War

[Korachia]

As a long time follower of eve, and especially the goons, I have a question about their future.

If we accept the premise that; 1) their will be no favorable reaction from CCP, 2) Goonswarm will loose their remaining system in the short/medium, 3) doesn't disintegrate;  what are the scenarios for Goonswarms future?  

My guesses circle around a couple of possibilities:  

Continue to resist from NPC delve, until they succeed or die trying?

Move north and either make their home on the left or right flank of NC, and help them out?

Move east to Deathx, and attack west to regain old ground? (the closest thing to come full circle... if we look away from the possibility they go to syndicate  )  


I would like to hear other, properly more informed, speculations, and if any of these scenarios are realistic or if there are other more realistic scenarios?

Each of those mentioned, will affect the "international" system in a very different way, which could be fun to analyse even further.


Edit: Was making my post before Endie posted his "goons going back to syndicate". If that was seriously meant, will this not be just a short term thing, before you move on?

[tazelbain]

"We are horrible at this game" isn't just a motto, it's a way of life.

[eldaec]

Edit: Was making my post before Endie posted his "goons going back to syndicate". If that was seriously meant, will this not be just a short term thing, before you move on?

He's not joking, and noone has a plan beyond Syndicate, because...

1) What the fuck is better than Syndicate?
2) This only happened 20 hours ago.

[Endie]

Yeah I think I only trolled this thread once, almost three years ago.  We're off to Syndicate to lick our wounds and plot.

Bad news for Vanguard and other Syndicate residents, though.

[Simond]

Bad news for Groon and other Syndicate residents, though.

 

(Content: I'm guessing Geminate or nearby as the real destination).

[Fordel]

You guys are going to end up looping all the way around again in a year, just watch!

[slog]

So, it's probably time to end this thread?

[Phildo]

People said the same thing when we took Delve a year ago.  The answer is still no, unless all war in Eve is coming to an end.

[setar]

Listening to the 'State of Goon' speech (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1001/sotg.mp3) I got to say I'm a bit baffled by the lack of admin structures and financial problems. 400 billion ISK in total only? Lack of capitals? The strategy of targeting R64s taken by IT might have actually worked a lot better than I'd given them credit for.

[slog]

Listening to the 'State of Goon' speech (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1001/sotg.mp3) I got to say I'm a bit baffled by the lack of admin structures and financial problems. 400 billion ISK in total only? Lack of capitals? The strategy of targeting R64s taken by IT might have actually worked a lot better than I'd given them credit for.

When we say "Goons are terrible at this game" it's not just an internet meme.

[WindupAtheist]

This is the Gooniest possible thing that could have happened. You couldn't make up shit like this.

[Slayerik]

I'm hoping we go to my old home in Venal. I got about 2 billion in assets just chillin' in an NPC station...and ships to get blowed up!

[Predator Irl]

Listening to the 'State of Goon' speech (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1001/sotg.mp3) I got to say I'm a bit baffled by the lack of admin structures and financial problems. 400 billion ISK in total only? Lack of capitals? The strategy of targeting R64s taken by IT might have actually worked a lot better than I'd given them credit for.

I was thinking about this before and I'm speculating a lot of our downfall other than complete lack of directorship, was probably due to not filling Querious up with renters / allies. Holding so much Sov didn't leave very much cash in the coffers for epic battles for any sustainable length and cover sov costs. It also left us with very few allies when it was clear our enemies were all building up around us.

It was quite evident that all other alliances  were dropping sov. but we didn't drop anything significant until very recently. Even at that it wasn't enough. While other were clearly building up their warchests, we were paying colossal bills. It was pretty evident Molle would return to Delve with his 4300+ strong alliance and little or nothing was done to prepare for it.

[amiable]

Haven't played in a while but I don't think this is a particularily good thing to happen to CCP. I imagine a lot of goons are just going to throw their hands up in the air and play a different game.  The drama generated by the whole Goon/BoB rivalry is why so many folks played this game.  I know if I were a goon I would say "$%^# it, I have better things to do than alarmclock to play against crazy internet spaceship nerds."

[Endie]

Amiable, I don't really blame CCP at all for this.  The defensive situation was fine, and I don't believe that IT had the endurance to eat through our (admittedly straitened) financial situation.  The mechanic that lost us Delve was a pest, but if only three alliances out of the whole of Eve are significantly affected then, quite frankly, the fault dear Horation lies less in our mechanics than in ourselves.

The fact is (and the Goons here will be aware of this) I've spent months saying that Karttoon was an awful CEO and not a leader in any sense of the word.  He is the seventh CEO I have seen in my time in Goonfleet, and (depending on your view of Delve I) the only one to even lose a war.  He's lost a few.  He never posted (eight reluctant and dreary updates since August).  He had a single gimmick, and it was played out long ago.  He never offered direction.  i am glad he is gone and if this is what it takes then I'm delighted with the results.

