Predictions: 1m+ players 3 days out; how about in January 2013?

[eldaec]

And hopefully this establishes that "story as the fourth pillar of an MMO" is understood to mean spending excessive amounts of money on non-interactive and rapidly consumed content.

You are assuming that this is the only way to do story.

It isn't.

The story in swtor is almost all single player, it is completely static, and the longer you are in game, the harder it is to maintain suspension of disbelief.

EVE generates stickier stories than swtor.

At the very least, if they want the story to contribute to stickyness, they need to give the game as a whole an ongoing storyline with episodes on a monthly basis or something. The static nature of the storylines in SWTOR mean they slowly degenerate to just a sugar coating for grind.

[Kageru]

Any publisher suggesting "ongoing episodic storyline" triggers alarm bells in my mind. No matter how large the company, or how much money they are making, they just don't end up being able to push out quality content nearly fast enough to make that work. Which of course is why investing massive amounts of time, effort and resources into "story" ultimately leads to a dead end.

I do agree that ultimately the genre needs mechanisms the players can use to make things happen. Whether that's the politics of Eve, the competition between competing guilds (eg. in raid consumption) or an evolved form of public / zone quests for PvE content. SWTOR added nothing in the evolution towards these and is mostly regressive.

You know, aside from the weekly Q&A they do, which is substantially more community interaction than any other MMO dev at this point 

Yeah, that's were Blizzard ended up after they got tired of directly interacting with the community. The hot threads, the server merge ones I read, only get hints of a solution through tweets. Same for the oceanic release, the forum thread came much much later.

[Rokal]

The Blizzard Q&As were roughly a monthly thing and were full of non-answers. Bioware is giving a few non-answers in their weekly Q&As as well, but they're also giving a surprising amount of direct answers. They seem to be including the questions people are asking even if the answer they have isn't what people want to hear. It's pretty refreshing, tbh.

[Ingmar]

Zoeller does post in the forums from time to time as well.

[Shatter]

The Blizzard Q&As were roughly a monthly thing and were full of non-answers. Bioware is giving a few non-answers in their weekly Q&As as well, but they're also giving a surprising amount of direct answers. They seem to be including the questions people are asking even if the answer they have isn't what people want to hear. It's pretty refreshing, tbh.

Yeah I was impressed, I really thought they would dodge important questions completely but they have been more upfront then I expected on hot topics

[Nevermore]

EVE generates stickier stories than swtor.

This is the most asinine statement I've seen yet.  Seriously, it's like you're on bizarro world.

[UnSub]

EA and BioWare are linked, of course, but EA would want some of that revenue syphoned off to other projects and how things like customer service are funded. Guess it depends on how they split the bills.

What customer service? 

The one EA bought all of Ireland to provide! 

EA and Bioware aren't 'linked', Bioware is a department of EA. Saying they are 'linked' is like saying SOE is only 'linked' to Sony, or the XBox division of MS is 'linked' to MS and that Everquest or HALO have to make more money than other games because they have to give a fee to Sony/MS.

"Linked" might have been a poor choice of a word, but I meant "degree of control / influence, especially when it comes to revenue". Is EA taking all the cash (after LucasArt's cut) and then doling out what they think BioWare needs, or is there a contract in place that works more like a traditional publisher / studio royalty system, where BioWare is guaranteed (say) 20% of revenue to go back into the company?

SWOR is EA's most expensive individual project ever, plus with higher ongoing costs (especially if EA is charging back all customer service costs to BioWare rather than amortising them over other titles), so it would make sense for EA to control the revenue wherever possible (although they arguably didn't control the spending on SWOR).

I don't know. One company can 100% own another, but it doesn't mean they automatically have a dog leash and whip to control behaviour.

[Nevermore]

The fact they only seem to communicate with their community through tweets is appalling.

There's communication on the forums, too.  Example of one such communique from today:

The Star Wars: The Old Republic team is looking for skilled SWTOR players in the Austin area to test out brand new content in the BioWare Austin office. We are looking for players that are experienced with endgame Operations, Warzones, and Flashpoints.

Players that meet this criteria may fill out this survey and qualifying candidates will be contacted for more information.

