Jay Wilson moving away from Diablo 3, Woo Ooo

[Malakili]

Plus you can quickly announce a D4 and, hat in hand, humbly admit mistakes were made but D4 will be the bees knees.  And the fanboys will lap it up.

This seems really unlikely to me.  They are going to release an expansion pack for D3, and if they fix itemization and drops the AH will be forgiven anyway. 

Not to mention Blizzard isn't exactly one to fire off sequels.

[Paelos]

They are pretty much waiting to overhaul itemization in the xpac (if they can), but the AH is going nowhere, especially the RMAH.

And just because you people believe you can't add enough gold sinks doesn't mean you should have none of consequence. You have to make efforts to stem the tide via sinks and itemization changes, and you have to make them obviously good ideas on PR and practice. Otherwise, the xpac will not sell.

[Setanta]

Not to mention Blizzard isn't exactly one to fire off sequels.

Ummmm what?

Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans -> Warcraft 2 + expansion -> Warcraft 3 + expansion -> World of Warcraft + 4 expansions
(Ignore the cancelled Warcraft: Lord of the Clans)

Starcraft + expansion -> Starcraft 2 + expansion + the eagerly awaited Revenge of the Metzen expansion on the cards
(Ignore the cancelled Starcraft: Ghost for console)

Diablo + Hellfire expansion (3rd party and shit) -> Diablo 2 + expansion -> Diablo with boobies + Return of the boobies hypothesised as a future expansion.

3 key IPs and sequels seem to be all Blizzard can do

[Ingmar]

Not to mention Blizzard isn't exactly one to fire off sequels.

Ummmm what?

Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans -> Warcraft 2 + expansion -> Warcraft 3 + expansion -> World of Warcraft + 4 expansions
(Ignore the cancelled Warcraft: Lord of the Clans)

Starcraft + expansion -> Starcraft 2 + expansion + the eagerly awaited Revenge of the Metzen expansion on the cards
(Ignore the cancelled Starcraft: Ghost for console)

Diablo + Hellfire expansion (3rd party and shit) -> Diablo 2 + expansion -> Diablo with boobies + Return of the boobies hypothesised as a future expansion.

3 key IPs and sequels seem to be all Blizzard can do

You read him wrong. He means they don't come out quickly.

[Ironwood]

and if they fix itemization and drops the AH will be forgiven anyway. 

I don't think you understand.

[Setanta]

Ahhh... public holiday + ambiguity = not reading for comprehension :)

Sadly, having re-read my post, I'm saddened by the fact that Blizzard can't produce anything new.

What's sadder is Metzen's influence on all of the re-hashed IPs.

[Malakili]

Not to mention Blizzard isn't exactly one to fire off sequels.

Ummmm what?

Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans -> Warcraft 2 + expansion -> Warcraft 3 + expansion -> World of Warcraft + 4 expansions
(Ignore the cancelled Warcraft: Lord of the Clans)

Starcraft + expansion -> Starcraft 2 + expansion + the eagerly awaited Revenge of the Metzen expansion on the cards
(Ignore the cancelled Starcraft: Ghost for console)

Diablo + Hellfire expansion (3rd party and shit) -> Diablo 2 + expansion -> Diablo with boobies + Return of the boobies hypothesised as a future expansion.

3 key IPs and sequels seem to be all Blizzard can do

They make sequels, but they don't make them FAST is my point.  I wager there is a 0% chance we will here about Diablo 4 in the next 3-4 years.

[Typhon]

Yeah what Simond said.  I bet Wilson sold Blizzard a bill of goods and when they finally figured out he didn't know what the fuck he was doing it was too late.  I'd be very amazed if he was still at Blizzard six months from now. 

I say keep the AH.  You've already stained the franchise, might as well make all that money you hungered for now.  Plus you can quickly announce a D4 and, hat in hand, humbly admit mistakes were made but D4 will be the bees knees.  And the fanboys will lap it up.

Given the length of time in development and the importance of the IP, this is simply not possible.  There were many senior-level eyes on this project, Jay wasn't operating in a vacuum, they liked what he was doing.  That said, you can bet the spineless pricks are now going to go with the story that, "Jay let us all down".  Because it protects "the brand" and they are soulless weasels (and humans love a scape goat).