(Yeah, I mad).

Epilogue: Here's some free forum porn: a post I made two weeks before this happened, when the 49- invasion occurred, Goons were looking for ops, and Karttoon was all disinterested and :effort: about it.  It got me tons of +rep, the only currency which truely matters in this life, because I was only voicing a broader feeling.  It should also point out to non-Goons the extraordinary degree of openness we have on our forums: I've had accounts on a lot of alliances' forums, and I'd have been booted for less on almost all.

You can't just passively-aggress this shit away. You're the leader of Goonswarm. Leaders are supposed to lead. It's not enough to say that Goons don't know what they wanted to do, and that you as leader were a victim of their fickleness: you're the leader. Sesfan didn't say "you guys fancy fighting Bob? Or we could do some wardecs i dunno?" Darius didn't say "Well, we could go to Delve or we could try and win this here and stay in Feyth, what do you fancy?"

Blaming the membership for being fractious and argumentative after months of absentee landlordism is an abdication of responsibility.

It's not too late. Make a call. Don't get some of the leadership to post ops threads while others talk about how fucked we are: pick a message. Get a grip on them. Pick a gimmick. Can we win this one? Then tell us so and tell us how we're going to do it. Are we going down swinging in glorious Goonerdammerung? Be inspirational and Goons will follow you anyway. Are we fucked and running? I don't think so, but be brave enough to say if you believe it.

Just stop caviling and vaccilating, bemoaning your ill-fortune to lead goons that were unworthy of you and never really understood you in some last testament from the Fuhrerbunker.

[setar]

Bit like some of the old discussions in the MC forum. Well, minus Godwin's law, and with more emo. Another interesting take over at Ars. Full thing is worth a read, I suppose:

Goonfleet (which has always essentially been goonswarm) has over the last 6 months lost dozens of the old guys that made it fun and gave it its character. After "mission accomplished" they looked past their nerd rage towards bob and saw a frustratingly broken game and went to go play other stuff. A lot of the old guys complain about goonswarm losing its uniqueness and there's a lot of validation to that point of view. 90% of goonswarm fleets now are guys who aren't part of the original culture that goonswarm was founded under and just say bad words to be edgy.

Goonswarm has never ever ever ever been about building mighty space empires. Ever. It is, at its most essential, an alliance for griefing. Darius was a super charismatic CEO who pursued building space empires and made eve really really fun. People (including myself) got caught up in space wars because of this charisma and the hatred for bob that got built up over time, and the bloodlust that followed.

[Krakrok]

Shouldn't AAA just take Delve for themselves instead of letting IT have it?

[IainC]

Ugh Buxaroo posts on that forum.

[Nerf]

Listening to the 'State of Goon' speech (http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1001/sotg.mp3) I got to say I'm a bit baffled by the lack of admin structures and financial problems. 400 billion ISK in total only? Lack of capitals? The strategy of targeting R64s taken by IT might have actually worked a lot better than I'd given them credit for.

Not really, R64 income got nerfed hard enough in dominion that we were already fucked on income, the loss of the R64s wouldn't have really done shit. A bum might get upset if you try to take a couple pennies out of his cup, but it's not going to change his life one way or the other.

[Predator Irl]

Shouldn't AAA just take Delve for themselves instead of letting IT have it?

This was my thought too. If I was an -A- director I'd be pushing for this. In fairness, they did more of the leg-work than the Bobits!

[amiable]

Amiable, I don't really blame CCP at all for this.

I don't either, from the information I have they most likely made the correct call.  I'm just saying whether it was the right decision or not it is going to have implications on their bottom line.

Goons went out in the gooniest way possible, so all is right with the world.  But honestly, most of what made the game fun was the BoB/goon drama.  Get rid of that and all you have is a shitty spreadsheet simulator/e-peen generator.  If I were a goon (and I sort of was) I would just say "Eh, that was fun, but I think I may check something else out for a while."  Goons (well most goons) were never the type of players who were overly invested in internet spaceship dominance other than for the lulz.  And it was pretty damn lulzy to beat out the premier poopsocking alliance of the most poopsocking oriented game in the history of MMO's.  But now its been done, and all the space is gone, so who wants to do all that again?

[Reg]

The Great Evil Empire is long gone anyway. There's not really a big bad for Goonswarm to fight anymore.

[Endie]

Bit like some of the old discussions in the MC forum. Well, minus Godwin's law, and with more emo.

