5 years and still going

[Nija]

Vanguard, was suppose to be it but failed on all levels. Aion could be it, but to me it just looks like a JP-WoW clone. With a new expansion coming out, im sure that FFXI will be around another 5 years but with all the bombs, and the new ones i just dont see there being another.

I could punch you in the face, daily, for 5 years and we'd both have more fun than if either of us were playing FFXI.

[Venkman]

Much the same could be said of EQ1. The problem is looking at these games through the lens of time. It's great how long these games last, but in the face of everything that's come since, they don't have that attraction power anymore. So it's good to hear the veteran fans of FFXI have an easier time rolling alts, but I don't think that'll grab people back.

That's not to rip on the corrections made about FFXI of course.

[Margalis]

Much the same could be said of EQ1. The problem is looking at these games through the lens of time. It's great how long these games last, but in the face of everything that's come since, they don't have that attraction power anymore.

I don't really understand that complaint. My theory has always been that MMORPGs go into retention mode from almost day 1. The power to attract people 5 years later is pretty irrelevant, but considering that populations are still high and plenty of people have left that complaint doesn't have much merit anyway as new people still seem to be joining up.

I agree that there won't be a rush of new people to FFXI, but the same is true of every game out there.

[Venkman]

I agree retention kicks in early for most games. Seems like games could enjoy a new spike though, with expansions. But outside of Burning Crusade, this has yet to really be proven. Odd that. Old skool design perpetuated in expansions to those games, or just a lack of shiny in face of the new?

[WindupAtheist]

What is up with this bizarre "WoW is for lazy losers who want everything handed to them" backlash, anyway?

It's the death-cry of the hardcore MMO masochist epeen freak.  Once upon a time there was only EQ1, and their ilk ruled the genre.  Then WoW came along and drove a stake into their hearts by showing how much more money could be made by catering to normal people, while Vanguard (quite accidentally) buried the still-twitching corpses by showing how little enthusiasm there is out there for that bullshit.

[angry.bob]

Now all we need is for something to come along and put a stake in the heart of raiding as the primary endgame and the genre might (definitely will)  improve again.

[Akkori]

Somebody please put "FF11 is my digital crack" in his sig!

[Stephen Zepp]

Now all we need is for something to come along and put a stake in the heart of raiding as the primary endgame and the genre might (definitely will)  improve again.

Actually, we need to shoot down the entire concept of "end game" in the first place, by making the game fun all along the way. Just my $2.00 :)

Stephen

[Abelian75]

Now all we need is for something to come along and put a stake in the heart of raiding as the primary endgame and the genre might (definitely will)  improve again.

Actually, we need to shoot down the entire concept of "end game" in the first place, by making the game fun all along the way. Just my $2.00 :)

Stephen

I don't really think those two things are opposed.  People tend to think focusing on the "endgame" means that you've got some kind of not-smelling-the-roses mentality, but I think the important characteristic of the "endgame," whether people realize it or not, is that all players who have reached it can now play together and compete together, with only (relatively) minor differences in power.  The endgame is the part of the game where you get to make friends, and play with them for as long as you choose.  The levelling part is where you just play the game in relative isolation, grouping along the way, sure, but not often with the same people (unless you've got some kind of permagroup going on).

That's a simplification, to be sure, but I think that is why people are attracted to the endgame.  It's not that they aren't able to "enjoy the ride," or that the levelling process is inherently boring.  It's just that the "endgame" is a TOTALLY different game, period.  Levelling is a multiplayer game, endgame is a social activity.  When I think of my time in WoW, there was the 1-60 experience that was similar to any other video game, and then there was the post-60 experience that was more like a sport or something.  It's two games in one, and there's nothing inherently good or bad about either.

So, basically, I don't think the existence of an endgame implies that either the levelling part or the non-levelling part are inherently boring.  They may appeal to a very different set of people, true, and it may be less than ideal for so many MMOs to cram both game types into the same game, but I don't think there's anything wrong with either game, and I think they both have a future.

[voodoolily]

No. NO! This is not a serious thread about mmogs. Please, people, have a little decorum.

[Slayerik]

What is up with this bizarre "WoW is for lazy losers who want everything handed to them" backlash, anyway?

