Rift: Planes of Telara

[Sky]

We're mostly older here and (for the most part) our mindset didn't come equipped with PvP - our games were against the DM and his minions.

Tell that to the poor tournament DM that got scolded by a judge because he was harassing me and my friend. He was playing a thief and I was playing a m-u/thief and the party kept sending us ahead to look for and disable traps. We also helped ourselves to all the good loot. And then whenever there was a fight, we'd slip into the shadows and wait for everyone else to finish them off, maybe plink in a couple arrows or darts once the party had things more or less wrapped up.

It was funny, the DM started with invisible ninjas sent to kill us (that got him his formal warning that we were legally roleplaying and he was being a baby about it). Anyway, while not combat pvp, it was definitely us vs them. In most of our home campaigns, the players ended up duking it out at some point.

[Brogarn]

The impression at launch that Blizz cultivated was that they cared about pvp and that pvp was going to be part of the game. Nobody knew about the Battleground concept and esport pvp being the only pvp at launch.

I bought into Blizzard's b.s. hook line and sinker. I thought it was going to be my new DAoC. While not that big a fan of open world PvP, I was a huge fan of RvR and thought that Blizzard was going to provide something similar. Then Battlegrounds came out and I was pissed. But, not wanting to deal with ToA, I kept with it and played the game Blizzard offered. Which was raiding and PvE gallore with sport PvP on the side. I bailed the minute DAoC offered up Classic Servers (June 05) and didn't go back until Cataclysm because I needed something to do and AoC is shit (including its PvP).

So, ya, I'm someone who gave a shit about PvP in WoW from the start. I should have known better from closed beta that PvP wasn't really on their minds but I let my hopes gets built up.

You touched on some past nerd rage of mine there. Hehe.

[Shatter]

Developers seem to treat PvP like its the red headed step-child.  They give it about as much as it needs to survive and in public they hug and kiss it to give a good perception but behind closed doors they feed it bread and water and beat it with a stick every couple days to shut it up cause they honestly dont give a shit about it. 

[WindupAtheist]

Everyone who had ever so much as heard of DAOC could have quit the day Battlegrounds came out and it wouldn't have delayed the next "WoW reaches X+1 million subscribers!" press release by a second. Tarren Mill skirmishing was shit, and the few dozen guys per server who seriously gave a fuck about it were a statistically invisible fraction of a niche.

Just saying.

[Paelos]

That's cause pvp with levels and gear doesn't work.

[Malakili]

Everyone who had ever so much as heard of DAOC could have quit the day Battlegrounds came out and it wouldn't have delayed the next "WoW reaches X+1 million subscribers!" press release by a second. Tarren Mill skirmishing was shit, and the few dozen guys per server who seriously gave a fuck about it were a statistically invisible fraction of a niche.

Just saying.

Yeah, this is exactly the problem.  Well "problem" isn't really the word, I frankly don't care if my DIKUs have PvP, if I want PvP I won't be playing that kind of game in the first place.  That isn't to say I don't like the idea of MMO PvP at all, but I also don't think developers are remotely obligated to put PvP into their game just because.

[Sky]

It's not niche because we like it! 

[Ingmar]

I think Nebu went overboard with the hyperbole in terms of numbers but the basic idea is sound. WoW at release, and for months thereafter, essentially didn't even have PVP, and that's when the game was getting its hooks into the first crowd. If you removed it *now* then I think the consequences would be large, but it really wasn't a big deal early on.

Wow lol. And many consider the best wow pvp ever had was exactly from late beta to  about when BG hit (was it late summer?). WoW had world pvp right off the bat. It had shit ton of it if you went to well populated pvp servers (and by shitton I mean in one weekend I had more pvp in STV and Booty bay than I had in 2 months of SB) . It doesnt matter if you only interested in bg, fact is WoW had LOTS OF PVP.

Then honor grind hit. It wasnt the end - in fact it made zones like tarrent mills constant warzone. But then BG hit. That was beginning of the end. By the time imba guards and flying mounts were introduced wow world pvp was half alive and after that it was simply gone.