Hey, the last testament bit was particularly apt given what Karttoon was saying about his people being unworthy to survive in defeat (at which point we'd not even been defeated, and actually won the resulting fight).  And it was very far from emo.  Spergy and hurf blurf, yes, I give you that, but not emo.

Another interesting take over at Ars. Full thing is worth a read, I suppose:

Goonfleet (which has always essentially been goonswarm) has over the last 6 months lost dozens of the old guys that made it fun and gave it its character. After "mission accomplished" they looked past their nerd rage towards bob and saw a frustratingly broken game and went to go play other stuff. A lot of the old guys complain about goonswarm losing its uniqueness and there's a lot of validation to that point of view. 90% of goonswarm fleets now are guys who aren't part of the original culture that goonswarm was founded under and just say bad words to be edgy.

Goonswarm has never ever ever ever been about building mighty space empires. Ever. It is, at its most essential, an alliance for griefing. Darius was a super charismatic CEO who pursued building space empires and made eve really really fun. People (including myself) got caught up in space wars because of this charisma and the hatred for bob that got built up over time, and the bloodlust that followed.

The guy is right that Darius made it fun.  But he's wrong about the holding space thing.  Sesfan Qu'lah was all about space conquest, and although that meant killing Bob the forum porn and tears from pets were just very welcome fuel, not the desired end.  Sesfan, in fact, walked a fine line in his increasing burnout and tendency to spend all his time with allied leadership instead of goons, but he was smarter in his choice of subordinates, provided constant stuff to do, and didn't overstay his welcome.

Anyway, i think that the smartest thing that we can do for now is to take a leaf out of IT's book and take our time, shed some of the join4guild types who won't enjoy Syndicate and the relative poverty of a on-spaceholding alliance one little bit, and let the massve bloc of enemies fracture a little over time.  I would like to help the NC against Tri, though.

[tgr]

I've a beef to pick with a certain alliance in Deklein (Defi4nt), so if we were to have an ... overview bug regarding them, I wouldn't mind.

But personally I'm thinking that the thing to do right now would be to help solidify the northern regions and possibly prepare for a north vs south war. I've no idea if that'll actually happen, or if the southern bloc will just fracture and eat eachother if left alone long enough, but if that wouldn't make the news, I don't know what would.

[bhodi]

My favorite part of this whole thing

(1:53 AM) niart: I just logged on
(1:53 AM) niart: I have like a billion messages on jabber

[setar]

Bit like some of the old discussions in the MC forum. Well, minus Godwin's law, and with more emo.

Hey, the last testament bit was particularly apt given what Karttoon was saying about his people being unworthy to survive in defeat (at which point we'd not even been defeated, and actually won the resulting fight).  And it was very far from emo.  Spergy and hurf blurf, yes, I give you that, but not emo.

Sorry for not making this clearer, I was pointing out that MC discussions tended to be on the Emo side. BDCI has a long tradition of 'Emo Wednesdays'. Heck, we even got ourselves a logo:

[palmer_eldritch]

This is like winning a game of Civ and instead of clicking "return to main menu" you click "just one more turn..." and then manage to destroy your own civilization.

[Comstar]

Goonswarm seems to have had little to no strategic planning after Dominion. No vision, it needed some Brad McQuaid EQ-first-year level vision.

Personally I'm hoping for a Battlestars Goonactica search for a new home quest next. The original trilogy of books is done (Goonswarm in Syndicate, The conquest of the south, The Fall of BoB). Time for a new story.


We lost, pretty spectacularly, and much as I hate to say it, Molle was there and ready to take full advantage.


I've been living in Delve for nearly a year now. I was part of convoys that left the first week after Haggorth, was part of the battles in the W-4 constellation, was on the field when the Mothership and 10 carriers died after a 6 hour 1200km battle in J-L. I helped shoot down the last Kenny deathstar in 49-. I saw and got on the killmail of the Tri Titan in 319. I went on the foreign legion to kill someone not important in the drone regions, and saved RA the first time (though sadly, not the second). I got to be in Blackops for a very shot time vs IT in Syndicate  (a week dosn't mean much). I lost a command ship in the Y-2 disaster. I built up my tech I BPO's and got them all 20/20 researched and probably made about 2 to 4 billion over the year selling nothing but tech 1 frigate and cruiser mods on the NOL market. I started Delve flying a tech 1 battlecruiser and ended as a fully tech 2 Command ship running a wing of tacklers with 6 gang links. I got my Orca out of NOL as the largest alliance in Eve collapses spectacularly thanks to a self inflicted headshot and was able to laugh at it ending in a way I would never dream of happening.


It was well worth paying the crappiest internet space game there is to be a small part of that story and see and be part of all that drama.