It's the death-cry of the hardcore MMO masochist epeen freak.  Once upon a time there was only EQ1, and their ilk ruled the genre.  Then WoW came along and drove a stake into their hearts by showing how much more money could be made by catering to normal people, while Vanguard (quite accidentally) buried the still-twitching corpses by showing how little enthusiasm there is out there for that bullshit.

Well we can derail shit threads into anything. I liked the original idea of the 50 page 'threadnaught' :) Now back to my post already in progress!


Not only did they cater to the normal people, they did pretty well on their raid grind to grab the old 'hardcore raider dudes'. Between the EQ1 hardcores and the UO Roxxor Era, its amazing we turned out as nice of a genre as we have.

Bummer we are essentially 3/4 the genre we used to be without little to no true growth over the last.....10 years?

The only big successes would be WoW and Eve. Wow is (very loosely) like old EQ , and Eve is as close to UO as we can hope for it seems. Bummer, because Eve (though having many innovative things) has meh combat that I only made it about 6 months at.

Its a shame, and I really do hope dev houses realize they need not make the giant slayer, just a good game and we will be there. Or even....dare I say...something different!

[Abelian75]

No. NO! This is not a serious thread about mmogs. Please, people, have a little decorum.

Shit, sorry.

Um... cock, balls.  Ass.

There.

[UnSub]

Now all we need is for something to come along and put a stake in the heart of raiding as the primary endgame and the genre might (definitely will)  improve again.

Actually, we need to shoot down the entire concept of "end game" in the first place, by making the game fun all along the way. Just my $2.00 :)

Stephen

We've tried. But people get to the max-level and go, "Now what?", regardless of how much fun the journey has been.

CoH/V tried to minimise the endgame and make it "the journey, not the destination" (and so no-one else has to: COH/V TOO GRINDY POST LVL 30 BLAH BLAH - thanks, we know) but players want something to do with thelr max level characters. So I10 is going to be introducing a repeatable endgame raid to satisfy those who have this complaint.

I take the view that there is no such thing as an endgame, just the point where you stop playing the game.

[UnSub]

Every year, a new game comes out. and every year it fails to reach the expectations that I have from playing FFXI for the last 5 years. Even games that come out, dont even reach the graphic quality of this game. Nothing that I have played even comes close. Guess my question is, will there ever be something that carrys on what Variant started and what imo, SE made perfect. Will there ever be another one.

Well, I'm convinced.

Vanguard, was suppose to be it but failed on all levels. Aion could be it, but to me it just looks like a JP-WoW clone. With a new expansion coming out, im sure that FFXI will be around another 5 years but with all the bombs, and the new ones i just dont see there being another.

Out of all the MMOs coming out this year, you picked one well recognised failure and one pseudo-mainstream MMO to comment on. What, you couldn't stretch out some badly phrased thoughts about AoC, Gods and Heroes or POTBS?

And, with any luck, there won't be another FFXI, because hopefully the industry will have learned from their mistakes.

[Kitsune]

Teh gram snak is emoz oic ty -- bff jill

That is all, continue.

[Ironwood]

Hey, this thread is like a shrine to ME.  We have a summoning of me, a Magic Card of me, Slayerik posting with ME in his sig and finally Endie would have appeared to have kept the Surprise Cockfags poster I made ages ago.

If it continues to be all about me, I'll end up being the new Bruce and be deep inside a vole before you know it.

Incidentally, that chart with the 'beeline' ?  Fucking Awesome.

[Endie]

...and finally Endie would have appeared to have kept the Surprise Cockfags poster I made ages ago.

1) That was Oban

2) I actually do have a copy of that saved.  I just came late to this party.

I must say that I am disappointed that Grunk hasn't managed to inspire the lynching yet that looked so imminent on page one.  I had hoped for another guerilla-marketing dude.

[Ironwood]

He gave up way too easy.  I suspect due to the fact that it was Med Time.

[Ironwood]

Also, I'd like to point out how long ADOM and Nethack and so forth have been going with an extreme hardcore following.

My Point ?  Just as useless as the original one.

[Fabricated]

I really regret not noticing this thread until now.

I can't tell the difference between retards and viral marketers at this point. Maybe he needed something to do while waiting for a group to go kill crabs.