That said, Jay's a fucking moron and I'm glad he's gone.

[Paelos]

Jay did let them down. Make no mistake about that. They may have agreed with him, but that only goes so far. When you take a leadership role and put yourself out there in an business venture, you are taking a large risk. There's a chance if you're successful, that you can make a name for yourself as THE guy in your field. Jay had that shot. If D3 had blown our doors off, Jay Wilson would have been able to command any job he wanted with a blank check.

However, if you fail? There's nobody willing to jump in that boat with you. You can delegate the work, but you can never ever delegate responsibility for a project failing. That's the risk you take. The rewards for being successful may be more about your team than you, but in the end you would reap the total credit. The same is true for the blame.

[Ironwood]

You think anyone in the industry thinks he failed because of the game itself ?

Don't be daft.  He probably hurt his career more with the 'fuck that loser' thing than actually releasing a pile of shit to wanking fanboys.

[Malakili]

You think anyone in the industry thinks he failed because of the game itself ?

Don't be daft.  He probably hurt his career more with the 'fuck that loser' thing than actually releasing a pile of shit to wanking fanboys.

I know you hate Diablo 3 on some kind of primal level Ironwood, but Diablo 3 isn't actually nearly as bad a game as you think it is, especially after the last 2-3 major patches.  There are serious problems which we all acknowledge, but you also have to at least admit that your depth of hatred for Diablo 3 doesn't really match the reality now. 

[Ironwood]

No, I don't.  I'm playing it right now.

It's shit.  I can't believe anyone makes a fantasy wizard this badly.

And still nothing drops.  Nothing.  NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING EVER.  But it's ok, because I'm breezing through these monsters with no problem at all.  Why ?  Went to Wal-Mart and bought myself some rares.

Fucking stupid game.


The reality is the same as it's ever been.  This game fails fundamentally and you simply can't patch it to be 'better' because what is wrong with it can't really be patched out.

Makes you hungry for nachos though.


Also, your post has nothing to do with Jay - You're actually making my point for me.  That tosser can go to interviews and point to PEOPLE LIKE YOU and get a job no problem.  Hell, even having worked on something this large is a massive point in his favour.  It's not so much the game that's fucked him up.  It's the fact that he appears to be a stupid, stupid shitweasel.

[Paelos]

You think anyone in the industry thinks he failed because of the game itself ?

Don't be daft.  He probably hurt his career more with the 'fuck that loser' thing than actually releasing a pile of shit to wanking fanboys.

Yes, I do think that. It's why he's been moved to the side and eventually will be let go once the dust settles. The PR stuff doesn't help, but it's not the reason. If the game was successful, that same PR comment would be meaningless, and have no effect on his career.

People may take a chance on him again, but it won't be for a good long while. His name is synonymous with failure amongst the customers. You don't want someone in the lead who is even mildly divisive in name only when it comes to releasing a new product.

[Malakili]

No, I don't.  I'm playing it right now.

It's shit.  I can't believe anyone makes a fantasy wizard this badly.

And still nothing drops.  Nothing.  NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING EVER.  But it's ok, because I'm breezing through these monsters with no problem at all.  Why ?  Went to Wal-Mart and bought myself some rares.

Fucking stupid game.


The reality is the same as it's ever been.  This game fails fundamentally and you simply can't patch it to be 'better' because what is wrong with it can't really be patched out.

This is why I can't take you seriously when you talk about this game.  If you seriously think the game is the same today as it was 8 months ago, you have no idea what you're talking about.  Maybe you aren't at end game and the changes aren't as obvious during leveling? Also, my point has everything to do with Jay - namely that even though the game doesn't meet expectations it is hardly a big enough failure that he shouldn't be able to get a job in the industry.  That was the point. Either way, I'm done.  I should know better than to mention anything positive about D3 while you're around.

[Simond]

Went to Wal-Mart and bought myself some rares.

Why?

[Paelos]

Why ask why? Ironwood completely hates the game and nothing will change that. He's entitled to his hatred, rational or otherwise.

