Well. I fixed this problem.

[Nebu]

That's a pretty grim outlook for new MMO developers.

I disagree. I think that this is a sign that indy and niche developers have a market (created in part by the popularity of WoW) to test new ideas and gameplay designs.  Unfortunately, everyone seems to be so fixated on catching the big fish that they are missing the tonnage of chum available for a small but steady profit.  Hell, if a niche idea catches on, who knows.  You could always sell the rights or even develop the concept into something more mainstream.  As Ratman pointed out while I was typing this... even Blizzard started small and built up.  

[tolakram]

All good points but remember Blizzard did have a lot of cash prior to WoW.  Hell Diablo is still selling well.  Blizzard delayed until done and the problems they had at startup were not related to bugs, per se, but scaling.

I just wished I liked WoW, then my life would be complete and I would worry no more.   

[waffel]

In Blizzard's defense, they didn't start to undertake an MMO until they already had a very nice buffer of cash built up from the Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft RTS games.

Also, those games were pretty damn good and successful, so they had a lot of the bright minds already in place before they undertook WoW. On top of that, they had a pretty damn long time to create, test, and release WoW because there was really nobody else out there to do battle with. There was no juggernaut dominating the MMORPG world and quite a few people were already starting to get burned by their previous MMOs, thus looking for the next best thing. It was almost perfect timing.

So now, while WoW has become referred to as the 'exception' by MMO players, its being referred to as the 'rule' by new developers. Warhammer simply had an identity crisis midway through development and release.

[mol]

In Blizzard's defense, they didn't start to undertake an MMO until they already had a very nice buffer of cash built up from the Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft RTS games.

Also, those games were pretty damn good and successful, so they had a lot of the bright minds already in place before they undertook WoW. On top of that, they had a pretty damn long time to create, test, and release WoW because there was really nobody else out there to do battle with. There was no juggernaut dominating the MMORPG world and quite a few people were already starting to get burned by their previous MMOs, thus looking for the next best thing. It was almost perfect timing.

So now, while WoW has become referred to as the 'exception' by MMO players, its being referred to as the 'rule' by new developers. Warhammer simply had an identity crisis midway through development and release.

WoW is so dominant that it should be practically irrelevant to new developers trying to compete. You need to design a fun, rock-solid game. Given that you will be cannibalizing WoW players and former WoW players, it needs to be as polished as WoW in it's area of focus. That is the only relevance WoW has. It's there, people play it. It's not going away. It's not being drastically changed. If your game takes 3 more months, 6 more months, 1 more year to develop, WoW will still be there and will be pretty much the same.

What really matters is the other games that are in development. The 1st one to ship that stable, polished client with fun, engaging gameplay will be the 1st one to sustain 1 million users.

Edit: As a further point, I think the most likely candidate to hit that mark is SWTOR. Blizzard, too, had never made an MMO before they launched WoW, and this allowed them to challenge a lot of the assumptions about what an MMO had to be. Bioware has created some amazingly fun games, and they have the potential to do very much the same thing with a very popular IP. But they'll probably just fuck it up.

[Venkman]

You are all correct, but unfortunately not saying anything that hasn't been accepted as axiom for four years.

WoW is unique. There's only second place for competitors, and second place is measured as 10% of #1.

The time is ripe for indies. But then, it's always ripe for indies. Has been since there's been a software industry, including paper goods from the 50s and 60s.

You want to go after WoW though, you'll need a few things:
- To map their exact launch strategy to hit all territories
- An already popular gamer-centric IP (optional: matching popular company name with an embedded audience of fans)
- 4+ years of solid development with at least a solid year of substantive end-to-end beta testing with real players
- A staff that's comprise of both development experts and those who play other games. Street smarts.
- $75mil+ minimum.
- Such strong confidence in being right you or your publisher have the patience to wait for you.

I'm not waiting for a specific game to come along. I'm waiting for an entire multination organization/alliance that has the same perfect storm of factors with a track record of being able to leverage them.

I'll play them all anyway, just because I can. But just making a good game or just having a good IP aren't anywhere near enough to be a serious WoW contender.

