48 minutes to Fail

[Soln]

Nobody pee'd in my Cheerios, but last night I waited 48mins and change to get into AV only to be rolled up in <15mins.  Faction doesn't matter (was Horde), but my question is -- didn't they fix the QUEUES? 

I've ping-pong'd so much in and out of WoW that I don't remember when the Queues were supposed to be lessened (start of cross server BG's?) but it just hasn't seemed to have improved in the last 4 weeks of re-subbing.  WSG I find is usually 5-15mins, AB 10-15mins, AV 20mins and counting. Anyone else find this? 

I'm asking b/c I'm wondering if there's something potentially odd with my connection that is dropping me or something to make my position in the queue suck.  I don't know how they rank queue time (FIFO?) but I figured it was dynamic.  Any suggestions?  other than WAR?

[K9]

Which battlegroup are you in?

EU-Misery has nearly-instant queues.


Looking at the statistics I know my BG is actually pretty evenly balanced population wise. What I suspect the problem to be is horde players queueing for 3/4 instances, thus one person actually sits in 3 queues, slowing entry down for everyone else. This is also why a lot of horde BGs start off at a numerical disadvantage, as a player's slot is held for 2mins, or until they click "leave queue" (which I suspect few do, most will just hit "hide"), thus with a 1min setup, there are a bunch of blocked slots at the start of each BG, being used by people in other BGs. This may be utter bollobks by the way, but it's my strongest suspicion, since census data doesn't suggest that there is any overwhelming population imbalance on most battlegroups, certainly not sufficient to explain a lot of these gaps.

45mins is a bit ludicrous though.

[Hutch]

Are you queueing up in a group? "Premade" groups are matched up against other premades by the new queue'ing regime. As a result, there aren't so many premades anymore, and so that queue takes longer to pop.

[cevik]

Are you queueing up in a group? "Premade" groups are matched up against other premades by the new queue'ing regime. As a result, there aren't so many premades anymore, and so that queue takes longer to pop.

This is the only thing I could think of, except that I don't think you can queue as a group to AV can you?

My longest wait times in the Vindication Battle Group is usually around 2 minutes.

[Arrrgh]

Stormstrike alliance it's rare to wait over one minute. Often instant.

[Soln]

Damn you all 


Yeah, I usually queue up with my wife as a group (join as group).  Is that a "pre-made"?  Why would that slow us down?

We're on Turalyon, US.

Edit: Stormstrike BG

[Arrrgh]

No, the long queue times kick in when you form a raid and try to queue with 6 or more people. I often do AV with one her person and it's usually less than 1 minute.

[Hutch]

I don't think you can queue as a group to AV can you?

You can now. But as Aargh pointed out, it's only if you're in a raid group (6+) that causes the "premade" queueing to kick in.

So if you got in a group with one other person, and it took 45 minutes to get in, that's bad timing and/or a sparse battlegroup.

[Paelos]

Stormstrike alliance it's rare to wait over one minute. Often instant.

This is pretty much the reason. There are tons and tons of Horde queuing for BGs now, and not a lot of Alliance anymore. Horde timers are longer now than alliance, which is a complete reversal of the old times.

[Arrrgh]

Stormstrike alliance it's rare to wait over one minute. Often instant.

This is pretty much the reason. There are tons and tons of Horde queuing for BGs now, and not a lot of Alliance anymore. Horde timers are longer now than alliance, which is a complete reversal of the old times.

Most everyone in my guild has WoW burnout so there's rarely more than a couple of us on lately. I see fewer people in general standing around the battlemasters too. So you have less WoW burnout on the horde side? I'd have thought numbers would have been down equally.

[Soln]

The latest has been for Alliance to stealth into Org and snipe from roofs.  I realize this is old hat, but last night was my first time seeing them atop the roofs outside the hall of the brave in the valley of honor.  They were sniping us flagged coming out.  Or at least I got owned on my way to wait on the queue by fishing....

