Mythic and TL Reports

[gimpyone]

The latest round of TL reports with feedback just came out and the feedback itself came in three flavors: Tabled, Under disscusion or no, design decision for a lot of the classes or the feedback gave two answers for the same question when asked by two different TLs.

Take for example a question posed by the Druid TL and the Healer TL:

3) Overwriting rezzes - there is nothing to prevent lower tier's from overriding higher tier's. This is a problem that affects all primary healers and rezzing classes.
This is something we don't have the technology to change at this time.

High percentage resurrection spells are still being overwritten by lower percentage resurrection spells.
Under Discussion

Full Druid report
here


The most stonewalled TL report in my opinion was the animist one available here

[Trippy]

I like ths one from the Animist report:

Creeping Mastery

A.) Most players have trouble telling the difference whether a Creeping Animist is using his/her debuffs or not. Their effects remain rather insignificant. A large boost to their effectiveness would really help bolster the spec.

Did you mean animation or increase in damage?

[Malderi]

TLs are one of the best ideas in an MMOG that relies on detailed balancing more than most.

The problem is, they talk to a brick wall. I've seen very, very, very few of their ideas actually get in patch notes. The most common ones are item notes for classes (things like epic).

Events such as a public open TL chat would do a LOT for confidence in it, imo. Take, for example, NS TL + SB TL + Inf TL + (insert random dev or two) in a chat, throw questions at them, and then publish the transcript. It would do absolute wonders for confidence in the stealth3r w4rz. Similar discussions for other balances (take warrior TL vs. wizard TL for tank v. caster discussion etc.) and publish 'em.

[HRose]

That thing was the last straw to drive me completely out of the game
http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/node/view/197

[eldaec]

Have to say, the 'feedback' was pretty laughable. I assume these issues are discussed at greater length internally, but Mythic surely can't be comfortable with someone making this kind of purfunctory responses in public.

[Sable Blaze]

TLs are a good idea. It's too bad the devs pretty much ignore them.

TLs in AO were mostly to keep the players mollified, I think. I don't recall even one suggestion that was every implemented by the ENF or MA TLs during the 8 months they were around when I was playing in AO. Or even the MPs for that matter, now that I think about it. I think ADVs may have gotten a (very small) bone thrown to them in this timeframe.

EQ ostensibly was going this direction, but from what little I've seen since I've quit, the devs are basically ignoring them. I can safely say the SK and Paladin classes are business as usual (being ignored).

Mythic was a bit different story, but not much. My tenure as an arms(wo)man was pretty much business as usual, with no tuning. That's over about an year and a half. Lots of talk, no action. Last time I checked (and it was a while back...) the defensive abilities STILL didn't work in PvP. Hence my stay on Gaheris, heh. I do recall some other classes seeing a fair amount of tuning, though.

Seriously, if devs are going to use TLs as a balance tool. they NEED to offer feedback to the community. I mean, the players need to have a clue that something is going on.

[Numtini]

I see it just as a PR tool to shut the players up. I've seen no evidence that people are listened to at all. And that goes for companies that I respect as well as those I don't.

(BTW what's the issue with the wizzie report? That Mythic won't be getting to it for six months? Welcome to reality.)

[Malderi]

the defensive abilities STILL didn't work in PvP

If you mean blocking/parrying, that was fixed some time ago.

Not that it matters, because as an armswoman you won't die to melee anyway - and shields and parry skills don't matter against mana eldritches (I know, I was one =P) or dark runies or any of those.

[daveNYC]

Here's another classic.  From a Grab Bag.

Q: Design question – The Shadowblade is a dex class just like the Savage... so why isn’t the Shadowblade’s damage dex based?

A: The Oracle (a fellow who manages much of the behind-the-scenes data, and has been here since the dawn of time) responds: ”The short answer: Because the weapon specializations the Shadowblade receive (primarily axe and left axe) only require strength.”

Must say, this round of feedback is especially bad.

[Phred]

I see it just as a PR tool to shut the players up. I've seen no evidence that people are listened to at all. And that goes for companies that I respect as well as those I don't.

