When daddy gets his permit, he'll drive me to school!!

[Polysorbate80]

Now, do you actually want to talk about people that spend time with their kids or not, and if that has an effect on their lives? That people who spend time with their kids would make them less likely to end up in the news?

Yes, it has an effect on their lives.  Is it the right effect?  Who fucking knows, until the kids are there.

I have two children, a 5-year old girl and a 2-month old son.  The boy is already very different from his sister.  What's the right way to raise him?  I dunno yet, other than to play it by ear as it goes along.

Anecdotal bullshit regarding "time spent with kids":  My older brother (firstborn son) and younger sister (the baby of the family) got a *lot* more attention from my parents than I did, and frankly it had a bad effect on them.  My brother is convinced of his infallibility, despite all evidence to the contrary (my wife's older brother is very similar in this regard).  My sister is, well, don't get me started.

My dad recently tried to apologize to me for "ignoring" me too much during my childhood.  I told him not to feel bad at all, because it turned out to have been the best situation for me.  I didn't want or *need* that kind of time and attention.

Can I extrapolate from that and say it's always better to ignore your children, then?  No.  Yes.  Maybe.  I don't freakin' know.  They're all different, and they don't have manufacturer's instruction booklets for each model.

So stuff your blanket theories back in your cakehole.

[Sky]

I'd also like to add that just because people don't have kids of their own doesn't mean they have no experience with raising children. My ex had a 2 and 4 yr old, and she had royally fucked them up. I stepped in and fixed a lot of the problems (in spite of her), killed me having to leave her because I missed the kids so much, but she was something of a mechabitch.

So how about you drop the entire idea that folks without kids have no idea about raising kids, eh?

SRS BZNZ

[Oz]

equate anything related to a dog to a kid as any means of valid comparison

what the hell i'll jump in.  First off, I AM NOT PICKING A SIDE BETWEEN YOU TWO.  you both have good and bad points.  I have a daughter and i have a unique perspective of being a behavioral scientist.  

1.  it is surprising how similiar dogs are to kids...it freaks me out sometimes.  Main difference i see so far is my daughter has: faster learning, language (i.e. better communication), and slightly more complex paradigms.
2.  It seems to me that actions are more important then how much time you spend. (i.e. when they little and they did something wrong did you just say no, or did you provide them with the information for WHY is was wrong, that type of shit)

You can't protect your children from life, but you can raise them and educate them in such a way that they can be smart about it.

My parents never told me not to have sex, party, etc.  they said "we'd rather you didn't, but we're not dumb.  Be smart about it:  wear condom, don't drink and drive, etc."  It seems to have helped me survive 14-25...

Edit:  from all i've read and exprienced in my job i would bet there is also a direct correlation between how much/quality of attention (read: not time, per se) you give them and how well they function.  Of course there are always exceptions (see Tween80 above), but most of the "dysfunctional kids" that make the news all seem to have parents that just don't give a fuck about what they do.

[Broughden]

I'd also like to add that just because people don't have kids of their own doesn't mean they have no experience with raising children. My ex had a 2 and 4 yr old, and she had royally fucked them up. I stepped in and fixed a lot of the problems (in spite of her), killed me having to leave her because I missed the kids so much, but she was something of a mechabitch.

So how about you drop the entire idea that folks without kids have no idea about raising kids, eh?

SRS BZNZ

Obviously you just got off lucky. Because you dont have kids so you dont know what its like man!!!!

[HaemishM]

This thread has been seriously fagged.

[Sky]

This thread has been seriously fagged.

My SRS BZNZ line was in place of a deleted paragraph of how dumb this thread got :)

[Abagadro]

Time spent is a single variable in a multi-variate system.

I have no problem with people without kids offering opinions on parenting.  What is irritating is high-horse condescension by people who have no basis to do so.

[Khaldun]

Time spent is a single variable in a multi-variate system.

I have no problem with people without kids offering opinions on parenting.  What is irritating is high-horse condescension by people who have no basis to do so.

Well, yeah, this is pretty much it. People without kids see many things that are quite true about other people's parenting. We were all kids ourselves at some point, after all. It's also not as if having a kid is indescribable, or that there is nothing about my experience that I can tell anyone else. If so, this would be true about all experience.