This is a temporary paid position and will require at least a weekend a month of your time.

Thank you!

That was posted right in the General forum.  They also let it be known that 1.2 will be up on the test server soon, and server transfers are tentatively scheduled for the end of April.  Legacy is the biggest holdup on server transfers.  I learned all that in less than 2 minutes looking at the dev tracker.

[Sjofn]

Using a dev tracker is cheating and you know it.

[Nevermore]

Using a dev tracker is cheating and you know it.

Cheating is encouraged.  Just don't kick the ball.  Hutts don't have feet!

[FieryBalrog]

EVE generates stickier stories than swtor.

This is the most asinine statement I've seen yet.  Seriously, it's like you're on bizarro world.

Story of Goonswarm vs BoB is the most interesting narrative I've ever seen in any videogame, no lie.

Whereas most videogames including TOR are OK genre fiction at best, saddled with the baggage of trying to be a movie/tv series in a medium completely unsuitable for it.

[Hawkbit]

EVE generates stickier stories than swtor.

This is the most asinine statement I've seen yet.  Seriously, it's like you're on bizarro world.

No, it's not.  I've played maybe two total months of EVE in the last five years, yet I retain quite a few stories about their world:  The BoB/Goon madness, the first major PLEX PK, the first CSM... I realize that's all meta, but that's the point.  EVE is all about meta, and the meta stories stick because living, breathing (in some cases mouth-breathing) people are making the stories happen.  

It's so much more memorable than my 16 days as a Bounty Hunter who never really hunted anyone.  

EDIT:  Beaten to the punch!  :)

[Nevermore]

Story of Goonswarm vs BoB is the most interesting narrative I've ever seen in any videogame, no lie.

That's not a story anymore than the Giant's run to Superbowl victory is a story.  It might be compelling drama, but it's completely different from an actual story.  Eve is completely devoid of any story that a player can interact with and instead relies on drama between its players.  While I'm sure Bob vs Goons was fun for the people involved, the majority of Eve players at the time didn't get to participate.

[Fordel]

Err, the Giant's run to the Superbowl IS a story? 

[tazelbain]

And you deluding yourself if you think you are actually participating in a bioware story.

[Nevermore]

And you deluding yourself if you think you are actually participating in a bioware story.

I'm participating in the Bioware stories a hell of a lot more than I ever got to participate in anything even vaguely interesting in Eve.  Eve is the single most boring online game I've ever played.

[Kageru]

Using a dev tracker is cheating and you know it.

I read the whole dev tracker... since it looks like there's only a single page. Most of those were announcements or adverts (like asking for testers). There were one or two clarifications on a cover change and not much that looked like discussion. Certainly not on anything remotely deep or hot. Not impressed.

Here's a comparison example of answering questions. Not that I care about the specific issue (or wow) mind.

[FieryBalrog]

 It might be compelling drama, but it's completely different from an actual story.  

I think? what you're trying to say is that non-fiction narrative (like a biography) is different from a wholly fictional narrative. But guess what, I like reading biographies and stories of real-world shenanigans and I hate reading Star Wars/Star Trek/Dragonlance books. So I guess I don't like "actual story"?

I have a non-zero but limited interest in intergalactic space opera that exists in the form of animatronic NPC robots, but I found it a lot more absorbing to read the real cyberspace opera that exists in the forms of hundreds of nerds forming alliances run like a military and engaging in dirty spying and backstabbing and politics like it was a full time job.

Also videogames are particularly terrible at telling a  linear "observed" narrative like cinema or TV is, yet developers keep trying (and failing) to be "cinematic". You can't BE cinematic while having an actual game to play with rules systems and phatloots and numbers because the two are completely at odds. Take away the game and you have Heavy Rain, a movie that runs on the power of mashing triangle square X circle.

 While I'm sure Bob vs Goons was fun for the people involved, the majority of Eve players at the time didn't get to participate.

You don't have to participate in a dramatic conflict to enjoy reading about it. And frankly, I'd much rather read about Eve drama than play it because playing Eve is fucking boring.