Exactly. When I played DAoC back when it released, it was pretty obvious it was just a cynical marketting tool, part of the "EQ without the suck" marketting strategy they launched with. Being able to point at the direct connection between player representatives having contact with mythic devs made them appear to be unlike the Abashi led EQ public relations of the time. Shame the dev contacts ignored teamleader reports completely, but as I said, cynical marketting at it's best.

[EWSpider]

Compare the Nightshade and Infiltrator TL reports for even more amusement.  The Nightshades got told to fuck themselves on a few issues while the Infiltrators were told the very same issues were being investigated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/vigz0r/vigz0r/TLKeyboard.jpg

[Arcadian Del Sol]

Please feel free to link images. It makes me warm and yellow inside like the yolk in a soft boiled egg.

[Nebu]

Does it strike any of you odd that, according to the TL's, ALL of the classes are broken?  I'll could go into a long diatribe about the classes that are obviously over or underpowered but it would only serve to create the same caliber of bitch-fest seen elsewhere.  I've played the endgame in all 3 realms and can make somewhat informed statements about the game. Having said that, on with my opinions.

I think that much of what is found in the TL reports stems from pressures to "fix" things because of the Vault/Catacomb whiners.  The classes themselves could all be better, but I think the problems fall to a few, very simple concepts that are almost independant of classes and stem more from core game design.

1. Melee and Magic need to be balanced beyond hp and AF.
2. Melee and Ranged need to be balanced. Again, beyond hp and AF.
3. Realm Abilities need to be balanced.  Several classes have worthless abilities as their "unique abilities"
4. ToA Artifact effects need to be balanced. Some classes gain more functional benefits than others.

Before Mythic can even begin to look at the individual classes, they might want to get together with about 100 veteran players and see what they can do about the 4 things above.  Once that has been done, fine tuning the rest should be easier.

I've played DAoC off and on since beta and find that, other than the fucking pve treadmill_from_hell, the game is pretty fun.  
The bottom line is: I'm getting sick of all the whiners that want the same "I WIN" button as the FOTM classes.  Some classes are easy to play, some require a bit of skill.  I think it's obvious that the classes were NEVER MEANT TO BE BALANCED FOR 1 on 1 PLAY!!!  This does bring up an issue 5. Server populations, but do to fluctuating interest in the game there's not much Mythic can really do about that.

Pick a class, have some fun, and if the game starts pissing you off: find something new to play!  It's just a game.

[Zephyr]

I see it just as a PR tool to shut the players up. I've seen no evidence that people are listened to at all. And that goes for companies that I respect as well as those I don't.

(BTW what's the issue with the wizzie report? That Mythic won't be getting to it for six months? Welcome to reality.)

I think it is the fact that wizards have been pretty much overlooked since release, more so with earth spec.  You can spec in damage or damage or damage, all redundant really with no utility and far from the "master of damage" tag that was quoted so long ago, as all DD casters across the three realms do basically the same amount of damage.  Plus with Alb being on top on most servers, the chances of wizards finally being looked at is laughable.  Unless we get a guild group going out for RvR with a couple bodyguard paladins, my ice wiz is usually on PvE duty in Deep Volcanus.

[waterman]

I was a TL for a year+ and am still part of Mythic's TL program as a guest.  While I'm very critical of the entire thing (without a doubt the most critical person in the TL program, heh), it's still a Good Thing and it makes me sad to see how often people can distort what they don't fully understand (only people who are current TL's have enough information to understand it, and even many of them don't).  Yes, there are a lot of flaws, and a lot of things many of us would like to change - but it's not nearly as bad as people love to pretend (people who, I might add, have literally no idea about how it works aside from the reports they see).

One of the worst ideas IMO was for Mythic to let TL's share their report feedback with the public, since it's obviously not remoted intended for public consumption...  oh well.  :p

Some quick responses and (hopefully) insights:

... or the feedback gave two answers for the same question when asked by two different TLs.

Just FYI, this happened because the TL reports were reviewed over a period of 3+ weeks during a very active stage of post-NF design evaluation (with some other junk and changes in there too).  Some issues in the first few reports gone over were discussed (and hence labeled as "Under Discussion"), but by the time another report came up with the same issue later, it was already decided on.  Or vice versa.  There was a lot of confusion about this whole thing.

TLs are one of the best ideas in an MMOG that relies on detailed balancing more than most.  The problem is, they talk to a brick wall. I've seen very, very, very few of their ideas actually get in patch notes.

