Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Threash]

I'm with IW and Haemish on this one.  Even reading the books they fail to explain exactly WHY Stannis is mucking about with Melisandre and R'hllor in the first place.   The trite explanation Melisandre gives is complete garbage.

I think the fact that she actually DOES have power is a pretty damn good explanation for why he is with her.

[Slayerik]

I'm with IW and Haemish on this one.  Even reading the books they fail to explain exactly WHY Stannis is mucking about with Melisandre and R'hllor in the first place.   The trite explanation Melisandre gives is complete garbage.

Yeah, besides the army of shadow assassins she can shit out and the great head. (Cause I sure as hell wouldn't be putting my dick anywhere near that vag!)

[Threash]

Wait, you don't think squeezing shadow assassins out of her hoo-hah to commit fratricide rather than fight a pitched battle to be pretty fucking evil? Seriously?

Yeah, I'm not against assassination (you should see my linkedin history) but there's a difference between a dagger in the night or poison in the wine and actually giving birth to an avatar of hate.

And, personally, I think it moves the needle slightly above 'creepy' on the omgwhatthefuckometer.

Also, my original point was that you simply can't TRUST anyone who would do that.  There's no fucking point being allies with them.  None.

I don't see why not.  So she picked the right religion and that makes her untrustworthy?

[Ironwood]

Not sure if serious.

[Arthur_Parker]

I always thought Stannis was easy to understand, his brother was King, as the elder of the two remaining brothers he's rightful heir and therefore King.  He's all black and white, nothing he can do about it, all he has to decide is if he wishes to win or lose.  If it was just him he probably wouldn't be bothered but he can't abide traitors and by definition anyone opposing him is a traitor.

The magic is just a means to an end, he does have the best interests of the Kingdom at heart, as long as he doesn't have to make friends or be nice to anyone.

[Threash]

Right, there is nothing inherently evil about what she did.  She didn't have to sacrifice babies or virgins or even a freaking goat to pop out her shadow thingie, she just fucked the guy.  And Stannis gave Renly ample opportunity to surrender.  Just declaring it evil because it looked scary seems a bit silly to me.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well I thought it was evil too, so I'd take issue with the "right religion" comment.  I was just commenting on how limited the options were for Stannis once he found out Joffrey wasn't Robert's son.

[Threash]

Dany burned someone alive in order to hatch monsters and nobody immediately dubbed her evil.

[Merusk]

Right, there is nothing inherently evil about what she did.  She didn't have to sacrifice babies or virgins or even a freaking goat to pop out her shadow thingie, she just fucked the guy.  And Stannis gave Renly ample opportunity to surrender.  Just declaring it evil because it looked scary seems a bit silly to me.

Ah..

Dany burned someone alive in order to hatch monsters and nobody immediately dubbed her evil.

A 'justified' death for her murder of Dany's  unborn child, Drogo and making Dany Barren.  Let's not forget overarching themes and traditional fantasy memes when looking at specifics.  Just because Martin enjoys twisting or perverting a lot them doesn't mean he doesn't follow some of them.

And while I see the logic of siding with Mel it doesn't mean it fits the character of Stannis. Sure, Mel gets results; but based on what you know of Stannis does it make sense for HIM to side with her?  No.  In the books Davos ponders this several times but always discards the thought because "he is my king and I am only meant to follow" or something like that.  Has he done it in the series?

[HaemishM]

Right, there is nothing inherently evil about what she did.  She didn't have to sacrifice babies or virgins or even a freaking goat to pop out her shadow thingie, she just fucked the guy.  And Stannis gave Renly ample opportunity to surrender.  Just declaring it evil because it looked scary seems a bit silly to me.

If the sight of something happening is enough to make a strong man like Davos shit his pants with fucking fear, I'm thinking, Yeah, that's probably fucking evil. It's like death magic, or necrophilia. Maybe you could explain it away, rationalize it into something understandable, but really? Fucking a dead body? Raising soulless zombies from the grave to do your bidding? There's just some things that even in a fantasy world should not be considered as not-evil.

Fucking your sister to birth a bastard king, 3-ways with the self-proclaimed king, his wife and her brother so the king can get it up long enough to produce an heir, tying a bucket of crazed rats to a dude's stomach then lighting the bucket on fire so the rat chews his way through screaming dude's innard, and raising mystical shadow assassins out of king spunk? I'm thinking those could all classify as fucking evil no matter how you rationalize it or dress it up with religious overtones.

[Arthur_Parker]

Dany burned someone alive in order to hatch monsters and nobody immediately dubbed her evil.

The person she did that to had been saved by Daenerys and still pissed her off by showing how poisonous and double edged blood magic was, she dabbled with the dark arts while Daenerys was in a "I don't give a fuck" frame of mind when she did it.  I think intent and context are important.

[Threash]

 I think intent and context are important.

Well yeah, that is in fact exactly my point.  You guys are saying what she did is inherently evil without any regard to intent and context.  And Davos shit his pants because that shit was fucking scary and magic is not something people see every day.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm not speaking for anyone else but I think the magic is clearly evil,

[Viin]

If I remember right from the books, I don't believe Stannis knew what she was doing until after the fact. (Nor do I think he knew *how* it happened, ie shadow person thingy).