[Merusk]

 While I'm sure Bob vs Goons was fun for the people involved, the majority of Eve players at the time didn't get to participate.

You don't have to participate in a dramatic conflict to enjoy reading about it. And rankly, I'd much rather read about Eve drama than play it.

Eve: So fun that nobody wants to play it!   

What's the point of this little spur of a derail?

[FieryBalrog]

I think someone wanted to say that Eve already properly built the ~*~4th pillar~*~ of MMOs?

[Merusk]

Ah.

Pity they forgot the other 3 then.

[Nevermore]

 While I'm sure Bob vs Goons was fun for the people involved, the majority of Eve players at the time didn't get to participate.

You don't have to participate in a dramatic conflict to enjoy reading about it. And frankly, I'd much rather read about Eve drama than play it because playing Eve is fucking boring.

Call me crazy but I really don't think you want to design a game that's more fun to read about than actually play.  Eve is like rubbernecking a train wreck: it might be interesting to look at, but I sure wouldn't want to be in it.

[Numtini]

The Eve stories drew me back into the game long after I'd decided it was boring and the year and a half I spent playing created more memories than all the other games I've ever played put together. And unlike those other games, these were actual things that happened with real people, so they're my memories, not just memories I have of a drama. And they aren't just the huge game changing events, some of them are very small: Individual meaningless skirmishes in which something interesting happened or because of the people who were there that made it different.

Maybe that's why I found SWTOR so stale.

On the retention/interest aspect, back in beta I joined a little board SWTOR-Girls for women who played and I notice they're looking for a new name to rebrand it to be a general gaming, not SWTOR centric site.

[Draegan]

Not all players are hardcore (a multiple 50's / 3 month schedule seems to require more than 44 hrs/wk based on my /played time), and actually do we know what percentage of a player base (let's say WoW's) is casual and doesn't stick to the 3-month thing?  There's gotta be a chart somewhere showing post-expansion numbers vs. between-expansions numbers.

Apply that chart to the 1.7 million number.

Exactly, I can't be the only guy out there that plays this game what I would consider "regularly" (as in I play it more than any other game I currently have) and still doesn't have a 50 yet. There are a ton of people out there that only have 5 - 10 hours a week to devote to video games, and for those people, I'm still seeing plenty to do in this game.

I have a level 41 BH, 43 Op and a 29 JK.  I've been enjoying the story but recently just hit my Op again.  I'm playing this game very casually right now and experiencing the content.  I know the endgame and raiding scene don't hold much in this game.

My one problem is by the time I hit level 43 on my Op on Belsavis, the story is cool but mobs get harder and it's not as fun especially when I'm full heal.  It's starting to feel like more of a grind and I've been spacebaring the shit out of every quest except my class quest and main planet quest.  The rest is just boring at this point.

I'll have to make a push to 50 soon.

What I really want is a LFD.  I want to play in a group with people, this game is super fun in a group.  But when I'm solo leveling I never see anyone LFG for FPs, yet the devs were sure people would be group searching as they level on the planet.     Yeah ok.  I'm sure the devs aren't that stupid but were putting up a good story in their mind.

They really need a LFD thing and stop with the "community building" bullshit and server shit.  Rift did that experiment and finally opened up multi server LFD after it being server only and being dead.

If you're game is based on Dungeon grinding, then you better have a LFG mechanism that's ready at launch.  I've only seen like 4 FPs and that's with me using a higher level toon and just running through them on ez-mode.

I can understand the UI being crap due to them, for some reason, prioritizing other things for launch.  But that shit needs to be fixed pronto too.

[eldaec]

Ah.

Pity they forgot the other 3 then.

What are the other three anyway?

[Merusk]

According to Bioware: Exploration, Combat, and Progression.

Though I've also seen them quoted as Exploration, Combat and Social Interaction.

[FieryBalrog]

 While I'm sure Bob vs Goons was fun for the people involved, the majority of Eve players at the time didn't get to participate.

You don't have to participate in a dramatic conflict to enjoy reading about it. And frankly, I'd much rather read about Eve drama than play it because playing Eve is fucking boring.