The simple take-away is: don't be so fucking sure you know why a 13-year old screws up. Or what you'd do about it if it happened. Or even that the way you act with a dog is precisely the way you'll act with a kid. It doesn't hurt to tone the dials down a little and to concede that when we're talking about other people, some things are mysterious.

[Cyrrex]

It probably also needs to be said that, on average, extremely undersized 12 year old males are a very horny lot, and would in general be very intrigued with the prospect of having sex with even an fairly unattractive, large breasted person of the opposite persuasion.  It's basically what they think about all day long.  It's entirely plausible that, when presented with such a scenario, all good parental influences fly right out the window and the main determining factor is whether or not he is too scared to go through with it.

[NowhereMan]

All condescension aside this thread seems to have been derailed by Paelos saying people who are shit parents stand back afterwards and go, "We didn't know!" which is a fair condemnation. People who don't try and interact with their kids are shit parents.

That's the point where people generally could have nodded, sighed about the state of the world and we could have moved on with making immature jokes. Instead we've got some bizarre slap fight about whether Broughden's qualified to judge parents, the importance of quality vs. quantity of time and a host of other bickering that will, at best, result in a denning. This thread could end up in politics and then it doesn't matter how many genes you've failed to pass on. You'll have done a bad thing so please someone find some amusing shops or make a semi-amusing remark or at least derail it somewhere nice.

[Merusk]

Hell, even average 12 year old boys are like that, not just the 'undersized' ones.  I'd have been all over anthing willing to touch my willie, although I wouldn't have had any idea what to do.  Kids these days know more than I did about sex at their age, however, and it's no surprise to me he knew what went where.

No, In this story it's more a question of wtf where were the girl's parents. Alarmingly so as the reported number of partners she's been with seems to increase daily.

I could expound on the rest of the argument but it's just  's ville. I can't even begin to figure out wtf happened in here.

[DraconianOne]

They're all different, and they don't have manufacturer's instruction booklets for each model.

I beg to differ:

[Oban]

Oh wow, Haynes automobile manuals.  What an awful memory.

[Hindenburg]

They're all different, and they don't have manufacturer's instruction booklets for each model.

I beg to differ:

Loads of online resources too.

[Oz]

Loads of online resources too.

OMFG!  that was so wrong i about crapped myself laughing at work.  I'll be damned if tell anyone why...

[Baldrake]

You still havent even bothered to explain why I can spend 3 hours or more with my puppy per day, but once I have a human child I will magically see the light and choose to spend LESS time with the human child. Please do elaborate for us all why I will magically want to give less face time to my own flesh and blood than I do a fucking dog right now. Is this when Khan puts the worm in my ear and takes control?

I will waiting for your wonderful reply.

So let's pretend for a moment that this is what Abagadro actually said. I'll attempt to stick to small words and short sentences.

I have a baby at home. He wakes up around 6:30, and goes to sleep around 7:30.

I leave for work at 8:00, and get home around 5:30. I also come home for lunch for an hour. So I get about an hour with him in the morning, an hour at lunch, and a couple of hours in the evening. 4 hours a day. Obviously more on weekends.

But...

I can only do this because I live about 10 minutes from my work. If were like the average American who commutes an hour each way, here's how my day would shake out:

No time in the morning. No coming home for lunch. Around an hour in the evening before he goes to bed.

So believe it or not, it isn't because we love our kids less than you love your puppy.

I hope this answer was wonderful enough for you.

[Broughden]

If were like the average American who commutes an hour each way, here's how my day would shake out:

No time in the morning. No coming home for lunch. Around an hour in the evening before he goes to bed.

So believe it or not, it isn't because we love our kids less than you love your puppy.

I hope this answer was wonderful enough for you.

A) Wake up earlier. I dont have to be in to the office until 9:30am most days. But I wake up at 6:30am in order to walk the puppy and spend some time playing games and training her.
B) Move closer to town. There are other benefits as well. Urban renewal. Burning less fossil fuels. Smaller condos are more efficient than large suburban homes.
C) Choose NOT to have a puppy or kid unless you are willing to sacrifice certain things in your own life to make time for them. Hell its been two years since Ive played a computer game. Between getting married, moving, buying a house, fixing a house and getting a puppy and kitty on the same night...I have to spend my time on other priorities. If I hadnt had the time to devote to properly raising the dog and teaching it to behave and taking it to training classes...I wouldnt have gotten it. Same goes for having a kid.