I do believe the list of Ironwood's in regards to Diablo is small. I think the majority of users are disappointed with the game, but they don't see it as a complete disaster beyond salvage.

[Ironwood]

Went to Wal-Mart and bought myself some rares.

Why?

Why what ?

Nothing drops that upgrades.  So you go to the AH because of the enormous frustration of the drops still being utter fuck (and, sure, you can argue that they aren't and, well, you'd not be playing the same game I am) and the only things that are really selling are the ones that are built to speed you through it and they're cheap.  So you get them. 

What don't you understand about why ?

Or are you one of these fucking loonies that thinks I should just wait till something drops that's not utter and complete vendor trash ?  Because 98% still is.  Seriously, I've been playing my level 62 Barb today and my 35 Wizard and I've not kept A SINGLE THING.  Everything has been vendored because it's crap and does nothing for me, which is totally fucking strange, since my Wizards gear is FUCKING HORRIBLE.  The only vaguely interesting thing that dropped in the 3 hours was a staff of herding, normal version.  And what the fuck do I want that for ?

While I'm sure that there are people that will swallow the shitfest that is D3, it's not even remotely what it should be considering Who Made It, How Long it Took and How Much was Spent as well as How Much It Cost.  This is a game that cost 120quid for two copies and was a shameful, shameful dissapointment.

And 8 months on, it may be a slightly different game for you, mate, but it's still not even remotely as good as some of the fucking indie dev barely cost shit that's available out there.

(Oh and Mal the 'You aren't at End Game or Leet, so you clearly don't get it' :  Gratz on wading through that shite multiple times.  I did too, but clearly you saw the Vision while you did it.  Kudos.)


And Monkey, there needs to be 3 fundamental changes to make it even remotely interesting to me.  1 - Remove the AH  2- Remove the Always online 3 - Have actual interesting shit drop that makes your character feel in any way improved.

The classes could be made interesting too, since the skill system is shit and for at least 2 of the classes, the actual skills are shit too.  I still can't believe I'm firing fucking lasers as a Wizard.  It's so stupid.

What really burns about these 3 changes is the 'We Couldn't Possibly, Except For Playstation.' Which is something we all saw coming but were told 'don't be daft, children, trust us.'

[Paelos]

I think 2 and 3 will happen within the next year.

I think the AH is polarizing, but I really enjoy it, so I hope they don't pull it.

[Malakili]

Goooood goooood let the hate flow through you.

[Ingmar]

You think anyone in the industry thinks he failed because of the game itself ?

Don't be daft.  He probably hurt his career more with the 'fuck that loser' thing than actually releasing a pile of shit to wanking fanboys.

I doubt that hurt his career in the slightest, except in terms of getting hired by people personally connected to the loser.

[Tannhauser]

Goooood goooood let the hate flow through you.

Once more the white knight mounts his charger.

[Ingmar]

Goooood goooood let the hate flow through you.

Once more the white knight mounts his charger.

 

There is maybe no dumber comeback on the internet. Oh no, someone is defending a game he enjoys.

[Malakili]

Goooood goooood let the hate flow through you.

Once more the white knight mounts his charger.

 

There is maybe no dumber comeback on the internet. Oh no, someone is defending a game he enjoys.

The funny thing is that in the last few posts my "defense" of the game is: "It has a lot of problems but it isn't nearly the utter disaster Ironwood thinks it is, and it has improved over time."   If that is "white knighting" then I guess I'm a white knight.

[Tannhauser]

But attacking said game is verboten eh?  Why is Mal's opinion valid and Iron's isn't?  

OK I understand now.  Should we stop not liking what you like? 

[Malakili]

But attacking said game is verboten eh?  Why is Mal's opinion valid and Iron's isn't?  

OK I understand now.  Should we stop not liking what you like? 

Most of us who LIKE and PLAY the game have attacked/criticized it on these very boards from time to time.  I think the response here is particularly to Ironwood's somewhat bizarre (in my opinion) visceral hatred of the game. And even then, I'm pretty sure none of us have told him to stop posting or something.