There is still arenas.  and lol bgs.  Thing is pveers never care for  world pvp, hence they thing it does not exist, but fact is world pvp was what carried lots of hardcore guild trough first 2 years of wow (virtually every hardcore pvp guild was playing wow for sole reason of world pvp).

These "many" people that allegedly considered WoW PVP to be at its best when there was no incentive, no reward, no result, no consequences at all to participating in it... I don't think there are as many of those people as you seem to think. WoW at release didn't have "LOTS OF PVP" it had some ganking, some slapfights around raid entrances, and for about 3 weeks it had the TM zerg. That's it.

If you're arguing that there were a ton of hardcore PVPers that were just hanging around to see what was going to come down the line when Blizzard actually created a PVP structure, then you're making Nebu's point for him, because when all those people saw the BG/honor system and left it meant nothing to the game's success. The adjustments they've made over the years have all been about pleasing other constituencies - if that slice of crazy always-on world PVPers mattered to their bottom line you'd see a lot more catering to them because that's what Blizzard does.

Rift has one up on WoW in this at least, in that their rewards structure for PVP is in the game from the get-go, so you don't have to wait around for 6 months to discover that you're playing a game you don't want to be playing pvp-wise. The problem I see is that the PVP that they *do* have probably intrudes on the PVE-only crowd too much, at least until they clean up their flagging.

[Dark_MadMax]

These "many" people that allegedly considered WoW PVP to be at its best when there was no incentive, no reward, no result, no consequences at all to participating in it... I don't think there are as many of those people as you seem to think. WoW at release didn't have "LOTS OF PVP" it had some ganking, some slapfights around raid entrances, and for about 3 weeks it had the TM zerg. That's it.


Whatever floats you boat. I had more pvp per time played in wow than I had in AC:DT,  SB or  DAOC . I dunno maybe on some servers people happily carebeared in instances,  maybe even on my server people carebeared in instances. I don't know, I played wow for pvp and had it galore - thing like blackrock mountain, bootybay  etc were layered with player skeletons 24/7.  Heck the earliest pvp I saw was like lvl 12 - alliance was raiding crossroads (yes the no pvp  zone).  Name any vanilla zone  past starting- I can remember tons of pvp fights in it

 


If you're arguing that there were a ton of hardcore PVPers that were just hanging around to see what was going to come down the line when Blizzard actually created a PVP structure, then you're making Nebu's point for him, because when all those people saw the BG/honor system and left it meant nothing to the game's success. The adjustments they've made over the years have all been about pleasing other constituencies - if that slice of crazy always-on world PVPers mattered to their bottom line you'd see a lot more catering to them because that's what Blizzard does.


Look many people just wanted quality game. With pvp combat. There was lots of bitching among hardcore that wow pvp is meaningless, has no rewards , no consequences- all those things were true. But at the same time many people were simply tired of piece of shit "meaningfull pvp"  SB was and aged combat mechanics of daoc, they wanted game that works and was fun.  WoW had best combat in mmos to date, it is plain fluid and fun even today(still!) .In 2004 it was a  godsend.

Most of people played and pvped cause it was plain fun (same old good CS kind of fun) ,not for pavlov's rewards or UO style gankfests ( death was meaningless and gainless ). Yes many hoped that blizzard would make pvp more meaningful etc, many craved for RvR replicated experience .Well it did not happen and it was huge let down. however whatever wow had at start was damn good enough to last for long time .

   I never said vanilla wow pvp was the best thing possible and everything players wanted. It was not. However it was most polished and fun experience out of all existing  offers on the market And even today if you looking for mmo fantasy combat fix wow would still be primary choice ,cause it just that good. Even if Your options are limited to arenas and BGs .

And yeah many people stuck with wow despite its going downhill every year - there was nothing better on the market. Many people still subscribe to it for same reason ,yes it is worse than it was at release, yes its regressed. But what are the alternatives?

[Paelos]

I think that's a lot of rose-colored bullshit about early WoW pvp personally. I was there as well, and it was nothing like what you're describing.

[Dark_MadMax]

I think that's a lot of rose-colored bullshit about early WoW pvp personally. I was there as well, and it was nothing like what you're describing.