Call me crazy but I really don't think you want to design a game that's more fun to read about than actually play.  Eve is like rubbernecking a train wreck: it might be interesting to look at, but I sure wouldn't want to be in it.

Just because Eve is boring to play and fun to watch doesn't mean that a game that's fun to watch must be boring to play.

Also clearly enough people enjoy participating in Eve drama that CCP held onto the 2nd biggest Western MMO for way longer than you would expect for a nerdcore spreadsheet space simulator.

[Sky]

But when I'm solo leveling I never see anyone LFG for FPs, yet the devs were sure people would be group searching as they level on the planet. 

In the middle of your "I'm bored with a game I've been playing for months" (which is only sane imo) post, there's a good nugget. The primary need for LFD is that they are all based off the fleet. Unless you're hanging out in the fleet, there's no way to LFG for an FP. I've been doing heroics right along, but I've only done the first couple FPs, mostly with BC. It never occurred to me why that is, and there you go.

[Draegan]

But when I'm solo leveling I never see anyone LFG for FPs, yet the devs were sure people would be group searching as they level on the planet. 

In the middle of your "I'm bored with a game I've been playing for months" (which is only sane imo) post, there's a good nugget. The primary need for LFD is that they are all based off the fleet. Unless you're hanging out in the fleet, there's no way to LFG for an FP. I've been doing heroics right along, but I've only done the first couple FPs, mostly with BC. It never occurred to me why that is, and there you go.

Actually I haven't been playing that much outside the first 2-3 weeks.  Been playing like 2-3 days a week for an hour or two.

[Fordel]

My one problem is by the time I hit level 43 on my Op on Belsavis, the story is cool but mobs get harder and it's not as fun especially when I'm full heal.  It's starting to feel like more of a grind and I've been spacebaring the shit out of every quest except my class quest and main planet quest.  The rest is just boring at this point.

Belsavis is just a really shitty planet. Whatever they were going for on that planet just didn't work out right.

[Paelos]

I'm thinking they were going for walls. Lots of walls.

[Kageru]

Graphs from a player going through and doing a /who search for what looks like all servers. Impressive effort, far from perfect statistics, but probably roughly indicative. Just released PVP servers which was requested after she did PvE early.

I have no idea what a "healthy" server pop is, and the degree to which the game spreads out the population is going to determine how empty it feels and how much it matters, but these do seem relatively low.

[ajax34i]

I'm getting the impression that as you go up in levels, the following things happen:

- mobs are harder to kill
- bugs and quest glitches increase exponentially
- there are fewer people in the zone to group with you if needed
- quests switch from interesting to a lot more fedex

So, really, it's an unfinished game past, say, 40 or so, and it's better to make alts than to push to 50.  Except for the fact that everyone wants their legacy xp.  Don't know what for.

Unfortunately, I like to finish a story before switching to a different one, so I too want to push to 50 (or 49) before starting alts. 

[Ingmar]

Mobs are harder to kill, and there are fewer people. The other two things on your list don't match my experience in the slightest.

I've leveled 2 guys to 50 now and I can count the number of broken quests I've run into on two fingers (one was a conversation 'quest' with Doc that only affected male players, one was a heroic 4 on Belsavis that didn't spawn any monsters in the area, that actually worked to our advantage.)

Oh and both were fixed by the next weekly patch after I encountered them.

[Nevermore]

The Eve stories drew me back into the game long after I'd decided it was boring and the year and a half I spent playing created more memories than all the other games I've ever played put together. And unlike those other games, these were actual things that happened with real people, so they're my memories, not just memories I have of a drama. And they aren't just the huge game changing events, some of them are very small: Individual meaningless skirmishes in which something interesting happened or because of the people who were there that made it different.

Maybe that's why I found SWTOR so stale.

Eve 'stories' were created entirely by the players, not by Eve.  It's like saying Dungeons and Dragons has a better story than Lord of the Rings*.  That's not to say you can't have fun, memorable times with D&D because you created those fun times yourself with your friends but in my opinion it would be disingenuous to say that D&D itself is a better story.

*Disclaimer: SWTOR is certainly no Lord of the Rings but neither is Eve anywhere near D&D.