Now in Abagadro's last post he made a reasonable point-  that time is one of only a number of factors in properly raising a child. On that I completely agree with him.
However what I cant abide are parents who complain and say..."Its hard" or "I cant find the time."  Well  A) no shit Sherlock, it is hard but you should have thought of that before you had the kid, and B) You can find the time, you just arent willing to.

[Lantyssa]

a) A sleep deprived... a more sleep deprived parent will make poor decisions in life.
b) It's not possible to get anything cheap near the centers of many cities which work for a family.  I'm trying for just me and it's not working out so well.
c) Unplanned pregnancy.

There's nuggets of wisdom in what you say, but you're so absolutist about it that it's hard to take any of it seriously.

[lamaros]

If looking after a dog properly is an epic of organization and considerable thought for you, don't (just don't) have kids.

Certainly don't have kids and a puppy at the same time!

[Abagadro]

What's funny is that it is entirely possible to spend too much time with your kid thereby stunt their emotional growth and ability to act autonomously.  But I guess we should all sell our houses in the burb (hey, what about a lawn for them to play on, huh, huh!?!?) so that we can all make some arbitrarily defined dog-time/kid-time ratio.

3 hours with a dog is not the same type of commitment as 3 hours with a kid (plus I don't actually think you spend that amount of time actively engaging with your dog, him sitting there on the floor while you do something else doesn't count, and if you actually do, you need to get a life).  Dogs don't push you every second to test the limits, throw food at you, kick you in the balls, throw tantrums, etc.  Dogs also generally want to be with you and like it when you discipline them because it energizes their pack brain. Kids not so much as you spent 90% of your time telling them what they can't do and they chafe really bad (depending upon the personality). It's also great most of the time but it's really a whole different ball game.

The comparison is just so ludicrous. I spend basically all my free time with my kid while he's awake so it's not like it is some personal insult to me. I restructured my schedule so I would have regular 3 day week-ends so I could spent longer chunks with him.  It's just really silly to equate the two in any sort of meaningful way. Kids are emotionally exhausting on multiple levels, are fully autonomous individuals that have their own ideas about how things are going to go, and take you to higher highs and lower lows than any mutt ever will (and I love my mutt). You just have to try to manage it the best you can and blaze, ham-fisted pontificating by those who haven't even tried to give it is a shot is pretty transparently ridiculous.

you're so absolutist about it that it's hard to take any of it seriously.

No one actually takes him seriously.

[DraconianOne]

A) Wake up earlier. I dont have to be in to the office until 9:30am most days. But I wake up at 6:30am in order to walk the puppy and spend some time playing games and training her.
B) Move closer to town. There are other benefits as well. Urban renewal. Burning less fossil fuels. Smaller condos are more efficient than large suburban homes.
C) Choose NOT to have a puppy or kid unless you are willing to sacrifice certain things in your own life to make time for them. Hell its been two years since Ive played a computer game. Between getting married, moving, buying a house, fixing a house and getting a puppy and kitty on the same night...I have to spend my time on other priorities. If I hadnt had the time to devote to properly raising the dog and teaching it to behave and taking it to training classes...I wouldnt have gotten it. Same goes for having a kid.

Seriously, stop talking now. You've got no fucking idea and no fucking right to judge people based on some unrealistic ideals you've got in your head based on taking on the responsibility of owning a puppy.

[apocrypha]

Jesus wept guys, why do some of you have to turn every single discussion into a personal slanging match? Stop extrapolating from your own experience alone and try looking at the bigger picture! Separate personal and political for 5 minutes. I know some of you are professionals - lawyers, police, engineers, whatever. If you're able to separate personal and professional at work (which you must be able to do or else you'd be the people at work everyone else hates and I hope that isn't the case) then do the same in political discussions.

First point: this story is from The Sun. Chances that it's true are <50%. This publication (it doesn't deserve to be called a newspaper, it's closer to a comic) is the print equivalent of Fox News in the UK, only less conscientious and respectable.