I sometimes really wonder if there were only select few pvp servers which strived. As many people say that they had "no-pvp".   Maybe they played on pve servers? Maybe they had it  but they didnt like it and therefore sat all day in instances? Maybe  they were on server with huge population imbalance and the other side was completely driven underground? Who the heck knows...

  I chose one of the most populated pvp servers at release and had a blast.  cant vouch for anyone else , but I think those who were looking for it specifically couldnt have missed it

[Segoris]

There really were few select good pvp servers. Blackrock and lightnings blade was great, but I keep hearing what I had wasn't the norm.


So I don't think madmax is using rose lenses here just a different server

[Draegan]

I think that's a lot of rose-colored bullshit about early WoW pvp personally. I was there as well, and it was nothing like what you're describing.

I remember it that way.

[Trippy]

These "many" people that allegedly considered WoW PVP to be at its best when there was no incentive, no reward, no result, no consequences at all to participating in it... I don't think there are as many of those people as you seem to think. WoW at release didn't have "LOTS OF PVP" it had some ganking, some slapfights around raid entrances, and for about 3 weeks it had the TM zerg. That's it.


Whatever floats you boat. I had more pvp per time played in wow than I had in AC:DT,  SB or  DAOC . I dunno maybe on some servers people happily carebeared in instances,  maybe even on my server people carebeared in instances. I don't know, I played wow for pvp and had it galore - thing like blackrock mountain, bootybay  etc were layered with player skeletons 24/7.  Heck the earliest pvp I saw was like lvl 12 - alliance was raiding crossroads (yes the no pvp  zone).  Name any vanilla zone  past starting- I can remember tons of pvp fights in it

 


If you're arguing that there were a ton of hardcore PVPers that were just hanging around to see what was going to come down the line when Blizzard actually created a PVP structure, then you're making Nebu's point for him, because when all those people saw the BG/honor system and left it meant nothing to the game's success. The adjustments they've made over the years have all been about pleasing other constituencies - if that slice of crazy always-on world PVPers mattered to their bottom line you'd see a lot more catering to them because that's what Blizzard does.


Look many people just wanted quality game. With pvp combat. There was lots of bitching among hardcore that wow pvp is meaningless, has no rewards , no consequences- all those things were true. But at the same time many people were simply tired of piece of shit "meaningfull pvp"  SB was and aged combat mechanics of daoc, they wanted game that works and was fun.  WoW had best combat in mmos to date, it is plain fluid and fun even today(still!) .In 2004 it was a  godsend.

Most of people played and pvped cause it was plain fun (same old good CS kind of fun) ,not for pavlov's rewards or UO style gankfests ( death was meaningless and gainless ). Yes many hoped that blizzard would make pvp more meaningful etc, many craved for RvR replicated experience .Well it did not happen and it was huge let down. however whatever wow had at start was damn good enough to last for long time .

   I never said vanilla wow pvp was the best thing possible and everything players wanted. It was not. However it was most polished and fun experience out of all existing  offers on the market And even today if you looking for mmo fantasy combat fix wow would still be primary choice ,cause it just that good. Even if Your options are limited to arenas and BGs .

And yeah many people stuck with wow despite its going downhill every year - there was nothing better on the market. Many people still subscribe to it for same reason ,yes it is worse than it was at release, yes its regressed. But what are the alternatives?

Use the quote tag. Put a single blank line between paragraphs. DO NOT try and "indent" your paragraphs.

[Sky]

It used to use the quote tags. Other than that, nothing changed in the six years between its posting streaks (it left off in 2004 and started up again last year).

[Hoax]

I think that's a lot of rose-colored bullshit about early WoW pvp personally. I was there as well, and it was nothing like what you're describing.

I remember it that way.

That's exactly how it was. From STV on it was basically constant pvp in every zone. Also nobody was happy pvp was zero consequence but Blizz had vaguely promised that there was stuff in the works for pvp. Nobody knew at the time they meant BG's.

I can't shake the impression that I'm having an argument with a bunch of people from pve servers about what the expectations were amongst the pvp communities that they weren't a part of. I'm not going to tell you what early WoW raiding was like because I don't fucking know. You guys should do the same.

