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Topic: It's not you, it's me. (Read 188685 times)
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
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Conversely for me they're one of the biggest reasons I quit during beta. It's probably mostly just 7 year burnout, and I've liked all the class changes they made in general up to that point, but for the first time I was feeling a little NGE'd by this one.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Setanta
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1517
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I've never found tanking boring.
But since MoP rolled around I find it un-fun on my Druid and Pally and not as much fun on my DK. My warrior hasn't left 85 yet so I can't comment on it.
Given that fun is why I play the game and that tanking is the most fun I have got out of the game over the years up to MoP I foresee a problem and I'm logging less and less.
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"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Yep I'm already down to logging in one day a week. I'm playing more D3 and Skyrim atm.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10131
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This isn't really any different from how any of the other roles already function though. If you don't do your rotation use your cooldowns correctly, you will do less damage/healing to the detriment of your group. It doesn't matter if you're facerolling keys for LFR or Heroic 5-mans, but it's going to cost your group if you try it in CMs or Normal+ raids. I don't instantly die on my Monk (the squishiest tank if you aren't using your active mitigation) if I let shuffle fall off or don't use a damage cooldown for a telegraphed high-damage attack, it just stresses healers further. Similarly, my group doesn't wipe if I spill coffee and stop dpsing for 20 seconds when DPS-spec, but doing so prolongs the fight which stresses healers. Why would you expect tanks to work differently in this regard?
The changes bring tanks into parity with other roles. There is now a palpable sense to gear progression for tanking, and a feeling that what you are doing personally in any given fight actually impacts the success of your group. It's a blessing for raids where tanking was a very boring and trivial role.
I get that some people don't want any added stress when tanking but it's only something you even have to deal with if you decide you want to tackle more serious content. Just like healers or DPS, more serious content requires more serious individual effort.
If you couldn't tell, I really like the tanking changes. It made a boring role fun again.
You're actually a pretty good indicator: if you like a change, chances are the majority of the player base hates it.
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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Fabricated
Moderator
Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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I don't mind it so far on my warrior but I'm not raiding. If deciding to shield barrier over shield block or vice versa and choosing wrong gets you killed reasonably often I'd be annoyed. Is it that bad?
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Not that I've seen. Hardest thing about tanking is the same as ever : Other people being cocks and trying to tell you how to tank, despite nothing being wrong.
HURRY, HURRY, HURRY, BIG PULL, PULL MORE, OMG WHY SO AGGRO, FFS TANK, HEAL MORE, MANA BREAK, FASTER, SLOWER, HARDER, HARDER NOW THERE NOW THERE FUCK ME YOU BASTARD...
Ahem. You get the idea. I don't tank anymore. People are such cunts.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Yep it's not worth the effort unless you have a group of regulars you like. And even then, the LFR rewards are usually better and easier.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742
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"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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And WoW still doesn't have fucking last names.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Raguel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1413
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OT but the last panel still defines me. I never really liked crafting or raiding. SWToR class storylines comes the closest to what IMO are QUESTS (everything else should be labeled "busywork" or "tasks" )
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Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590
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Original wow felt a lot more "questy" than it does now, a lot less handholding even if some things were still kill/collect they felt more immersive.
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~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
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Ivanneth
Terracotta Army
Posts: 75
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Regarding active mitgation:
Blizzard killed my interest in WoW with short, "maintain this buff or you're not being optimal!" abilities - regardless of class or spec. It reminds me too much of how horrifying it was to maintain 5 minute paladin buffs on 39 people in Molten Core. ::shudder::
It's not quite the same thing, and I know some people see it as more engaging and fun, but it makes the game feel like work to me. If I have to constantly watch the buffs I have up to make sure that x, y and/or z never drop off then I'm not really playing the game, I'm watching counters tick down.
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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Yes, exactly my problem with rogues.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Warrior shouts and banners are now like that as well. I'm not a fan. Just give me a buff and be done with it. Why the hell do we need to even have timers on these things? They should last until death or logout, and adjusted accordingly.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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cmlancas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2511
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Yes, exactly my the problem with rogues.
FIFY.