Bigger picture: yeah, teenage pregnancies happen. Always have happened, probably always will happen. What doesn't work - blaming the parents. We've had decades of media and politicians just blaming the parents. You Americans have had the farce of abstinence campaigns and, ffs, actual government sanctioned pro-abstinence programs! Worked really well hasn't it? What does work - better sex education, better education overall, better availability of free and confidential sexual health provision including free contraception. For starters.

Teenage pregnancies are tied to poverty, they're tied to self-esteem and atomisation. You want less kids to have kids? Make them feel part of society instead of alienating them from it. Make them feel they have a future beyond having kids and claiming benefits. We've got a long-running media campaign here demonising young people - hoodie-wearing, drug-taking, underage-drinking, car-stealing, graffiti-scrawling, teenage pregnancies etc. And all the blame is put on parents and teachers and it doesn't work in the slightest. It just compounds the problem and makes kids (especially poor kids, kids living on shitty estates with 80% adult unemployment) think that there's fuck all else in life.

Yeah, it's easy, VERY easy to criticise any given individual's parenting methods (and looks. Yeah let's criticise that parent because of the way she LOOKS ffs, what retarted fucking kind of argument is that?) but that does nothing to address the wider issues nor widen the debate about how to improve society. Publications like The Sun capitalise on personalising these issues and presenting them in a way that reduces them to reactionary, emotive responses, and it's useless bullshit designed to manipulate people.

edit: politics now eh? 

[Paelos]

Well you took it there. I'm not in the education = bad department myself, as a Christian. In fact, I'm quite the reverse.

Still, personal issues do seem to have taken over at this point, so it will be denned or sent to politics (at which point I'll never see it again). Before it goes, I'll say again that dogs are not people. Parents who actually have kids raise valid opinions about raising children, and yet they are not an absolute authority. The media does blow things completely out of proportion intentionally. The "we didn't know" defense is bullshit. It will always be bullshit. You know it as well as I do.

[apocrypha]

Well you took it there.

Yes, that's what I meant. When I re-read what I'd said I thought that was the case, sorry.

And I do think that it's important that people who don't have direct experience on any given issue are able to comment on the issue. Opinions are valid without personal involvement, they have to be or else the discussions are that much weaker. For example, when the opinions of only non-whites were considered valid when fighting racism then you get nowhere. The strongest anti-racist movements are the ones that bring blacks and whites together.

I don't have kids, nor do I intend to, but I am totally happy paying tax to fund education and childcare for other people's children. Everyone has a right to contribute to a debate unless their aim is to stifle that debate, imo.

[DraconianOne]

EDITED: Because unnecessarily personal.

Parents who actually have kids raise valid opinions about raising children, and yet they are not an absolute authority.

This. Even as a parent with 3 years experience, I can safely say that I'm still winging it. I have no idea how I'm going to deal with the sex issue in ~7 years time (although I'm hedging in favour of "ask your mother") and my wife and I have different views on religion (she sort of believes, I definitely don't.)

Back on topic:

Apocrypha is right - there are all sorts of factors about not only this case but about teen pregnancy in general. It's all over the news in England at the moment beecause of this case. Last night I found that the city I'm currently working in, Nottingham, has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the country and it's not just a recent thing, it's been like that for years. Studies have shown that the usual suspects of lack of sex education and information about contraception is not necessarily to blame (University of Nottingham, 2000) but that teenagers don't act on it. There have been huge government sponsored schemes and incentives to help reduce teen pregnancy here but none of them, so far, have been that effective.

Last night there was a woman interviewed who had just become a grandmother - at 33.  I'm older than her and my youngest isn't even a year old yet and she's already a grandmother. It would be nice to sit back in my comfortable middle-class smugness and say "Aha! Bad parenting is the problem here" but, in another lifetime, having worked in Liverpool with deprived kids from poor backgrounds, while it's sometimes part of the problem, it definitely isn't all there is to it.

[Oz]

What's funny is that it is entirely possible to spend too much time with your kid thereby stunt their emotional growth and ability to act autonomously. 

This is a very good point.  Early on we let our daughter have lots of alone time.  it helps them to develop imaginations and boy does she have one...