[Trippy]

You want to go after WoW though, you'll need a few things:
- To map their exact launch strategy to hit all territories

You don't need to hit all territories initially. WoW didn't launch in Chinese-speaking Asia until later. NA and Europe are enough for an initial launch. WoW also launched at the same time in South Korea but it never really did well there, by Blizzard standards (AFAIK it's never broken 1 million "subs" there).

[slog]

You want to go after WoW though, you'll need a few things:
- To map their exact launch strategy to hit all territories

You don't need to hit all territories initially. WoW didn't launch in Chinese-speaking Asia until later. NA and Europe are enough for an initial launch. WoW also launched at the same time in South Korea but it never really did well there, by Blizzard standards (AFAIK it's never broken 1 million "subs" there).

While this may be true, I think his point is that you are competing with WoW as it will exist when you release your game, not the WoW of 2004

[Trippy]

You want to go after WoW though, you'll need a few things:
- To map their exact launch strategy to hit all territories

You don't need to hit all territories initially. WoW didn't launch in Chinese-speaking Asia until later. NA and Europe are enough for an initial launch. WoW also launched at the same time in South Korea but it never really did well there, by Blizzard standards (AFAIK it's never broken 1 million "subs" there).

While this may be true, I think his point is that you are competing with WoW as will exists when you release your game, not the WoW of 2004

No that's not what he's saying. Otherwise the budget and development times would have to be much larger.

[slog]

More than 75 million?

[Trippy]

Yes.

[Ratman_tf]

Edit: As a further point, I think the most likely candidate to hit that mark is SWTOR. Blizzard, too, had never made an MMO before they launched WoW, and this allowed them to challenge a lot of the assumptions about what an MMO had to be. Bioware has created some amazingly fun games, and they have the potential to do very much the same thing with a very popular IP. But they'll probably just fuck it up.

Blizzard did have a ton of online experience with battle.net before WoW launched. Has Bioware done any online games at all?

[BitWarrior]

Blizzard did have a ton of online experience with battle.net before WoW launched.

Yes and no. Largely the original Battle.net team left and formed Arena.net, which you could likely say has far superior server management and content distribution technology than WoW does even today. I think that team leaving hurt Blizzard something fierce, especially recalling the incredible server downtime and problems with content distribution they've had.

[Warskull]

Blizzard did have a ton of online experience with battle.net before WoW launched.

Yes and no. Largely the original Battle.net team left and formed Arena.net, which you could likely say has far superior server management and content distribution technology than WoW does even today. I think that team leaving hurt Blizzard something fierce, especially recalling the incredible server downtime and problems with content distribution they've had.

It definitely hurt Blizzard.  Guild Wars has had probably less than 24 hours of down time since release.  Most MMOs go down once a week.  Furthermore, they manage to handle a large player base with minimal segregation.  You can pretty much run the game on dial-up too.

[Venkman]

You want to go after WoW though, you'll need a few things:
- To map their exact launch strategy to hit all territories

You don't need to hit all territories initially. WoW didn't launch in Chinese-speaking Asia until later. NA and Europe are enough for an initial launch. WoW also launched at the same time in South Korea but it never really did well there, by Blizzard standards (AFAIK it's never broken 1 million "subs" there).

While this may be true, I think his point is that you are competing with WoW as will exists when you release your game, not the WoW of 2004

No that's not what he's saying. Otherwise the budget and development times would have to be much larger.

Yes, that is what I'm saying, and why I said "$75mil +". I assumed also that everyone is aware that Blizzard didn't directly pay for the rollout in China. And I assumed everyone saw the launch "strategy" part. You don't need to hit all worldwide territories at the same time, and in fact may not want to. Their staggered launch included press release after press release that continued driving first-market awareness.

These details are important because even people in the industry don't accurately track how the growth happened nor how the critical territories and partnership/licensees(ors) helped make that happen.

[UnSub]

These details are important because even people in the industry don't accurately track how the growth happened nor how the critical territories and partnership/licensees(ors) helped make that happen.