[Fordel]

Nightfall Alliance has had unusually 'long' queue times as of late for AV.


Waiting 3-4 minutes these days 

[deadplayer]

In our server, we alliance always fail in AV.

[Arrrgh]

In our server, we alliance always fail in AV.

We win a bit less than half of the AVs I've been in lately.

But a 10 second queue followed by a loss has to be far less annoying than a 40 minute queue followed by a loss.

[Shrike]

 Rampage BG (I'm on Whisperwind) queue times are usually just a couple of minutes. Rarely more than 4. Generally about 1-2 minutes.

As for Alliance winning in AV, well, overall I"d guess it's about 50%, maybe with a slight advantage to Alliance. There's a lot of stupidity Alliance side which usually results in Horde victories, but I've seen an awful lot of undergeared Horde lately as well. If I can get a guild premade team, we'll back-cap and that generally screws the Horde pretty badly. They're not used to seeing that sort of coordination Alliance-side--which is shameful when you think about it. Rampage Horde also tend to like turtles, which could go either way. An uncoordinated/clueless Alliance team will often lose in reinforcements, but an Alliance AV with a premade team or two will roll up a Horde turtle much more often than not.

AV weekend this coming weekend, so this stuff is on my mind...

[Soln]

It's on my mind too.

After last night I started monitoring for when I had a long queue time how people performed.  After 4 tries, and I will generalize, it seems that for players that have long queue times they fail far more quickly than those who had shorter wait.  Stupid theory, and impossible to prove, but when I had a long wait and other people bitch in /bg also about the queue we seem to fall apart very quickly (e.g. running all over, no D, etc.).

[Merusk]

Rampage BG (I'm on Whisperwind) queue times are usually just a couple of minutes. Rarely more than 4. Generally about 1-2 minutes.

As for Alliance winning in AV, well, overall I"d guess it's about 50%, maybe with a slight advantage to Alliance. There's a lot of stupidity Alliance side which usually results in Horde victories, but I've seen an awful lot of undergeared Horde lately as well. If I can get a guild premade team, we'll back-cap and that generally screws the Horde pretty badly. They're not used to seeing that sort of coordination Alliance-side--which is shameful when you think about it. Rampage Horde also tend to like turtles, which could go either way. An uncoordinated/clueless Alliance team will often lose in reinforcements, but an Alliance AV with a premade team or two will roll up a Horde turtle much more often than not.

AV weekend this coming weekend, so this stuff is on my mind...

Rampage is my primary battlegroup.  Oh lord I hate Rampage as Alliance.  it's always sucked ass, and it's the only BG I'm on where the Alliance consistently loses to either a Horde Turtle or blatant stupidity. Horde's begun pally tanking w/ at least 1 WM and Vann still up.. do we set up a tank before the game starts or ensure the healers are south? No, of course not.  we stand around waiting for both FW towers to cap and then wonder who's tanking and if there's healers.. and hey, how.. *Horde Wins*

[Shrike]

Yeah, there's been a lot of that. Usually, though, there's a horde recap team and since no one can be bothered to cap IBGY or reinforce IBT or TP, well...lose.

Horde generally has more premade teams and better coordination. When's the last time you saw a prot pally Alliance side? I can remember...it was three weeks ago and in the Eye. And she was horribly undergeared. I recall one guild AV outing where we backcapped both IW and SH bunkers, massacred about every hordie coming up that road, then lost with only two bunkers capped. We were like...damn, someone had some inspired tanking going on. Alliance simply doesn't field these sort of tanks in AV.

On the other hand a guildy last night was on his prot warrior (T5+ geared) and took on Drek with two BMs up...and won. Pretty cool and I wish I'd been in his instance to see it. Obviously, if you really want to rush Drek with BMs up you'll have to bring your own tanking team as a premade. Counting on the other Alliance just isn't going to happen. I've seen too many AVs lost even with all towers capped because no one could find even a crappy tank. Worse, I"ve had to tank Galv four times this last week as an enhance shaman because our lousy PuG tank couldn't hold aggro. That's simply pathetic--and all too typical.  I did have fun doing it, but stiill...