[Broughden]

Seriously, stop talking now. You've got no fucking idea and no fucking right to judge people based on some unrealistic ideals you've got in your head based on taking on the responsibility of owning a puppy.

I have every right to judge my fellow member of society. When they fail at their jobs as parents and it effects society as a whole I have every right to judge them.

When the neighbors of the boy responsible for the attack at Columbine High School say that the sound of machinery was so loud they were thinking of calling the police for a noise complaint, the garage is filled with the tools and remnants of bomb making....and yet the parents supposedly had no clue what was happening. I blame them.

When two boys, ten and thirteen years old, are able to obtain firearms for a school attack because their grandfather locks them in a glass cabinet which can be easily broken into. I blame them.

When I arrest a 15 year old boy for felony crack cocaine possession, and felony intent to sell.....because the mom's boyfriend thought it would be cute to use this honor high school student as a dealer. I blame the parent.

When I am called as an officer to a school because a boy was caught smoking marijuana on school property. And in the principal's office he breaks down in tears and tells us he is trying anything he can to get the sound of his mom having sex with random guys in her room right next to his in their small apartment out of his head.....and the mother then starts assaulting him in front of me for confessing this....I blame the parent.

In my few short years as a cop in NYC I saw a LOT of screwed up kids. I arrested way to many. Were some from good hard working homes with parents who were doing all they could? Yes. But the majority? Maybe 3 out of 4 or 9 out of 10...the parents were scum, selfish self-absorbed scum who never should have been allowed to procreate.

So yes having dealt with the fall out of their bad parenting and life skills I stand in judgment of them. I think Ive earned that right.

[NowhereMan]

Bear in mind no parent, especially ones who work hard and try their best, will think you've earned the right to criticise parents if you've never had a child.

Most of the time even if they agree with you

[Mrbloodworth]

When I am called as an officer to a school because a boy was caught smoking marijuana on school property. And in the principal's office he breaks down in tears and tells us he is trying anything he can to get the sound of his mom having sex with random guys in her room right next to his in their small apartment out of his head.....and the mother then starts assaulting him in front of me for confessing this....I blame the parent.

HAHAHAHAHA, you got sold a line.

[Baldrake]

A) Wake up earlier. I dont have to be in to the office until 9:30am most days. But I wake up at 6:30am in order to walk the puppy and spend some time playing games and training her.

Re-read what I wrote. How does it help if you get up before your kid does?

B) Move closer to town. There are other benefits as well. Urban renewal. Burning less fossil fuels. Smaller condos are more efficient than large suburban homes.

True. That's what I did, which is why I can get to work in 10 minutes. But there just aren't that many downtown houses in quiet, safe areas that are big enough for a family. Therefore, most people can't live in such places.

C) Choose NOT to have a puppy or kid unless you are willing to sacrifice certain things in your own life to make time for them.

Better hope not too many people take your advice. That puppy of yours ain't going to be paying your social security when you're old and crotchety.

Hell its been two years since Ive played a computer game. Between getting married, moving, buying a house, fixing a house and getting a puppy and kitty on the same night...I have to spend my time on other priorities. If I hadnt had the time to devote to properly raising the dog and teaching it to behave and taking it to training classes...I wouldnt have gotten it. Same goes for having a kid.

Again, you seem to be suffering from poor reading comprehension. Nobody's talking about ignoring their kids to play video games. People with young kids who play games (at least the ones I know) do so after the kids have gone to bed.

[Sky]

If were like the average American who commutes an hour each way, here's how my day would shake out:

I hope this answer was wonderful enough for you.

Den this fucking steaming pile already.

[Baldrake]

Yeah, you're right... I just googled, and it looks like average commute is an hour per day, not an hour each way. My bad.

But that doesn't really change the substance of my argument significantly.

[Abagadro]

Last night my video gaming after the kid went to bed consisted of grinding on Club Penguin for an hour to get enough coins to secretly replace my kid's puffles that ran off because of a bug.

[Mrbloodworth]

Last night my video gaming after the kid went to bed consisted of grinding on Club Penguin for an hour to get enough coins to secretly replace my kid's puffles that ran off because of a bug.

That's dedication, and i commend you.

[Rasix]

Den this fucking steaming pile already.

You're not the boss of me.