I think this is because of a community-based perception flaw.  Players see the same old outstanding "issues" with their class for the last 3 years, and act like the TL program serves no purpose because that issue has been ignored (whereas from Mythic's perspective it's not an issue worth fixing and never has been and probably never will be).

Quite a fair portion - in fact, I'd say the majority, even - of the patch notes you see on a weekly basis are due, in some part, to feedback Mythic receives through the TL program (along with other sources).  The thing is that for a long time now (and probably for the rest of the future), Mythic has been focused on balancing and fixing the Game, not classes/etc.  (the following is a fictional example)   So Enchanters sit there pissed off that their Enchanter TL is "ignored" by Mythic because they refuse to add damage new spells to the Enchantments line, they don't realize that the Enchanter TL might have been the driving force behind ensuring that Font of Power didn't get nerfed in RvR as well as PvE.  etc.

You have to view it as a whole, not just little parts while ignoring the rest.  Look at 1.71 so far...  I shouldn't need to tell you what has driven most of these changes.

Now that said, I quit being an official TL precisely because I felt that the return did not remotely justify my investment (time, brainpower, effort, etc.).  It's allowed me to be slightly more placid about how I view things, though I still spend (waste) entirely too much time and effort looking for that small return...  Regardless, I'd be both a fool and an idiot if I were to try to make the point that there is no return.  It's there, and it's all over.   Not as much as I'd like, definitely not as fast as I'd like, but...  there is something gained.

That thing was the last straw to drive me completely out of the game

Play the game for what it is, not what you cross your finger and hope it might be (or in this case, don't play, hehe).  TL stuff shouldn't be relavent to whether or not you play, honestly.

Pick a class, have some fun, and if the game starts pissing you off: find something new to play!  It's just a game.

Absolutely.  Definitely more fun than pissing and moaning and crying for years about having a nuke that does 3 less damage than the one your enemy has (which is most of the TL complaints about their classes these days), etc.  ;)

Long post. :x

[Nebu]

I think it is the fact that wizards have been pretty much overlooked since release, more so with earth spec.  You can spec in damage or damage or damage, all redundant really with no utility and far from the "master of damage" tag that was quoted so long ago, as all DD casters across the three realms do basically the same amount of damage.  Plus with Alb being on top on most servers, the chances of wizards finally being looked at is laughable.  Unless we get a guild group going out for RvR with a couple bodyguard paladins, my ice wiz is usually on PvE duty in Deep Volcanus.

Try playing one of these in rvr and tell me how you feel about your wizard's utility.

Hibernia: Champion, Valewalker, Animist

Albion: Armsman, Friar

Midgard: Savage, Thane, Berserker, Hunter

Hell... play any melee class in NF and tell me how you feel about your wizard.  I agree that wizards got screwed relative to Necros and Sorcerers, but in the grand scheme of things I think they do pretty well.  You're also correct in saying that Alb's current domination will likely put them last in the "gimme some love" category.  On 2 of the servers I play Alb dominates the other two realms.  Just last night there was a 75 person Alb zerg just to take a tower.

Look: It's not about min/maxxing... does anyone playing mmog's get that?  You don't have to have uber_fucking_god_template_076 to enjoy playing the game.  It's about playing a role in a group and enjoying that role.  I'd love to bitch about my hp's or my resists or some other shit, but when it comes down to it... there isn't a whole lot of difference between dying in 3s or 4s to a melee zerg, caster zerg, or archer assist train.

[HRose]

Pick a class, have some fun, and if the game starts pissing you off: find something new to play!  It's just a game.

Absolutely.  Definitely more fun than pissing and moaning and crying for years about having a nuke that does 3 less damage than the one your enemy has (which is most of the TL complaints about their classes these days), etc.  ;)

You know that this community is a spin-off from lumthemad.net ?
Because "not just play" is what most we do here. This is what makes different this community from all the other that you can find about MMOGs.

Or, in GBob words:

The idea of online journalism was changing the way that players and game developers interacted.  Lum the Mad was riding high with his web site, forcing game companies to engage the player base in a real dialog.

You know, considering a positive discussion as "pissing and moaning and crying" depends just on its use. Some of us still think that discussing the issues can still be somewhat valuable.