[Fordel]

On Nightfall, the Horde has taken to aggressively back-capping the IB area after we've killed Galv and the bulk of the force has moved on. The thing is, all this seems to accomplish is a delay of the game, since everyone who just got killed at the IB area recaps the IW area in turn.

This is assuming we don't have enough D at the IB area to begin with, which we often do.


So the score will still be the same, we'll still win, but it'll take 30 minutes instead of 11.

/shrug

[Merusk]

When's the last time you saw a prot pally Alliance side?

On the other hand a guildy last night was on his prot warrior (T5+ geared) and took on Drek with two BMs up...and won. Pretty cool and I wish I'd been in his instance to see it. Obviously, if you really want to rush Drek with BMs up you'll have to bring your own tanking team as a premade. Counting on the other Alliance just isn't going to happen. I've seen too many AVs lost even with all towers capped because no one could find even a crappy tank. Worse, I"ve had to tank Galv four times this last week as an enhance shaman because our lousy PuG tank couldn't hold aggro. That's simply pathetic--and all too typical.  I did have fun doing it, but stiill...

Last time I saw one was me, the last AV weekend. I'm not horribly undergeared for Prot, though.  Unless you consider anything >T6 undergeared. Been trying to get my priest some gear and honor prior to LK, though, so I haven't played the pally in a while.  Amusingly, there were actually too many tanks that weekend.  I fought for aggro on Galv against a few other pallies and a couple of wars on Drek.  Haven't played WoW in a while either, tho. Too busy getting ready for vacation, whee.

But yes, Alliance never takes tanks into AV, ever.  Even though everyone seems to understand it's a PvE rush, the  plate classes all seem to find it too beneath themselves to even bring a shield.

[Fordel]

We just have a druid do it. Always a few ferals ready and able.

Shit, I'll tank galv on my Moonkin.

[Shrike]

A good bear is hard to find, though. My last Galv tanking adventure came about when the pheralz drood couldn't hold aggro. Same old song. Shitty players and the shaman gets to tank. 

More seriously, I have seen some truly great bear tanks. I just don't tend to see them nearly often enough in my AV instances.

[Fordel]

The only issue I see regularly with tanking in AV, is the 2h warrior that thinks he's going to be a hero and taunts off the actual tank for no good reason.

[Ironwood]

In fairness, he goes down like a sack of spuds.

 

[Soln]

Some favorites AV quotes:

• "NORHT!@!!"
• "I gotta quest first"
• "We need SF GY first"
• "We only need 2 more for Bal"
• "Where is everyone?"
• "Where do I spend my honr points?"
• "Offense always w1ns."
• "L2P nub -- go D yrslf"

And the funniest line I heard at prep the other night: "Forgive us Father for the Fail we are about to Commit".    

Clownshoes.  Utter fools.  Consistently.

[Kail]

But yes, Alliance never takes tanks into AV, ever.  Even though everyone seems to understand it's a PvE rush, the  plate classes all seem to find it too beneath themselves to even bring a shield.

Well, if they're protection specced, why would they be there?  You'd need either mediocre PvE tanking gear to handle it (because there is no warrior set of PvP tanking gear, and the pally set of tanking gear is a joke) or some high-end PvP stuff, and you'd be getting mediocre PvP gear out of it.  So you'll get raped repeatedly by anyone on the opposite team for the off chance that you might get to tank the one guy in the instance who needs it (assuming the towers flip and your random healers don't suck etc.) and for this, you'll be rewarded with gear you won't use.

I have a Paladin and a Warrior, both, and running AV prot spec with them is just painful.  Granted, when specced for damage, they're not exactly PvP powerhouses either, but at least they aren't completely useless outside of the last minute of every other battle.