Very true. It's like the myth that WoW succeeded as well as it did because it was polished. Polish helped, but a large number of factors helped pull WoW to where it is (the Warcraft brand, the Blizzard brand, broadband adoption hitting a decent penetration rate, a large marketing budget, a new title with playable on most PCs, et al). But it is easier for people to think of only one or two factors as being the reason why WoW blew everyone out of the water, and still does, on their subscriber figures.

[mol]

Has Bioware done any online games at all?

Bioware hasn't. As far as I understand it, though, Bioware Austin is primarily working on SWTOR, and that studio is headed by MMO veterans. Granted, they are SW:G veterans, but I remain hopeful.

[Samwise]

Thank God.  If this game had lasted another week or two I might have actually bought it. 

(I too am following the "does F13 get tired of it after the free month is up" metric of whether to bother with any given MMO.)

You're missing out on what's most likely the only time these games will ever be fun.  Regardless of not making it past the free month, I do think I got my money's worth out of both AOC and WAR.

My problem is that once I've sunk a month into the thing, I'm likely to keep on playing for a year, whether I'm enjoying it or not.

[Ashmodai]

My problem is that once I've sunk a month into the thing, I'm likely to keep on playing for a year, whether I'm enjoying it or not.

I did that once or twice, not a year, but I played several games (Vanguard the worst example, played that for 6 months or so and stopped really having fun sometime during the 2nd) quite a few months past the time when I stopped actually really wanting to play them.  When I quit, I always felt like I'd wasted a huge chunk of my life doing something that, deep down, I didn't really want to be doing, just because I had already invested X hours of my life into it and felt that it would be a waste not to continue.

I don't do that anymore. :)  You shouldn't either!

[runagate]

Do we have a new Chosen One to get excited about yet?

Starcraft Universe/Diablo Online

I'm excited about the prospects for Traveller, Riverworld, Luther Arkwright, Eternal Champion and Rim World MMOs. The fact that nobody is working on them is a bonus given the current state of the industry.

GURPS Online is going to be AWESOME!

Fuck GURPS, I want Car Wars online.  Any game where you can make a roll to see whether your wheelchair mounted LAW rocket pierces an SUVs window and repaints the interior in a team color yet unseen by Home Depot is a game I want to be a part of.

[deadlyanteater]

I think MMOs will need a huge jump in technology to really change.  To add the story and interactive nature that people desire will require a new generation of computers and software.

We really just have Co-op oblivion at this point with a very limited ability to change an in-game world.

[Nebu]

I think MMOs will need a huge jump in technology to really change.  To add the story and interactive nature that people desire will require a new generation of computers and software.

We really just have Co-op oblivion at this point with a very limited ability to change an in-game world.

I disagree. 

1) People want to have fun. 

2) If you create a good ruleset, players will forgive the look (to a degree). Personally, I'd play a pvp game with stick figures if the mechanics were good.

3) Players say that they want to affect the world, but they really just want to a) have fun and b) feel like the main character in the story.  Make players feel like the hero and they'll forget wanting to change the world. Give them worldly objectives instead.

The current engines already exist to make good games.  Designers just need to stop getting in the way of the player's ability to have fun. 

[deadlyanteater]

I think MMOs will need a huge jump in technology to really change.  To add the story and interactive nature that people desire will require a new generation of computers and software.

We really just have Co-op oblivion at this point with a very limited ability to change an in-game world.

I disagree. 

1) People want to have fun. 

2) If you create a good ruleset, players will forgive the look (to a degree). Personally, I'd play a pvp game with stick figures if the mechanics were good.

3) Players say that they want to affect the world, but they really just want to a) have fun and b) feel like the main character in the story.  Make players feel like the hero and they'll forget wanting to change the world. Give them worldly objectives instead.

The current engines already exist to make good games.  Designers just need to stop getting in the way of the player's ability to have fun. 

I'm not talking about graphics.  MMOs will change when players can really experience epic stories by BEING their class.

I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.  Think about it.  We learn to play our class on the forums, reading peoples tips and builds.  Questing now is only there to serve as a way to fill a meter.


