(UO expansion) You'll all scoff, but I'm still going to jizz.

[Venkman]

I agree on the sequel thing. MMOGs come with sequels built in. Nothing is sacred in these games, from what the world looks like (what engine number is EQ1 on now?) to how it plays (from the tame, like EQ1 to the, err, not, like NGE). Sequels are launched when a company needs a bunch of new cash made on box sales and hopes to grab a lot of players who've never played before. But what's been shown is that box sale expansions can also drag back a lot of former players, and advertise to those anew, if done right. Of course, the "done right" part includes not focusing exclusively on your current players to the detriment of the game being attractive to new ones.

Do EQ & EQ2 combined have more subs than EQ would alone if the sequel had never been created? More than likely.

If you take the current state of both games (EQ1=200k, EQ2=175k) and combine their subscription counts (based on MMOGchart, so take this for what it's worth), they don't come anywhere close to what EQ1 was at it's height (550k).

This doesn't answer whether EQ1 would have suffered handily at the launch of FFXI, WoW and GW. Nor does it answer whether EQ2 cannabalized EQ1 no matter how hard SOE tried to spin the message. But it does show that a heck of a lot of cash was spent for not even a return they achieved with the "broken" patchwork of bailing wire and duct tape that was EQ1.

[Morat20]

The "updated" graphics really won't mean anything to me. Unless I can pull the view down into a 1st-person or good 3rd-person MMOG, it'll still just be a 2d ISO game.

And all that makes me think of is: "Why the fuck don't they make games like X-Com anymore? Fuck 3D engines -- I want turn-based, squad-based tactical combat with fucking aliens.

[WindupAtheist]

In any case, I'd be willing to go back to UO for those times I don't feel like playing anything else, but it STILL has a lot of barrier to entry stuff in it as far as I can tell. The UI is SHIT, total utter shit. It's way more outdated than even the graphics. They also need to up the user friendliness of UO by about 10x and remove a lot of the tedium.

Agreed.  I gotta figure this is half the reason they're re-doing the client and not just pushing out a graphical update.  While the old graphics may have "charm" to certain people, the old UI is just a disgrace and needs to go.

[HaemishM]

The "updated" graphics really won't mean anything to me. Unless I can pull the view down into a 1st-person or good 3rd-person MMOG, it'll still just be a 2d ISO game.

And all that makes me think of is: "Why the fuck don't they make games like X-Com anymore? Fuck 3D engines -- I want turn-based, squad-based tactical combat with fucking aliens.

I really could give two shits if it's 3d or 2d so long as it's good and new. UO is not new, and an interface upgrade is mandatory. But even then, the game is creaking with such age, layered on expansions, ninjas, ninja elves, samurai ninja elves and robot samurai ninja elves with steam engines, it's going to have to go the transformative route to make me even consider it. A 3D look to an isometric 2d world? Not interested. But if they took the same game and made it fully, 1st person 3D, I'd consider it.

And gave all the elves AIDS.

[Morat20]

I really could give two shits if it's 3d or 2d so long as it's good and new. UO is not new, and an interface upgrade is mandatory. But even then, the game is creaking with such age, layered on expansions, ninjas, ninja elves, samurai ninja elves and robot samurai ninja elves with steam engines, it's going to have to go the transformative route to make me even consider it. A 3D look to an isometric 2d world? Not interested. But if they took the same game and made it fully, 1st person 3D, I'd consider it.

And gave all the elves AIDS.

You know, that makes me wonder -- everyone always clamors for more in these games. We always want more quests, more room, more depth, more choices, more variety, more loot, more places to go, more zones, more and more and more.....

But I don't think that's true. Take UO -- there's an entire generation of MMORPG gamers that have never played it. Pretend, for a moment, that the gameplay would be appealing (let's avoid UO sucks/rocks and just concentrate on the concept here). Say this new upgrade is all great. Updates the interface to modern standards, updates the graphics, updates the engine, and makes the game feel all fresh and shiny like it was a 2006 new release.

Would people try it? It'd have all that depth -- expansions, changes, updates, a large and sustained user-base. What people are always clamoring for. Years worth of material.

I don't think they would. Not without that shiny "UO2" name. (Probably not even with). Because even if it's new, it's old. Who wants to show up and spend all that time catching up with everyone else? People who have played for years and years? People want "new" and "big" because they don't want to feel like they're treading ground others have already passed through, mastered, and spent years nitpicking at.

In one sense, you have to make the sequel. Because there comes a point when all the new shiny, the updates, the expansions, the overhauls -- even if they're brilliant and polished and awesome are, at best, just going to make ex-players take another look. It won't bring in many new ideas. Because it's an old game. It's always an old game.