[K9]

Some favorites AV quotes:

• "NORHT!@!!"
• "I gotta quest first"
• "We need SF GY first"
• "We only need 2 more for Bal"
• "Where is everyone?"
• "Where do I spend my honr points?"
• "Offense always w1ns."
• "L2P nub -- go D yrslf"

And the funniest line I heard at prep the other night: "Forgive us Father for the Fail we are about to Commit".    

Clownshoes.  Utter fools.  Consistently.

And you're playing hordeside 

[Merusk]

But yes, Alliance never takes tanks into AV, ever.  Even though everyone seems to understand it's a PvE rush, the  plate classes all seem to find it too beneath themselves to even bring a shield.

Well, if they're protection specced, why would they be there?  You'd need either mediocre PvE tanking gear to handle it (because there is no warrior set of PvP tanking gear, and the pally set of tanking gear is a joke) or some high-end PvP stuff, and you'd be getting mediocre PvP gear out of it.  So you'll get raped repeatedly by anyone on the opposite team for the off chance that you might get to tank the one guy in the instance who needs it (assuming the towers flip and your random healers don't suck etc.) and for this, you'll be rewarded with gear you won't use.

I have a Paladin and a Warrior, both, and running AV prot spec with them is just painful.  Granted, when specced for damage, they're not exactly PvP powerhouses either, but at least they aren't completely useless outside of the last minute of every other battle.

Why is running AV prot spec painful?  If your answer is "Because other players waste me" you're doing AV wrong, sorry.  Any AV where I have more than 3-5 player kills is a failure and time is better served /afking and waiting out the 15 min debuff.

[Fordel]

Honestly, people trying to kill me when I'm on my Prot Pally is laughable. Not quite as laughable as when I try to kill them, but nearly so. I had a good stay of it recently, when I was gathering up points for my Paladins Season 2 Mace/Shield (some of the best upgrades for a Prot Paladin, especially those who don't do 25's)

Every game was about the same. I would crusader ride myself to Galv, usually be there 10-20 seconds ahead of everyone, begin tanking Galv if no one was around, or if Horde were camping, I would wait for a few more of my side to show up, then begin tanking Galv (its amazing how useless the Galv camping horde can be when Galv isn't loose to wipe out all our squishes). Since I was tanking Galv, he would be in a proper position and would not fear anyone outside the room, which in turn would mean he would be dead in under 20 seconds once everyone piled in.

From there I would head to IB Tower, or GY, or TP, sit on a flag and spam rank 1 consecrate for 4 minutes till it burned. 50/50 on a rogue trying his luck against me. Rogues being super easy to kill as a Prot paladin.

Then I would Crusader my way to FW Keep, doing a drive by on FW GY to train the guards away for some one slower then me to cap. By the time I would reach FW Keep, both FW Towers will have burned, or be dropping soon and RH will have just turned to us, so it's pretty much a Direct line into the keep and begin tanking Drek as soon as I see more then 3 people inside. Once again, since I'm tanking, the stupid fucking wolves will be stuck to me as will any Warmasters that haven't despawned yet, which will prevent them from being dragged outside and resetting Drek. Drek dead in 20-30 seconds.


400+ Honor for Alliance
200+ Honor for Horde
Entire game length, 11-12 minutes.



Now my Prot Pally in EoTS... that was pretty damn frustrating. At least I could be useful by just existing at a node, if nothing else.

[Merusk]

on a rogue trying his luck against me. Rogues being super easy to kill as a Prot paladin.

You ever have one just stop after about 10 seconds as if trying to figure out why he's suddenly at 50% and you're still at 90%+?  It's hilarious.

[Fordel]

All the time.

Visually there isn't anything to separate us from Holy Paladins until you actually engage in combat and Prot Paladins are just so rare in PvP to begin with. 

[Xanthippe]

On Nightfall, the Horde has taken to aggressively back-capping the IB area after we've killed Galv and the bulk of the force has moved on. The thing is, all this seems to accomplish is a delay of the game, since everyone who just got killed at the IB area recaps the IW area in turn.