MMOs are basically FPS Multiplayer games with strategy interjected.  Strategy being: filling your niche and tweaking your build.  You get to a top rank, tweak your build, and play.

And I'm not saying PVE is that important, it's about really making things massive and interactive so that playing WITH people is an amazing time.  That includes PVP.

[Nebu]

You said that MMO's need a jump in technology.  I disagree.  It's not technology holding back the medium, it's thinking. 

If you aren't talking about graphics, then how the hell is "technology" holding them back?

I came from an era where text games held my imagination better than most graphical MMO's.  Technology isn't what caused stagnation in the MMO industry, it's the lack of creative idea generation coupled to investment dollars all chasing the next_WoW.

[deadlyanteater]

You said that MMO's need a jump in technology.  I disagree.  It's not technology holding back the medium, it's thinking. 

If you aren't talking about graphics, then how the hell is "technology" holding them back?

I came from an era where text games held my imagination better than most graphical MMO's.  Technology isn't what caused stagnation in the MMO industry, it's the lack of creative idea generation coupled to investment dollars all chasing the next_WoW.

making them more sophisticated.  more complex code AND graphics for more complex games.

there is no room for imagination in most mmos today.  its about being the best and fucking up the other guy.

which is fine, i'm all for that.  but it could have both.

yes, and those ideas wont happen until depend better mmos.

[Slyfeind]

I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.

No, they don't. That would suck. I hate it when games try to tell me stories, especially to the extent that Final Fantasy does. That wouldn't take new technology, anyway. That's stuff we've seen in games for decades.

And I'm not saying PVE is that important, it's about really making things massive and interactive so that playing WITH people is an amazing time.  That includes PVP.

I would argue that introducing storytelling into the game would conflict with interactivity. I already have an amazing time playing with people, if the gameplay mechanics are solid and interesting. I don't want to read a bunch of stories or watch some cut scenes first. I just want to play the damn game.

[Nebu]

I would argue that introducing storytelling into the game would conflict with interactivity. I already have an amazing time playing with people, if the gameplay mechanics are solid and interesting. I don't want to read a bunch of stories or watch some cut scenes first. I just want to play the damn game.

Thank you for this.  You said it better than I could. Storytelling is fine in a single player game where you interact with the environment.  In a multiplayer game (especially one bragging about being MASSIVELY multiplayer), I want to interact with other players.   

[deadlyanteater]

I would argue that introducing storytelling into the game would conflict with interactivity. I already have an amazing time playing with people, if the gameplay mechanics are solid and interesting. I don't want to read a bunch of stories or watch some cut scenes first. I just want to play the damn game.

Thank you for this.  You said it better than I could. Storytelling is fine in a single player game where you interact with the environment.  In a multiplayer game (especially one bragging about being MASSIVELY multiplayer), I want to interact with other players.   

thats not even what im talking about.

it proves my point that people can't even hold the concept of a better MMO in their head because of things are done now.  They fall back on old ideas like "too much story = bad pvp" or whatever.

Again, it will be a long time before a company beats blizzard because the fans will have to be sick of the scope of mmos now.

[Nebu]

Then tell me what we need more technology for rather than just waiving your hands in the air.  We don't need photorealism to make a good game.  We have technology in place to make a good pvp game.  Hell, if someone would just make EvE more like Elite, I'd pay money to play it. 

[squirrel]

thats not even what im talking about.

it proves my point that people can't even hold the concept of a better MMO in their head because of things are done now.  They fall back on old ideas like "too much story = bad pvp" or whatever.

Again, it will be a long time before a company beats blizzard because the fans will have to be sick of the scope of mmos now.

Well, perhaps if you could actually describe what you're talking about we'd conceptualize it. You're essentially saying "They need to be better!" You use abstracts like "more complex code" or "interactive nature". Those words don't mean anything.

Keep in mind some very sophisticated systems have been tried:

SWG: Player built, run and managed cities. Political positions (Mayor).
AoC: 1-20 Story Driven progression, Day/Night Cycle mixing SP and MP play
Shadowbane: Resource management and control and player run destroyable cities
EvE: Fully functional capital market and economy

You can argue that these failed due to poor execution, but that's not a technology issue.