[Jayce]

I'd say it was more a case of not having a galvanizing enemy. IT, -A-, Stainwagon etc could never really put on a show that convinced Joe Everygoon that they had a serious chance at Delve. 

The excellent thing is that we didn't lose. We would have, eventually, if we stayed in the space, just due to the fact that things change. But in this case we did ourselves in, hilariously, and left the space on our own, not because we were kicked out.  I wish we had held off the invasion for a few more months to prove the point beyond doubt that only our own ineptitude could actually do us in (certainly Molle would never have managed it) but I guess that will have to be left to history's imagination.

[Thrawn]

I wish we had held off the invasion for a few more months to prove the point beyond doubt that only our own ineptitude could actually do us in (certainly Molle would never have managed it) but I guess that will have to be left to history's imagination.

Unfortunately histories imagination is likely to be that IT was making a fantastic push in Delve and Goons gave up and retreated because they had no hope of victory.  But some of us will know better at least.

[setar]

I wouldn't say 'know better' because your version of the future is just as likely as theirs. Given the (now shared) state of your capfleet and finance Molle's approach *might* have very well worked out if he had the patience (likely) and no major shakeup would have happened within GS (less likely).

Best to simply not to dwell on what could have been.

[Sir T]

I'll just point out that Goons had to pay sov bills for nearly every system in Delve and to a lesser extent querious, whereas our enemies would drop sov at will becasue they were not facing off against 2 to 1 odds for over a year. If we had let sov drop to save money people would have been grabbing systems left and right. I've lost count of now many times I've had to boot out the Stain faggots out of Tpar, for example. Saying "the crappy state of ourr finances" is a bit of a misnomer. After paying off 2 regions for 2 months and having the largest sov bill in the game we still had a war reserve of 400 bill. I mean look at AAA. All CVA did was day claim to the systems around HED that you had dropped sov claims on and you freaked. They didnt directly attack you at all. But the fact is you dropped the sov claims to save money, so they had every right to claim them. If you had kept up claims on al your catch and fieth systems you would have gone broke. AAA space is basicly a small scattershot of sov systems now randomly dotted across the map. We didn't have that luxury. And after all that we still had the money, it was just in the wrong wallet division.

Anyway goons as Endie has pointged out is not an allience with the cash held at the top. The real money of goons is in the wallets of its members as goons dont try to screw its membership. Looking at the alliance wallet alone is the wrong approach. Besides Goons know how to operate on a shoestring. They did it for years.

And as for the state of our capfleet we got 110+ caps out of J-L last night, so there's plenty there.

Anyway, comedy news. IT, being the fucking idiots they are, never repped NOL after capturing and never retimed it as there was no way the depressed and reeling goonies would ever attack the station.

It comes out of reinforced in 2 days, US prime. Not that we will probably bother siegeing it again but hey 

[setar]

Uh. Wait, what? -A- dropped Sov in non-vital systems to conserve resources. And you claim GS 'did not have the luxury' to do the same because... someone might have come to claim those systems? Well, than you'd done the same what we are doing with CVA right now, kick them out.

Dominion forces you to project power without actually holding sov and jamming every single system. Chances are CVA will think twice about grabbing systems in Catch next time we are away. If you are not willing to do that then yes, drop Sov and shrink to a size that is sustainable.

And really, GS is about the membership? Wouldn't it make sense to reimburse them for their cap losses, then? GS operated on a shoestring in times when they were not mostly flying T2-fitted HACs, and when their logistics was the envy of every single alliance in game. And you very well might go back to that state as a result of recent events, but right now I wouldn't have put put the same perfect odds on your survival vs IT as some of the more recent posts here do.
 

[Endie]

IT would not have kept going long enough for us to run into serious financial difficulties.  Unless, that is, we had lost two or maybe three major cap fleets (like fifty ships a time).  It matters not one joty now, but IT couldn't have taken Delve and AAA had lasted even less time than normal.  When sov rules changed to favour the defender less, on the other hand, we'd have lost it in a shot.

What everyone's theorycrafting about losing sov forgets is that half the stations in Delve were held by pubbiecorps who had never had a red cent of high-end income.  Well, not since early 2008, to be exact. And that in any case GS showed in the past that if the alliance needs money we can raise immense amounts: we'd happily have donated scores of billions inside a couple of hours.  Our wealth is dispersed.

[Moosehands]

Bad news for Groon and other Syndicate residents, though.

 

We're really not cohesive enough to have an official opinion on the whole thing.  The pvp crew is mostly in upper synd these days anyways, and the rest of us ship spin or afk in covops.  We have literally nothing of value and are amazed if we see three of each other in the same system on a given day.