Perhaps someday someone will be able to work the industry and those discussions will become from worthless to extremely valuable.

And this applies both to us and to the Team Leaders, that are providing a *valuable service* to Mythic for free and are rewarded with a "fuck you".

[Nebu]

You know that this community is a spin-off from lumthemad.net ?
Because "not just play" is what most we do here. This is what makes different this community from all the other that you can find about MMOGs.

You know, considering a positive discussion as "pissing and moaning and crying" depends just on its use. Some of us still think that discussing the issues can still be somewhat valuable.

Perhaps someday someone will be able to work the industry and those discussions will become from worthless to extremely valuable.

And this applies both to us and to the Team Leaders, that are providing a *valuable service* to Mythic for free and are rewarded with a "fuck you".

Yep, know lumthemad.net. Thanks.  Need help off that horse?  Looks high.    

I also agree with the fact that the TL's comments largely go unanswered.      Kind of leaves the player base with some decisions, doesn't it? Posting constructive criticism is always a good thing and I support it.  I just fail to see why you're surprised by the reaction of Mythic to the TL's and why now is finally the time to quit.  You and I both know that it's been like this for years.

[HRose]

I also agree with the fact that the TL's comments largely go unanswered.

It's not a problem of receiving a longer reply. The point is about providing *reasons*. Because when Mythic provides reasons you can start a *discussion* on something concrete. So you can start to delve into the problems, understand what Mythic thinks about an issue and go on with the discussion till a positive point.

In the worst case the players will be able to understand *why* Mythic has a specific attitue toward an issue. In the best case the players will be able to point out something that will allow the game to become better. And this will be good both for the players and Mythic.

This dialogue is one of the most important resource for a MMOG. Mythic is wasting this. No, I wasn't happy at all of the previous reports, this is why I was pushing for a more *honest*, open and useful interaction. This last episode demonstrates that Mythic is determined to waste what they have. Not only they aren't improving, but they are going backwards.

[HaemishM]

I have always felt that a TL program is a valid and fruitless expression of the ranter community.

RANTING NO LONGER CHANGES A GODDAMN THING. THE CHANGES IT DID MAKE ON THE INDUSTRY WERE MINOR.

This industry changes when you vote with your dollar and not fucking before. That is the lesson of the history of MMOG's. If you pay for an MMOG you no longer enjoy, you are part of the problem. ESPECIALLY if you piss and moan about it on some goddamn board.

The biggest problem with Mythic's entire approach to game changes is that they rely on the feedback from the Vault boards (not for the TL's, mind you), a "community" which couldn't rub together two coherent thoughts to light a firefly's ass. It is a tumultuous sea of drooling retards complaining that the fucking Titanic doesn't have enough ice. Glub motherfucking Glub.

And with all that said, if you play DAoC just to enjoy PVP, accept your deaths as inevitable and don't read the Vault boards, you can probably enjoy some of the best PVP in MMOG's today.

Also, most feedback on DAoC results from someone being killed when they thought they were poised to PWN WITH IMPUNITY.

[Malderi]

Here's the way that balance mostly goes as I see it...

Whenever I've been in large, roughly even numbered fights (within ~10%) it's been VERY balanced, and Mythic has done a fantastic job balancing PvP towards large, roughly even numbered fights.

The problem with that design is, large, roughly even numbered fights happen once in a blue moon. Most of the time, you're either a) in a keep fight post-NF, where most classes useless; b) getting zerged, c) getting ganked, or d) getting in an 8v8 pickup group fight, where essentially whichever group picked up the most balanced members wins.

In times when, (as an example pre-NF) there'd be a 50v50 Emain milegate fight, DAOC is without a doubt one of the most exciting games I've played. In the 4-5 months (out of 2+ years) that I was PvPing seriously, I had maybe four fights of that caliber. The rest of my time was spent treadmilling, getting zerged, or getting ganked. And THAT is why I won't touch DAOC again, but am looking forward to Imperator. Mythic's team seems to have learned a lot, and I'm hoping they can put that to good use.

[HRose]

The biggest problem with Mythic's entire approach to game changes is that they rely on the feedback from the Vault boards

Nice demagogic reasoning.