[Draegan]

I can't shake the impression that I'm having an argument with a bunch of people from pve servers about what the expectations were amongst the pvp communities that they weren't a part of. I'm not going to tell you what early WoW raiding was like because I don't fucking know. You guys should do the same.

I'll agree with this statement.  It's most likely what's happening.

[Sobelius]

That's cause pvp with levels and gear doesn't work.

This.
When you eliminate the numbers (stats/level/gear) game from PvP and opponents are on a more or less even playing field, that's when things get interesting.

My MMO evidence is WAR (both open world and battlegrounds) levels 1-10. The only other time it even got remotely interesting for me in an MMO was DAOC, but even then it was only at its best when all three sides were on the field at the same time.

And one other exception: I played a few 8 vs 8 battles in Guild Wars with Bat Country. If we'd had our characters (i.e our shit) together, we'd have rocked, but we were all pretty newbish to the class ability combos and got hammered by a team with their shit together. And yet it was a blast.

Haven't touched the PvP in RIFT yet - nothing about it strikes me as anything new or different enough to warrant spending any time on it.

[Threash]

The only game to ever do that to a point was shadowbane.  Level had pretty severe diminishing returns, a lvl 50 which took about two days to reach was about 80% as effective as a max level 75 which took several weeks.  Also the max level on gear was 50 and it was plentiful and easy to get.

[pxib]

I think MadMax is using the term PvP in a very specific way. He seems to be talking about a modern FPS-style team free-for-all where it's kill or be killed with few stakes and no consequences. Quick respawns and constant combat. Exactly the sort of situation that made Hillsbrad Foothills worthwhile: The relatively short distance between Southshore and Tarren Mill. That's the only definition I can figure whereby the first few months of WoW PvP were the game's apex.

I remember running into a lot of players like this in the battlegrounds. They were the ones in Warsong Gulch who liked to form a big group at the base of the enemy graveyard.

[Rendakor]

They can also be found on the roads in AB/EotS, the beach in SotA and the field of strife in AV.

[Segoris]

I think MadMax is using the term PvP in a very specific way. He seems to be talking about a modern FPS-style team free-for-all where it's kill or be killed with few stakes and no consequences. Quick respawns and constant combat. Exactly the sort of situation that made Hillsbrad Foothills worthwhile: The relatively short distance between Southshore and Tarren Mill. That's the only definition I can figure whereby the first few months of WoW PvP were the game's apex.

I remember running into a lot of players like this in the battlegrounds. They were the ones in Warsong Gulch who liked to form a big group at the base of the enemy graveyard.

It wasn't the players fault there wasn't a good risk vs reward system. Also, imo, if someone is talking about vanilla wow pvp and brings up hillsbrad, they did it wrong imo. Plaguelands, hinterlands, blackrock mtn, felwood, those were the good pvp areas for soloers and group vs group (on my server anyways, hillsbrad was popular but filled with those who actually wanted what you described compared to pvp players who actually enjoyed good competition).

Unfortunately, there was only about 2-3 weeks of truly good pvp in wow with any reward or official motivation, besides the desire for competition. Right after the rank system came out and before battlegrounds destroyed any idea of good pvp

[Ratman_tf]

Back when WoW was first announced, I was hoping PvP would be like a game of Warcraft, from the player's eye view. With constructable/destructable buildings and vehicles. Boy howdy was I let down.

[Rendakor]

Old school AV probably came closest to that Ratman: enemy generals to kill, NPC troops you can upgrade and summon, territory to fight over, enemy buildings to destroy, etc.

[Dark_MadMax]

Old school AV probably came closest to that Ratman: enemy generals to kill, NPC troops you can upgrade and summon, territory to fight over, enemy buildings to destroy, etc.

AV was probably the best thing out of this abomination called BGs. Now if only if it was implemented in actual game world instead of instances....

[Merusk]

They tried.. it was called Wintergrasp and it showed exactly why you don't do world PVP in a DIKU with hardcoded sides.  "What's that Horde/Ally? You're outnumbered 5:1 on this server? Sucks to be you.  For 25$ we can put you on another server."