[Slayerik]

thats not even what im talking about.

it proves my point that people can't even hold the concept of a better MMO in their head because of things are done now.  They fall back on old ideas like "too much story = bad pvp" or whatever.

Again, it will be a long time before a company beats blizzard because the fans will have to be sick of the scope of mmos now.

Well, perhaps if you could actually describe what you're talking about we'd conceptualize it. You're essentially saying "They need to be better!" You use abstracts like "more complex code" or "interactive nature". Those words don't mean anything.

Reminds me of yesterday at my work (Im a desktop support tech). This hot secretary got a minor virus on her machine, but I decided to fuck with her by saying shit like...'oh fuck, now I think I'm going to have to quarantine your network segment'. She was like, oh no that sounds horrible...I'm soooo sorry!

It's like in movies when the hacker always has to find a way to bypass (or backdoor) the firewall. Good stuff.

[EWSpider]

Then tell me what we need more technology for rather than just waiving your hands in the air.  We don't need photorealism to make a good game.  We have technology in place to make a good pvp game.  Hell, if someone would just make EvE more like Elite, I'd pay money to play it. 

Give me the swords and sorcery version of Eve and I'd never look at another game again.

[deadlyanteater]

thats not even what im talking about.

it proves my point that people can't even hold the concept of a better MMO in their head because of things are done now.  They fall back on old ideas like "too much story = bad pvp" or whatever.

Again, it will be a long time before a company beats blizzard because the fans will have to be sick of the scope of mmos now.

Well, perhaps if you could actually describe what you're talking about we'd conceptualize it. You're essentially saying "They need to be better!" You use abstracts like "more complex code" or "interactive nature". Those words don't mean anything.

Reminds me of yesterday at my work (Im a desktop support tech). This hot secretary got a minor virus on her machine, but I decided to fuck with her by saying shit like...'oh fuck, now I think I'm going to have to quarantine your network segment'. She was like, oh no that sounds horrible...I'm soooo sorry!

It's like in movies when the hacker always has to find a way to bypass (or backdoor) the firewall. Good stuff.

I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.  Think about it.  We learn to play our class on the forums, reading peoples tips and builds.  Questing now is only there to serve as a way to fill a meter.


MMOs are basically FPS Multiplayer games with strategy interjected.  Strategy being: filling your niche and tweaking your build.  You get to a top rank, tweak your build, and play.

L2R

[squirrel]

I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.  Think about it.  We learn to play our class on the forums, reading peoples tips and builds.  Questing now is only there to serve as a way to fill a meter.


MMOs are basically FPS Multiplayer games with strategy interjected.  Strategy being: filling your niche and tweaking your build.  You get to a top rank, tweak your build, and play.

Ah ok. So you think all MMOG's should be like Final Fantasy. Because that's the only fucking salient point in the above. Unless you consider vague abstracts like "meaningful progressions" and "subtle ways" salient. Which they're not. You act like you've posted some revelation - you haven't, in fact you haven't even added much to an old complaint. Learn to write new fish.

[khaine]

Quick , someone skateboard around the Gibson

[deadlyanteater]

I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.  Think about it.  We learn to play our class on the forums, reading peoples tips and builds.  Questing now is only there to serve as a way to fill a meter.


MMOs are basically FPS Multiplayer games with strategy interjected.  Strategy being: filling your niche and tweaking your build.  You get to a top rank, tweak your build, and play.

Ah ok. So you think all MMOG's should be like Final Fantasy. Because that's the only fucking salient point in the above. Unless you consider vague abstracts like "meaningful progressions" and "subtle ways" salient. Which they're not. You act like you've posted some revelation - you haven't, in fact you haven't even added much to an old complaint. Learn to write new fish.

No, I'm saying MMOs should have more than just grinds with 3 trees to spec in.  I used FF as an example everybody knows for story telling, not that that should be the end all, be all of the game, but a part of the whole.

Stay with me now because I know i'm using ideas that go beyond spamming worthless shit on the forums or crying about how you can't level fast enough.