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f13 Street Cred of the week: I can't promise anything other than trauma and tragedy. -- schild
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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Regarding active mitgation:
Blizzard killed my interest in WoW with short, "maintain this buff or you're not being optimal!" abilities - regardless of class or spec. It reminds me too much of how horrifying it was to maintain 5 minute paladin buffs on 39 people in Molten Core. ::shudder::
It's not quite the same thing, and I know some people see it as more engaging and fun, but it makes the game feel like work to me. If I have to constantly watch the buffs I have up to make sure that x, y and/or z never drop off then I'm not really playing the game, I'm watching counters tick down.
I get this complaint. "Maintaining a bunch of buffs" is what killed Warden tanking in LOTRO and Rogue tanking in Rift for me. As far as I know, this complaint could really only be applied to monk tanking, I don't believe any other tanks are encouraged to keep a buff up for the duration of the fight. It doesn't bug me on the monk either because it's only one buff that is quickly applied and maintaining happens to be your primary source of damage and your main spend of chi. It isn't something you have to keep juggling on the side, it's your focus. Unlike the Warden and Rogue tanking, I also don't feel like I'm going to die instantly if the buff falls off. It would be totally obnoxious without a mod to track it though. Reliance on mods is a major problem with monk tanking in general. I also did not mind maintaining buffs on my rogue in Cata (S&D, Rupture) so who knows.
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Zetor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3269
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Well, according to the monk forums, anything under 100% uptime makes you a scrub. Monk tanking as a whole is waaaay too buttonmashy for my tastes -- and if you happen to get stunned, you get blown up SUPER fast. By the way, screw those saurok in mogu castle that shank you for 5sec at a time. Yeah I know you can kite when you see the castbar or stun them... still, screw them! I save Xuen for those pulls so he gets to eat the stuns instead of me.
Also, Savage Roar on feral druids (the wotlk version, especially). Boo hiss, etc.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 11:25:04 AM by Zetor »
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SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4035
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Regarding active mitgation:
Blizzard killed my interest in WoW with short, "maintain this buff or you're not being optimal!" abilities - regardless of class or spec. It reminds me too much of how horrifying it was to maintain 5 minute paladin buffs on 39 people in Molten Core. ::shudder::
It's not quite the same thing, and I know some people see it as more engaging and fun, but it makes the game feel like work to me. If I have to constantly watch the buffs I have up to make sure that x, y and/or z never drop off then I'm not really playing the game, I'm watching counters tick down.
I get this complaint. "Maintaining a bunch of buffs" is what killed Warden tanking in LOTRO and Rogue tanking in Rift for me. As far as I know, this complaint could really only be applied to monk tanking, I don't believe any other tanks are encouraged to keep a buff up for the duration of the fight. It doesn't bug me on the monk either because it's only one buff that is quickly applied and maintaining happens to be your primary source of damage and your main spend of chi. It isn't something you have to keep juggling on the side, it's your focus. Unlike the Warden and Rogue tanking, I also don't feel like I'm going to die instantly if the buff falls off. It would be totally obnoxious without a mod to track it though. Reliance on mods is a major problem with monk tanking in general. I also did not mind maintaining buffs on my rogue in Cata (S&D, Rupture) so who knows. Not sure about paladin or Warrior, but as a druid, unless you are maintaining as near maximum uptime on Savage defense as possible, you are just being a massive Heal Sponge. Savage Defense accounts for 45% of my dodge, or almost 70+ % of my "active" base mitigation (that being dodge). Without Savage Defense, I sit at around 14% dodge. If i am not keeping SD up as much as possible, i am failing pretty hard at preventing damage.
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 04:44:19 PM by SurfD »
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Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
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Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742
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Welcome to how DKs tank. (Also I'm still quietly amused that the comic artist in my last post a) set the EQ panel in a real and recognisable EQ zone, and b) bothered to draw an EQ gnome rather than a WoW one).