[Segoris]

They tried.. it was called Wintergrasp and it showed exactly why you don't do world PVP in a DIKU with hardcoded sides.  "What's that Horde/Ally? You're outnumbered 5:1 on this server? Sucks to be you.  For 25$ we can put you on another server."

Oh ,oh, and now we talk about that being why there should be 3+ factions for pvp.

[Modern Angel]

And THEN we get to loop back and talk about how any game WITHOUT three sides sucks and is doomed to failure!

[Ghambit]

Back when WoW was first announced, I was hoping PvP would be like a game of Warcraft, from the player's eye view. With constructable/destructable buildings and vehicles. Boy howdy was I let down.

You make an interesting point that's been brought up in here in the past with other games.  Adding a pvp resourcey strat. layer always seems much the smarter move for a traditional PvE DIKU, rather than bolting on pvp into a system that was really built for standard group coop. turn-based dungeon crawlls... which is what DIKU is.  As far as I know, not a single DIKU does this eh?

In Rift's case, it could be something as simple as handing over NPC "cloud control" to the players (rather than the GMs) and making the invasions resource dependent; having a housing/empire standard browser-based strat. game to parse said resources (which could even play into the ingame crafting system, rather than just crafting for gear).  The better each faction does in pushing their empires, the more control they get over the real-time gamespace, i.e. invasions and rifts.

Since most people complain that Rift doesnt feel very "worldy" due to lack of visceral real-world elements like farms, houses, mines, etc. (like WoW had/has), it'd make even more sense to at the very least have an instanced world that adds this, along with giving viable DIKU pvp.

[Dark_MadMax]

And THEN we get to loop back and talk about how any game WITHOUT three sides sucks and is doomed to failure!

Yup and rift is screwed up. I mean just looking at BG queues in beta - defiant outnumbers guardians like 3:1

[Draegan]

And THEN we get to loop back and talk about how any game WITHOUT three sides sucks and is doomed to failure!

Yup and rift is screwed up. I mean just looking at BG queues in beta - defiant outnumbers guardians like 3:1

This doesn't mean much right now, but in my guild database, I have 100 registered Defiant Guilds and 85 Registered Guardian Guilds. with 36 or so undefined.

[squirrel]

The only game to ever do that to a point was shadowbane.  Level had pretty severe diminishing returns, a lvl 50 which took about two days to reach was about 80% as effective as a max level 75 which took several weeks.  Also the max level on gear was 50 and it was plentiful and easy to get.

Ah shit. Yeah Sbane was good for that. I know I'm going to regret saying this but at the moment the only MMORPG that is similar in that respect is DCUO. Once you stop laughing realize that I'm not advocating or pimping for the game - it has a bunch of issues. But it does provide a PvP environment in which a) it's trivial to hit the level cap, allowing you to focus on PvP I you wish and b) level means relatively little in PvP - gear and abilities are certainly factors but 3 level 10's can and frequently do beat a max level character. I can forgive a lot of flaws for that.

Edit: phone posting sucks

[Modern Angel]

Yup and rift is screwed up. I mean just looking at BG queues in beta - defiant outnumbers guardians like 3:1

If only there were some proof, somewhere, anywhere, of a game doing good money with two factions...

[Ingmar]

I'd settle for some proof that more than 2 is a magic bullet that fixes population balance problems, other than "well it was fine on my DAOC server".

[Ratama]

If only there were some proof, somewhere, anywhere, of a game doing good money with two factions...

So copy that (instead of doing something better), and people will quit that game to play yours for no fucking reason whatsoever.  Oh wait...

I'd settle for some proof that more than 2 is a magic bullet that fixes population balance problems, other than "well it was fine on my DAOC server".

A 70/30 population split means longer que times than 50/30/20, or whatnot.

Having played DAoC as Mid on Guinevere back in its heyday... As overpopulated as Alb was, taking away Mid or Hib would have made it worse (no way *everyone* from one of those two would have simply gone to the other).

PS - You might have to settle for evidence or testimony, depending on your definition of 'proof'.