Keep in mind, this discussion spawned from a discussion of Jay Wilson's future.  We are (or at least were) mainly pointing out that Diablo 3 isn't such a bad project to have headed up that he is going to be out of work forever.  I think that is hardly a stretch.

[Ingmar]

But attacking said game is verboten eh?  Why is Mal's opinion valid and Iron's isn't?  

OK I understand now.  Should we stop not liking what you like? 

If Mal had used that goddamn retarded "white knight" term, I would have crawled up his ass too, have no fear.

[Paelos]

Besides, I just said Ironwood is entitled to his hatred of the game. It's a flawed game that fell short of a many peoples expectations.

I think Mala's opinion is what you'd most likely see from somebody with 20k elite kills into the game. Obviously they wouldn't play it that long if it didn't have some appeal, but I don't think that necessarily puts them in a large group either.

Then there's the healthy middle of people who were disappointed, put the game down, and will look at it again each patch to see if it's time to jump back in. After all, there's no fee to play the damn thing.

[Simond]

Went to Wal-Mart and bought myself some rares.

Why?

Why what ?

Nothing drops that upgrades.  So you go to the AH because of the enormous frustration of the drops still being utter fuck (and, sure, you can argue that they aren't and, well, you'd not be playing the same game I am) and the only things that are really selling are the ones that are built to speed you through it and they're cheap.  So you get them. 

What don't you understand about why ?

So what would you do if the same happened in another roguelike?

This is a game that cost 120quid for two copies and was a shameful, shameful dissapointment.

Sucks to be you. I got it for free.

I still can't believe I'm firing fucking lasers as a Wizard.  It's so stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fild_YVMAtA

[Fabricated]

I've had D3 uninstalled for months now and feel no pressing need or desire to play it. I don't give a shit what they patch the game into; I don't really want to try it again. Maybe with the expansion, but even then probably no.

That's how bad D3 is. I don't give a fuck if they fixed it. They put me off it already. I've moved on.

[Ironwood]

All very valid opinions. 

The trouble is, Fabricated's opinion is like mine, except instead of just D3, I direct that at the entire company.  Blizzard have pretty much lost me as a consumer of their brand.  This is, believe it or not, an extremely bad thing that was hugely unlikely to happen to me having been with them since RocknRoll racing.  I also don't believe I'm the only one, as John Lennon would say.

This is why I think people like Jay are soooo much worse for companies than they seem.  It's not really about the 'game' as such;  it's about the sheer value destruction that a top talent can wreak if they don't understand what the brand actually IS.

Blizzard, for me, was always about enjoyment, value for money and honesty.  All 3 things that started getting shaky a while ago, but D3 and Jay in particular, made it quite clear that they not only don't GET anymore, but they actively DON'T CARE ABOUT.  The design decisions, the product, the very rationale they use to put the PR out there, all utterly broken.

Please also bear in mind that the irreverent Utter Fucking Asshole that you see me play here is not exactly who I am in real life and, in real life, I'd fire someone like Jay in about six months tops.  Because they don't get it.

[Pennilenko]

Please also bear in mind that the irreverent Utter Fucking Asshole that you see me play here is not exactly who I am in real life...

I always knew deep down inside you were a warm squishy teddy bear.

[Paelos]

I would have fired most of the top people at Blizzard by now. Rob Pardo, Metzen, Wilson, Greg Street, and Chilton have done more to destroy Blizzard's brand in the past 5 years than anyone at Activision.

Pardo in particular should be the first to get fired. His fingers are all over D3, and he's the Chief Creative Officer at Blizzard. If anything has been a problem, it's the creative aspect of these games. They aren't. At all.

[Ironwood]

Indeed.

[Pennilenko]

The top never gets the hammer, because the top, in any industry, is populated by asshole man children that never take responsibility for anything they do wrong.

[Fabricated]

Also the gaming press is the most useless of all press.

"Playing 3 hours of this customized copy of the game provided for me by the developer has given me great insight as to how good the game is! Also I will so totally continue to get these pre-release preview copies if I savage the game and give it the rating it deserves!" - all gaming journalism