[DraconianOne]

I must say that I am disappointed that Grunk hasn't managed to inspire the lynching yet that looked so imminent on page one.  I had hoped for another guerilla-marketing dude.

He is, presumably, at his 40+ hours a week job.

[Venkman]

If that was viral marketing, someone needs to have their contract reviewed.

Actually, we need to shoot down the entire concept of "end game" in the first place, by making the game fun all along the way. Just my $2.00

Veteran MMO players have an expectation for the endgame, based on experience. It's either PvP, Raiding, or something to do with commerce/politics in owned structures. That's pretty much all we've ever gotten from the games with the relatively big numbers.

The "fun along the way" thing has evolved over the decade. No game has launched claiming to be a suckfest from 1 to cap. Every game has tried to make combat and questing fun along the way. I still remember the collective "cool" felt about the mission system in AO (before launch, of course), the Tasks and Combat Styles in DAoC, the twitchy feel of CoX and PS.

Most recently we've seen (in WoW and EQ2) the ability to have soloable quests throughout the levels. Mechanically, this is just grinding with text blocks, but it feels very different because the models are different, the objectives different, and so no. It's like playing a match-3 casual game without a story-arc (Bejeweled) and one that has one (Puzzle Quest). One isn't better than the other per se, but the compulsion to continually advance is stronger in the latter. Meanwhile, the core game experience is more similar than not. As fun as WoW is, if you solo the levels you're doing largely the same thing over and over. But it's in the context of short, mid- and long-term goals, so isn't felt as deeply as kiting Giants in Great Divide for 10 levels.

But the question remains: what happens at the cap? People won't rush there if they don't like what they hear about it from the people who do.

[Engels]

I thought it was Oban having a laugh?

Edit: I take that back. He just poopied on the LoTR thread.

[grunk]

Most of the information in this thread is horribly outdated. Travel times in FFXI are greatly reduced compared to how they used to be, as is levelling. Not only were XP requirements lowered, new areas were introduced that make levelling easier and a ton of things were added like XP rings (essentially a rest system), NPCs you can call to fight with you, faster healing rates and other changes to make solo play easier.

As far as requiring the perfect party, that is also no longer true. 3 years ago people played that way, nowadays not so much. Hell the other day my NPC tanked for my group for a while, quite successfully. There are at least 3 jobs that can play the role of healer (WHM, RDM, SMN), anyone subbing NIN can tank in a lot of parties as well as main NIN, PLD and even BLU. Most people who complain about LFG are simply too lazy to form their own parties.

Solo strategies are much more refined as well compared to a few years ago.

The game does have a lot of quest cockblocks but now that most people are higher level getting help on those is not a problem at all.

thank god, there is one other person that has a phucken clue on this board?

YOU PEOPLE FAIL.

[Signe]

I'm glad Margalis won.  Everyone was picking on him in that politics thread and I felt bad for him.  I think it's wonderful he won this thread. 

VIVA MARGALIS!

I'm glad grunk came back, too.  You rule, grunk.  Really.

No, seriously, you do.  You are a spunky monkey.

[grunk]

What is up with this bizarre "WoW is for lazy losers who want everything handed to them" backlash, anyway?

It's the death-cry of the hardcore MMO masochist epeen freak.  Once upon a time there was only EQ1, and their ilk ruled the genre.  Then WoW came along and drove a stake into their hearts by showing how much more money could be made by catering to normal people, while Vanguard (quite accidentally) buried the still-twitching corpses by showing how little enthusiasm there is out there for that bullshit.

Well we can derail shit threads into anything. I liked the original idea of the 50 page 'threadnaught' :) Now back to my post already in progress!


Not only did they cater to the normal people, they did pretty well on their raid grind to grab the old 'hardcore raider dudes'. Between the EQ1 hardcores and the UO Roxxor Era, its amazing we turned out as nice of a genre as we have.

Bummer we are essentially 3/4 the genre we used to be without little to no true growth over the last.....10 years?

The only big successes would be WoW and Eve. Wow is (very loosely) like old EQ , and Eve is as close to UO as we can hope for it seems. Bummer, because Eve (though having many innovative things) has meh combat that I only made it about 6 months at.