[HaemishM]

I'm not ascribing evil to her MOTIVES, or to Stannis for that matter. But what she did? Yeah, that's fucking evil. You can do evil for good reasons, still don't make that shit not evil.

EDIT: Wanting to avoid a costly invasion that might kill millions? Noble. Doing so by dropping a nuclear bomb on a crowded city? EVIL.

[Ironwood]

Dany burned someone alive in order to hatch monsters and nobody immediately dubbed her evil.

Wait, what ?

[Arthur_Parker]

She tied the witch/priestess up during this bit, in the fire.

[Ironwood]

Well, yeah, but I take issue with the whole 'She did it to release the Dragons'.

Context really IS fucking important.

[Bunk]

Yea, there was no intent to "wake dragons" in that scene. The intent was to commit suicide and join her vegetable husband in the afterlife, and she was bringing the wise woman along for the ride out of revenge.

[Ironwood]

Indeed !  That's what I saw too !!

[Threash]

Which doesn't exactly make it any less evil.  Anyways since i am obviously in the minority in thinking there is nothing inherently evil about shadow babies i will drop it.

[Ghambit]

I'm with IW and Haemish on this one.  Even reading the books they fail to explain exactly WHY Stannis is mucking about with Melisandre and R'hllor in the first place.   The trite explanation Melisandre gives is complete garbage.

Uhh, yes they do.  Stannis' wife was a bit of a lost cause and Stannis near hated her, although she was the reason R'hllor was even considered (as it was her belief).  In comes a hawt redheaded priestess and voila.  Mucking about commences.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well, yeah, but I take issue with the whole 'She did it to release the Dragons'.

Context really IS fucking important.

Oh right I see what you mean, ok, carry on.

[Ghambit]

Well, yeah, but I take issue with the whole 'She did it to release the Dragons'.

Context really IS fucking important.

Oh right I see what you mean, ok, carry on.

[Rishathra]

Her speech before she walked into the flames also suggested she was confident she would walk back out.  It was everyone else who assumed she was committing suicide.

[Arthur_Parker]

I think she was completely nuts at the time, but both other view points have merit.

[Phred]

I'm with IW and Haemish on this one.  Even reading the books they fail to explain exactly WHY Stannis is mucking about with Melisandre and R'hllor in the first place.   The trite explanation Melisandre gives is complete garbage.

[Merusk]

Yeah, I know, but Ned never took-on the Seven and Caitlin never accepted the Old Gods, so "uh.. because of his wife" isn't going to work for me.   Not for as stubborn and prideful a man as Stannis is supposed to be.

[Rendakor]

All other things being the same, if the shadow-baby had been a glowing white creature, would it still have been evil? How about a red fire creature? I really didn't take that as an inherently evil act.

Also I assume Stannis had to know what was happening, particularly because in the book:

[Tale]

Yea, there was no intent to "wake dragons" in that scene. The intent was to commit suicide and join her vegetable husband in the afterlife, and she was bringing the wise woman along for the ride out of revenge.

It was entirely about hatching the three dragons. Dany often devises one solution to multiple problems. She had learned that "only death can pay for life", wanted revenge on Mirri Maz Duur for killing Drogo, needed a funeral pyre for Drogo, had been looking for a way to hatch the eggs, had figured out that unlike her brother Viserys she was an actual Targaryen dragon immune to heat (there are many cues throughout the first series - a too-hot bath, handling heated items including the eggs, Viserys reacts to heat while she doesn't), and she hatched the dragons in front of her khalasar to win their devotion and begin her campaign.

[Threash]

Actually i am kind of confused as to where exactly Davos and Melisandre were sneaking into.  Renly's army was at a camp, surrounded by tents, on their way to King's Landing.  Not in a castle that needed sneaking into.

[Ironwood]

Well, yeah, but I take issue with the whole 'She did it to release the Dragons'.

Context really IS fucking important.

Oh right I see what you mean, ok, carry on.

Please bear in mind I've only seen the TV Show.  And that really made it all look like an accident.

[Threash]

In the show the witch tells dany she won't scream and dany answers "i don't need your screams, just your blood".  After the whole "only blood can pay for life" conversation they had that sounds like there was clearly some magical intent behind the whole thing.  She could've been trying to bring back Drogo also though.

[Ironwood]

Anorexic.

This is like the Animated Lord of the Rings which pretty much assumed the audience knew the books.  Boromir striding about saying 'Why all this talk of destroying this ring' when no-one on screen has mentioned it at all.

As I say, I really don't think it was terribly explicit, nor well done if that was the intention of the scene.

[Merusk]

In the show the witch tells dany she won't scream and dany answers "i don't need your screams, just your blood".  After the whole "only blood can pay for life" conversation they had that sounds like there was clearly some magical intent behind the whole thing.  She could've been trying to bring back Drogo also though.

See, I always took that as a vengeance talk.  "I don't need you to suffer, only to die."