[HaemishM]

Having such a mature (in the MMOG sense, not actual mature) user base is actually going to hurt UO in this regard. People already have their houses, their GMx7 (or whatever) characters, the economy is already inflated to hell and back. Why WOULD a new player play it? They'd constantly be behind the curve, the same as an EQ server where all the newbie areas are empty. At least with UO, the difference between a vet and a newbie isn't great, but from what WUA has said, I get the feeling the items have become the difference.

[WindupAtheist]

It's just my kook theory at this point, but I've said earlier in this thread that I think an item nerf is coming.  The latest scenario bosses drop "doom artifacts" which are just about the top-notch items in the game.  Except these artifacts have a property that causes them to always drop to your corpse no matter what.  I'd bet money that they're carefully monitoring what these droppable artifacts go for in proportion to the usual ones, and how willing people are to use them.

[Morat20]

It does make me wonder what a developer should do when faced with a fading game. If you want to make UO2, should you make it an updated UO? Or should you go in an entirely different direction, figuring the people who liked UO are staying with UO and you want different people for UO2?

Or should you do what CCP is doing, and say "Screw sequels" and just keep evolving the game? But that leads to really high learning curves if you don't keep adjusting the newbie experience...(And admittedly, CCP's skills system makes it easier for six-month newbs to compete with multi-year vets in PvP).

Or should you just roll the dice, and hope Game version 2.0 is so much better than it lures the people from one to another? Maybe shut down the original version to help it out?

[WindupAtheist]

Keep the old game running, spending as much money on facelifts and revamps as is justified by business it does.  Then make a different game on a different IP.  Don't revisit the premise of the old game until it's gone.  At least that would be my plan.

[Numtini]

Keep the old game running, spending as much money on facelifts and revamps as is justified by business it does.  Then make a different game on a different IP.  Don't revisit the premise of the old game until it's gone.  At least that would be my plan.

That certainly sounds like what Mythic is doing.

[Calantus]

Keep the old game running, spending as much money on facelifts and revamps as is justified by business it does.  Then make a different game on a different IP.  Don't revisit the premise of the old game until it's gone.  At least that would be my plan.

Agreed. Cannibalizing your playerbase and splitting them over 2 games, requiring twice the overhead, seems a stupid notion unless those games are different enough to expect to bring in sufficient numbers who wouldn't play the other.

[Yegolev]

Did you jizz yet?

Tell me this.  Will I be able to play this using merely my original release CDROM?  It's a horrible pain in the ass, but it worked, and I had lots of "neat" things due to the fact that I had a eight-year-old account, SO if there isn't anything else to pay for AND there's some sort of - I don't know - hint of direction for a n00b, I might be tempted to try this again.  Although I was somehwat disappointed that they deleted my original character.

OK, yes, EVE is down for maintenance right now.  I might be temporarily insane.

[Calantus]

I hate you.

I sold my original account and had to stare at other people's vet rewards with envy last time. It wouldn't even let me use certain dye tubs.

[Numtini]

Out of some kind of insane nostalgia, I logged into Chessie. The place is absolutely dead empty deserted. I hit the banks in Britain and Moonglow and... nobody... I think I saw three other PCs. When I was playing actively three to five years ago, I'd have seen more people than that even in Fel.

I know there is much hate here for the bank sitters, but not a single one at the Britain bank? that's a huge hint about population.

[Yegolev]

I hate you.

I sold my original account and had to stare at other people's vet rewards with envy last time. It wouldn't even let me use certain dye tubs.

Oh, yeah, I'm cooler than Elvis, lookit me, I got some kinda beetle in my electronic pants but I still don't know where the fuck I spawned and everybody else has horses and chocobos and shit!  This isn't Brittain, where's God-damned Lord Brittish, I gotta ask him where the fucking interface is!

[WindupAtheist]

Tell me this.  Will I be able to play this using merely my original release CDROM?  It's a horrible pain in the ass, but it worked, and I had lots of "neat" things due to the fact that I had a eight-year-old account

I don't think the really old installation discs work anymore, and I suspect they'll want you to buy a box to get the new client anyway.  Of course, neither your account nor it's recorded age have anything to do with what disc you install from.

Out of some kind of insane nostalgia, I logged into Chessie. The place is absolutely dead empty deserted. I hit the banks in Britain and Moonglow and... nobody... I think I saw three other PCs. When I was playing actively three to five years ago, I'd have seen more people than that even in Fel.

Yeah, the game is sporting a little over half the subs it was three years ago.  (Which, for as old as the game was even then, was it's all-time peak.)  But try Luna bank in Malas.  When Britain was invaded by uber-monsters about a year and a half ago, everyone moved to Luna.  On some shards, the banksitters stayed in Luna even after the invasion was over.