Its a shame, and I really do hope dev houses realize they need not make the giant slayer, just a good game and we will be there. Or even....dare I say...something different!

successes? EvE? um last i checked FFXI had at one point over 500k subs, and is well over 300k subs right now. Get your numbers straight.
EH mistake? a game with over 300k subs? thats a mistake? how , do tell me. How on earth did Square make a mistake. The only mistake, is that you people need the gold dot. you people need a quest log. you people need to be taken by the hand, and be told
"HAI GUYZ! HEY MORON! CLICK THE GUY WITH THE GOLD DOT!!!! DING!"

[Sky]

   I dont know whats sadder, me bothering to post, or how fast everyone got sucked in by the FXII employee.

You bothering to post imo. I don't see anyone being sucked in by anything.

Signe, don't eat grunk's brain. It's not right.

[Slayerik]

What is up with this bizarre "WoW is for lazy losers who want everything handed to them" backlash, anyway?

It's the death-cry of the hardcore MMO masochist epeen freak.  Once upon a time there was only EQ1, and their ilk ruled the genre.  Then WoW came along and drove a stake into their hearts by showing how much more money could be made by catering to normal people, while Vanguard (quite accidentally) buried the still-twitching corpses by showing how little enthusiasm there is out there for that bullshit.

Well we can derail shit threads into anything. I liked the original idea of the 50 page 'threadnaught' :) Now back to my post already in progress!


Not only did they cater to the normal people, they did pretty well on their raid grind to grab the old 'hardcore raider dudes'. Between the EQ1 hardcores and the UO Roxxor Era, its amazing we turned out as nice of a genre as we have.

Bummer we are essentially 3/4 the genre we used to be without little to no true growth over the last.....10 years?

The only big successes would be WoW and Eve. Wow is (very loosely) like old EQ , and Eve is as close to UO as we can hope for it seems. Bummer, because Eve (though having many innovative things) has meh combat that I only made it about 6 months at.

Its a shame, and I really do hope dev houses realize they need not make the giant slayer, just a good game and we will be there. Or even....dare I say...something different!

successes? EvE? um last i checked FFXI had at one point over 500k subs, and is well over 300k subs right now. Get your numbers straight.

I never said monetary successes. I'm talking genre successes. If I did, I could call lineage or FFXI successes but I'm not a flaming douchebag and I really dont care about subs in Asia.

[CmdrSlack]

SUB NUMBARZ DON'T LIE@!!!@one!@!!!

Ah yes, the rallying cry of those without a real argument when defending their game of choice.

[Avatard]

successes? EvE? um last i checked FFXI had at one point over 500k subs, and is well over 300k subs right now. Get your numbers straight.

Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude.

Answer my question.

[Ironwood]

thank god, there is one other person that has a phucken clue on this board?

YOU PEOPLE FAIL.

Fair Warning, mate;  I think Coleridge's drugs are wearing off.

[Miasma]

thank god, there is one other person that has a phucken clue on this board?

YOU PEOPLE FAIL.

I was going to explain that he doesn't have to use "phucken" since we don't have a profanity filter but I think WUA's post in the LotRO thread should fully demonstrate the fact.

[UnSub]

successes? EvE? um last i checked FFXI had at one point over 500k subs, and is well over 300k subs right now. Get your numbers straight.

If we are going by sub numbers, FFXI kneels coyly before WoW. And Britney Spears is the BEST SINGA EVAH.

[schild]

I do say, good suhs, that simply by looking at this young chaps first post and thread title that you should know better than to even pretend to be rational with him or try to hold a conversation.

And dear god, don't try to make a point. He might have rabies.

[WindupAtheist]

I was going to explain that he doesn't have to use "phucken" since we don't have a profanity filter but I think WUA's post in the LotRO thread should fully demonstrate the fact.

It demonstrates what sort of soft pussy boards he's used to when he types "phucken" by default.  Profanity filters my ass.

I do say, good suhs, that simply by looking at this young chaps first post and thread title that you should know better than to even pretend to be rational with him or try to hold a conversation.

And dear god, don't try to make a point. He might have rabies.

I think you should insta-ban anyone who puts their character name and level in their sig.  That would be a fun rule.