completely silly note, I always have these stupid thoughts of what it'd be like if I was Bill or Ted and brought Beethoven back. Who would I turn him on to? I think I'd play Jason Becker now.. I think he'd hate the majority of shred though too.  

[Sky]

It just doesn't fit the music I'm playing now. I really should practice it at least once a week just to keep the chops up.

Since I've been doing the classical thing, I've been finding a few occasions to throw in some runs as I learn the pieces a bit better and see where they fit.

[stray]

Well, smoke em if you got em.   I think it'd be easy to throw it all in together, if I knew how to both shred and played classical. Natural fit. I mean, it's not easy to me - but if I knew them both, it'd be. Err, hope I make sense...

Anyways, I'm rediscovering the appeal of classical with electrics.. You know, I never noticed it before, but I wonder why so many guitarists went the EVH route in the 80's, with the trem equipped flat fretboards etc.. Yet, they dropped Randy's name a lot -- except he played an LP. And if he used the Jackson, it doesn't seem like he incorporated trem mechanics much. He was just a fretboard guy, with a bulky guitar at that. Really different.

[Sky]

My classical playing is almost entirely on the Baby. That thing sounds better than any $250 guitar has a right to. The decay and harmonics are ridiculous. Only downside is I'm probably cramping myself a bit with the small fretboard if I ever can afford moving up to a nylon taylor (WHEN NOT IF, heh)

Been focusing on Carcassi the last couple days, and trying to get down sight reading tab while also watching the standard notation for time. Both have gotten much better in the last couple weeks, so much that I'm tempted to actually tackle sight reading standard notation itself. Though I still feel the combination of both is superior overall, standard lacks fingering info and tab lacks time notation.

Some day I'll be a decent guitar player.

[Selby]

Heh.. Why not? :P

My biggest problem is it makes me have a hard time playing slower songs ;-)  I don't care too much for slower stuff, so I don't play it.  But when I do, it's serious work for me compared to the speed\shred\thrashy styles.

[Salamok]

Any advice on a good acoustic to learn and grow with?  Heavy emphasis on comfort, playability and value.  I was thinking of getting an Ovation CC24 but $350 is about the max I want to spend.  I looked at the CC28 as well but am afraid if the body is too shallow it will sacrifice a bit too much on the sound.

Being in Austin there is also a plethora of used equipment for sale, unfortunately the wife will be buying it for me and I am not sure if she has the eye for detail that is needed when purchasing used equipment.

I did have an electric like 20 years ago but pawned it shortly after about a year, pawning that thing was a huge mistake I have never found another like it and I loved the way it sound and felt.  I sort of wanted to go with another electric (easier on the fingers) but I don't want the hassle of an amp and cords.