Speaking of city invasions, I'll go off on a tangent and praise the scenario they have going on now.  Ophidians are spawning in Skara Brae, Papua, Serpent's Hold, and Vesper.  The monsters drop various bits of shiny and weird plot-related items that are supposed to become relevant later.  As they're killed, individual spawn points shut down, allowing you to push the front back across the city.  At the same time, tougher and tougher critters spawn.

Eventually, if a large number of players descend upon a city and kill every single "boss" Ophidian, then that's it.  They're beaten, and won't come back.  On Europa there have been a number of shard-wide events based around clearing out particular cities, and at the moment only Vesper still has spawn in it.  Not counting Felucca, of course, where every city is still full of monsters.  Invaded cities don't have guards, you see.  Yes Martha, there are still PKs in UO.

Anyway, they've been doing city invasions forever, but this is the first one where players have actually been able to win, as opposed to just camping spawn until the devs decide it should be over.  I'm enjoying the shit out of it, frankly.

Oh, yeah, I'm cooler than Elvis, lookit me, I got some kinda beetle in my electronic pants but I still don't know where the fuck I spawned and everybody else has horses and chocobos and shit!  This isn't Brittain, where's God-damned Lord Brittish, I gotta ask him where the fucking interface is!

Sigged.

[Yegolev]

I don't think the really old installation discs work anymore,

I made it work last December with my first-press, vintage disc.  I had to edit some files, but it worked.  The movie made me chuckle.

and I suspect they'll want you to buy a box to get the new client anyway.

I suspect they can suck my EVE-playing dick.

[WindupAtheist]

Fuck them and the chocobo they rode in on?

[Reg]

I don't understand why people would expect to get this new client for free. It's not like UO releases an expansion 2 or 3 times a year like EQ.

[schild]

I don't know why people would pay for this old broken shit. But hey, pretty up the client and bleed those suckers dry I suppose.

[Numtini]

My bet will be to give away the client for free, but also do some kind of content based expansion in conjunction with it. A lot has to do with whether or not they are going to continue to support multiple clients, but from comments about keeping the requirements low, I'm guessing that they're not. If you were going to continue to support a 2d client, why would anyone care if your 3d client was higher spec.

And thanks, I'll go pop around Luna. It's been a while and the invasion sounds like a lot of fun. I've always enjoyed the regular events.

[Morat20]

Speaking of city invasions, I'll go off on a tangent and praise the scenario they have going on now.  Ophidians are spawning in Skara Brae, Papua, Serpent's Hold, and Vesper. 

Wait -- Bard's Tale Skara Brae (and not that new shit -- we're talking 15 year old "You're attacked by 99 fucking skeletons, bitch" Bard's Tale)?

[Trippy]

Speaking of city invasions, I'll go off on a tangent and praise the scenario they have going on now.  Ophidians are spawning in Skara Brae, Papua, Serpent's Hold, and Vesper. 

Wait -- Bard's Tale Skara Brae (and not that new shit -- we're talking 15 year old "You're attacked by 99 fucking skeletons, bitch" Bard's Tale)?

Same name (taken from a real place) different city.

[WindupAtheist]

I don't know why people would pay for this old broken shit. But hey, pretty up the client and bleed those suckers dry I suppose.

So this doesn't tempt the discerning eye of Eric "This NGE thing looks like a good idea!" Schild?  EA should just throw in the towel and break down crying right now then.  Either that or quote you on the side of the fucking box as some sort of MMO revamp anti-savant.

Wait -- Bard's Tale Skara Brae (and not that new shit -- we're talking 15 year old "You're attacked by 99 fucking skeletons, bitch" Bard's Tale)?

I know nothing about Bard's Tale, but Ultima has had a Skara Brae since Ultima IV in 1985.

[Morat20]

I don't know why people would pay for this old broken shit. But hey, pretty up the client and bleed those suckers dry I suppose.

So this doesn't tempt the discerning eye of Eric "This NGE thing looks like a good idea!" Schild?  EA should just throw in the towel and break down crying right now then.  Either that or quote you on the side of the fucking box as some sort of MMO revamp anti-savant.

Wait -- Bard's Tale Skara Brae (and not that new shit -- we're talking 15 year old "You're attacked by 99 fucking skeletons, bitch" Bard's Tale)?

I know nothing about Bard's Tale, but Ultima has had a Skara Brae since Ultima IV in 1985.

The Bard's Tale was produced by EA in 1985 as well. Reading up on it (bless you, Wikipedia) it appears you could import characters from Ultima III and Wizardry -- I didn't know they were done by the same group. (1985 was a LONG time ago!).

[Trippy]

The Bard's Tale was produced by EA in 1985 as well. Reading up on it (bless you, Wikipedia) it appears you could import characters from Ultima III and Wizardry -- I didn't know they were done by the same group. (1985 was a LONG time ago!).

They weren't. Bard's Tale was Interplay, Ultima III was Origin and Wizardry was Sir-tech.