This is assuming we don't have enough D at the IB area to begin with, which we often do.


So the score will still be the same, we'll still win, but it'll take 30 minutes instead of 11.

/shrug

I'm on Nightfall, horde on The Venture Co. 

I hate you alliance bastids!  When did you learn how to play AV!?!

[Shrike]

From what I've seen so far this weekend, it's still a work in progress.

You simply can't tell Alliance teams anything. They do not listen and/or do not comprehend. Then there's the undergeared factor on both sides. AV is really pretty much an opportunity to gear up with epic items. So you see a lot of folks fresh at 70 thinking this is a viable alternative to running Kara/Gruul's/Mags. In a sense, they're correct, but it's going to be a painful experience. Then there's just simple stupidity, which is in good supply Alliance-side. Some is just new folks learning, but some people just can't be educated. At all. Ever.

The worst two things I've seen regularly repeated this weekend are 1-5 going to Galv instead of doing what they're supposed to and 6-8 disappearing after IBT and TP towers are capped. Worst is the AWOL G8, which should be taking IBGY and breaking up horde attempts to rally near the two towers. Then there's total lack of coherent thought and determination in face of the inevitable Horde turtle. It's mind-boggling and frustrating.

I'm surprised Alliance is able to stay near 50% wins in AV on Rampage. Of course, I'm sure the Horde has it's own issues with idiocy. I've seen a few things they've done that really shocked me as well.

[Ironwood]

Inevitable Horde turtle ?

I fucking wish.

Our Battlegroup is a complete bunch of Horde retards.  Really.

Alliance kick our butts 95% of the time.

[K9]

From what I've seen so far this weekend, it's still a work in progress.

You simply can't tell Alliance teams anything. They do not listen and/or do not comprehend. Then there's the undergeared factor on both sides. AV is really pretty much an opportunity to gear up with epic items. So you see a lot of folks fresh at 70 thinking this is a viable alternative to running Kara/Gruul's/Mags. In a sense, they're correct, but it's going to be a painful experience. Then there's just simple stupidity, which is in good supply Alliance-side. Some is just new folks learning, but some people just can't be educated. At all. Ever.

The worst two things I've seen regularly repeated this weekend are 1-5 going to Galv instead of doing what they're supposed to and 6-8 disappearing after IBT and TP towers are capped. Worst is the AWOL G8, which should be taking IBGY and breaking up horde attempts to rally near the two towers. Then there's total lack of coherent thought and determination in face of the inevitable Horde turtle. It's mind-boggling and frustrating.

I'm surprised Alliance is able to stay near 50% wins in AV on Rampage. Of course, I'm sure the Horde has it's own issues with idiocy. I've seen a few things they've done that really shocked me as well.

The problem with the whole "group 1 do x, group 2 y" style of direction is that, while it has a noble motivation it ignores many blindingly obvious flaws. Mainly that group composition in BGs is random and horrible. If my priest is grouped with an all-green survival hunter, a fury warr and a couple of mages there's really no way in hell I'm going to either follow them anywhere or care what happens to them unless they have astonishingly good gear. Added to this is the fact that half the time the direction is awful. For instance the whole "Get Mine, LM and stables" mentality in AB always fails unless we sufficiently outgear the opposition to steamroll the horde off BS. Anyone who even thinks that we can ignore BS gets my automatic disrespect.

the other thing that annoys me is when these self-appointed leaders berate some group for not completing an objective they had been assigned, completely disregarding the possibility that the other side countered them. It's like the lone person at FW GY shouting "run north" to everyone stuck at SP GY when there's 15 horde sitting at IB killing the people trying to get through.

Frankly the better strategy is to try and find 4 other good players and make stuff happen. When the best 5-10 players in a BG coordinate they can ruin a disorganised opposition. You don't need a 40-man premade to win AV, 10 will do it easily. Just let everyone else get on with what they want to do imo.