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"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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Not sure about paladin or Warrior, but as a druid, unless you are maintaining as near maximum uptime on Savage defense as possible, you are just being a massive Heal Sponge. Savage Defense accounts for 45% of my dodge, or almost 70+ % of my "active" base mitigation (that being dodge). Without Savage Defense, I sit at around 14% dodge. If i am not keeping SD up as much as possible, i am failing pretty hard at preventing damage. Warriors have a very similar spell in Shield Block which has the same exact duration and 'charge cooldown' as Savage Defense . I my mind, these aren't really buffs that you are supposed to maintain 100% the time (because that is not possible). They are also not abilities that you necessarily hit on cooldown, because you are not 'wasting' the ability by not clicking it, you continue to accumulate charges even if you already have one (think roll if you play a monk, or feathers if you play a priest). In my mind it's a pretty big distinction because these are abilities that, while regular parts of your rotation, are meant to be used intelligently and not "always". I don't know if that is the reality, but it seems clear that you would be better off spending rage on frenzied regen instead of savage defense depending on what the enemy you are fighting is doing (spell damage, unavoidable attacks, etc.) If I have to think about what to use a little bit at any given moment, it doesn't feel like busywork like Warden buffs did. You also don't have paper-armor mitigation if the ability isn't being used.
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SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4035
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Well, druids are fairly binary as far as the Savage Defense VS Frenzied Regen thing. With the glyph on FR it is basicly a question of Dodge VS Physical attack bosses or FR vs Magical Attack bosses. Or on the very rare occasions where you get hit for "massive" amounts of damage in slow hits (like Impale on Madness) you use unglyphed FR because you pop it immediately after the hit for a huge self heal. Other then that, there is no real "thought" behind these. You try to keep one or the other up as much as you can depending on the fight, otherwise you are just a Big Heal sponge with 13-14% avoidance and a lot of armor / hp.
Going for long periods of a mele damage heavy fight without SD on is a loss of 45% of your dodge. I cant think of a single DPS class that would lose that much of an equivilent DPS boosting stat for not maintaining a buff. Not having it (or FR) up as frequently as possible is the Druid Tank equivilent of a Hunter dpsing without a pet.
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Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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I play both as tanks and giving us a 60 rage thing we really need to use all the time while taking away rage from being hit is FUCKING CLOWNSHOES.
Another reason I don't tank is the healers complaining about this without understanding that my rage is sometimes better spent in keeping shit off them.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742
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Re: Rep - http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/248597-tabard-rep-from-dungeons-now/I guess you might like this... The developers are currently planning to include bonus reputation that can be earned via scenarios and dungeons. It doesn't necessarily mean it'll be through tabards and in the exact same way as back in the days, but sounds close enough to what you want!
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"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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They are slowly getting it. Again.
I'm really shocked they have to relearn what's fun for people every single expansion. I mean I know some of it is trial and error on the populace, but did they really expect unending dailies would end well?
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Zetor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3269
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Or - to be more cynical - they know exactly what they're doing, and are staggering their "bring the fun back" patches to squeeze as many sub months out of their content as possible.
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Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742
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They are slowly getting it. Again. And like I've said previously, at least this time it's weeks and months rather than months and years before they admit they screwed up. And speaking of Blizzard working faster:
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"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4035
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Probably going to be on that island that is on the Pandaria map but not accessable (up to the north west of Kun-Lai).
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Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
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Given where the tomb was that would make sense. Good call.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Or - to be more cynical - they know exactly what they're doing, and are staggering their "bring the fun back" patches to squeeze as many sub months out of their content as possible.
I thought about that, but I usually assume that it's not malicious, calculated intent when stupidity fills the gap nicely.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Ashamanchill
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2274
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Never ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to incompetence.
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A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart. Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Bingo.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Azazel
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Yep it's not worth the effort unless you have a group of regulars you like. And even then, the LFR rewards are usually better and easier.
Nod, I've stopped bothering to tank. I just go fury 95% of the time now.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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He was a fuckwad who didn't know basic class mechanics when hunter lead, why expect him to not be so when he's got to pay attention to more than one or two classes?
Hes' a tool and bad for the game. I've said it since WOTLK, despite Ingmar's insistence to the contrary. WOTLK was in the bag before he took his current position and every bullshit idea since then can be laid at the feet of that marine biologist cum game developer.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Pretty much.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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