[Driakos]

Out of some kind of insane nostalgia, I logged into Chessie. The place is absolutely dead empty deserted. I hit the banks in Britain and Moonglow and... nobody... I think I saw three other PCs. When I was playing actively three to five years ago, I'd have seen more people than that even in Fel.

I know there is much hate here for the bank sitters, but not a single one at the Britain bank? that's a huge hint about population.

It's definitely not deserted.  Chesapeake was the first shard last week to down the sub-boss Yrigor, and *end* chapter one of the ongoing events.  The clues from that dungeon lead to the URL, which then released the above screenshots.  Not sure if a Chesapeake player was the first to figure out the puzzle (or just make a lucky guess), but they were the first to defeat the event itself.

[Simond]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae

And now you know, and so forth.

[Morat20]

The Bard's Tale was produced by EA in 1985 as well. Reading up on it (bless you, Wikipedia) it appears you could import characters from Ultima III and Wizardry -- I didn't know they were done by the same group. (1985 was a LONG time ago!).

They weren't. Bard's Tale was Interplay, Ultima III was Origin and Wizardry was Sir-tech.

But they allowed you to import characters into The Bard's Tale? Companies sure played nicer back in the day......

I still have found memories of that game. And the Wizardry one where you woke up, and you were the bad guy. That one was fun.

[Yegolev]

I don't understand why people would expect to get this new client for free.

Because they won't get my money otherwise?  And they are a bunch of chocobo fuckers?

But they allowed you to import characters into The Bard's Tale? Companies sure played nicer back in the day......

Back in "the day", a "game company" was some nerd in his parents' basement.  There was a lot more solidarity.

Incidentally, I've been to Skara Brae.  It's pretty damn cool.  In fact, the Orkneys themselves are really fucking cool.  I could see myself retiring to Kirkwall.

[WindupAtheist]

Official announcement.  Assorted details.  Blurbage from Marc Jacobs.  Implication that Mythic is already at work on the expansion, even though I was under the impression that the acquisition wouldn't be finalized for a little while yet.  Stuff bolded by me.  No, those aren't links.

REDWOOD CITY, Calif., Aug. 24, 2006 – The legendary kingdom of Britannia—and the online world that helped forge PC gaming’s fastest growing genre—is about to be reborn. Electronic Arts (NASDAQ: ERTS) today announced Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn (working title), an exciting new upgrade to the genre-defining Ultima Online™. Much more than an expansion, Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn is a complete make-over of the online world with a new graphics engine, a state-of-the-art user interface and enough new content for even the most seasoned players. Additionally, nine years of content and features will be preserved and enhanced with all-new graphics, making Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn one of the largest and deepest massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) in existence.

“It’s been nine years since Ultima Online first proved that online games could be very popular,” said EA Mythic General Manager, Mark Jacobs. “And now, thanks to the hard work and dedication of the UO team and the support of the players over the years, a new day is dawning for this groundbreaking game.”

The new graphics engine will maintain the game’s original perspective while giving it a bold new look that takes advantage of 3D-accelerated special effects. The team is busy re-drawing more than 9,000 pieces of art with which the entire map of Ultima Online -- more than 14 million tiles -- will be re-built, giving the whole game a vibrant new look.

Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn is also a full-featured expansion pack with a wide array of new content and features that will be announced later this year. The new expansion will include a playable race, and add to or enhance many of the key features of Ultima Online: epic battles versus powerful monsters, deep dangerous dungeons, player-versus-player combat, creative housing design, crafting, and much more.

EA Mythic, formerly Mythic Entertainment, and the Ultima Online team are working together to bring about one of the most ambitious upgrades of any operating MMORPG. Created in such a way that current players who choose not to upgrade will be able to play without interruption, Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn will ship in 2007 for PC.

[Venkman]

But they allowed you to import characters into The Bard's Tale?

Ho.Li.Crap. How the shit did I not know about this back then?! I loved both games and never saw that connection.

Johnny come lately indeed.

[Trippy]

But they allowed you to import characters into The Bard's Tale?

Ho.Li.Crap. How the shit did I not know about this back then?! I loved both games and never saw that connection.
Johnny come lately indeed.

It apparently wasn't available on all platforms. I don't remember it being an option on the Apple ][ version (which did have the other two games available on it) but I may have just forgotten.

[Venkman]

Oh that explains it. I was Apple //e until my first Mac.

[Morat20]

Oh that explains it. I was Apple //e until my first Mac.

Same here. My first games were The Bard's Tale, Space Quest, Zork, and Hitchiker's Guide. I think Starflight as well. I didn't get my first PC for several years after that.

Still, I learned BASIC at the age of like 8 or so. It was something to do with the computer after I'd beaten a game, and was waiting for my mom to shell out for another. :)