Patch 3.1 -Preview-

[Xanthippe]

That is the basic limitation in how badly you can punish the ranged with movement. Having to constantly shift position as a caster just tanks DPS into nothing land, where most melee can still go full bore even on the move.


It's also one of the reasons PvP is currently extra retarded.

Bingo.  Why didn't I think of this before?  The clouds have lifted.  Will it be fixed, is my question.

[Hindenburg]

Yeah, but survival hunters with gear comparable to my rogue? If played by anybody but a gibbering moron? In PvE, their dps output right now is just sick. Way way way above mine in some cases, and I think I'm reasonably good at maximizing my dps output.

Are you certain that you wanna restart that discussion? 

[Xanthippe]

I recall someone - Kalgan, or GC - saying hunters were supposed to be great in pve because they suck so bad at pvp.  Or something.

[Khaldun]

Yeah, but survival hunters with gear comparable to my rogue? If played by anybody but a gibbering moron? In PvE, their dps output right now is just sick. Way way way above mine in some cases, and I think I'm reasonably good at maximizing my dps output.

Are you certain that you wanna restart that discussion? 

Yeah, sorry. Pretend I never said it.

[Vash]

Not sure why everyone is of the opinion that hunters are somehow crap for PvP in Wrath, Survival is borderline OP and MM can hold it's own.  With 3.0.8 causing half of all hunters to go Survival and DK's getting toned down it's becoming even more evident just as a casual observer.

I'm not sure percentage wise how well they're represented on 2k+ teams or whatever but I do know that the top overall rated arena player atm is a survival hunter who with a resto shaman as a 2v2 partner has a rating over 2.6k in that bracket with 2k+ ratings in 3v3 and 5v5 as well.

Explosive shot is serious business, aimed shot has given hunters a pvp niche since TBC when they gave it the mortal strike debuff and now it's instant cast in Wrath, and the new disengage post 3.0.8 is an amazing survival tool especially with it having such a short cd (too short imo).  Then you add additional tools like Wyvern sting, scatter shot, entrapment, and Lock'n Load to the mix and the general consensus by most of the WoW populous is still Hunter+PvP = fail. 

Was bored and did some pvp on my mage this weekend and fighting a survival hunter is just as annoying and painful as fighting a DK.  If they got the jump on me and weren't in green gear Explosive Shot -> Aimed Shot ->Steady Shot/afk auto shot -> Explosive Shot/Kill Shot + the few auto shots and pet attacks that fit in that 6 second window is typically more than enough to kill.  Whenever I tried to blink into mele range (since hunters no longer have a dead zone, the only issue I ever had with hunters in pvp since having one as an alt pre-BC) more often than not a scatter shot was there waiting for me.  Then you add the instant on demand cc of Wyvern sting in addition to their traps and things get really annoying.  If I got the jump and for whatever reason Wyvern sting wasn't available the new disengage would help them turn the tables or escape if other players were nearby.

If my hunter wasn't a big ugly cow on a backwoods server I'd probably go jump on him right now and pew pew with all this good stuff before it gets nerfed, shocked there weren't any in 3.0.9 actually to go with the buffs to BM.  Guess I'll just stick to leveling my DK though since there's almost no scenario where I'd consider leveling 1-80 *again* a good/fun idea   

[Merusk]

I recall someone - Kalgan, or GC - saying hunters were supposed to be great in pve because they suck so bad at pvp.  Or something.

That's a crappy excuse they're throwing out there as cover for "We don't fucking know how to, nor do we care about, fixing hunters so they're not gimpy or overpowered."

Vash: It's about representation as a whole, never about specific individuals.  There were hunters in BC who were amazing and able to climb into the top tiers and the season finals.  Did that mean that hunters were OK and needed no buffs?   I'm sure we can find holy paladins and holy priests that rape face too, does that mean it's a damage spec and needs to be toned down or that there are exceptional players out there?

[Fordel]

That is the basic limitation in how badly you can punish the ranged with movement. Having to constantly shift position as a caster just tanks DPS into nothing land, where most melee can still go full bore even on the move.


It's also one of the reasons PvP is currently extra retarded.

Bingo.  Why didn't I think of this before?  The clouds have lifted.  Will it be fixed, is my question.

Probably not 

[Paelos]

The only fight in Naxx that punishes melee is Kel'Thuzad

wut

25 man ramps up his stupid ability that chain ice blocks people so it can actually hit the MT. You have to get the melee away from him, and you have to not stack more than a couple together, lest the healers not catch up in time. Also, most of the initial wave mobs rely heavily on ranged nuking them away from the group, and you need the ranged people to perform CC's on the people that get MCed.

Maybe punishing melee is too strong of a term, but it's certainly one of the few fights where I thought having primarily ranged DPS with a couple melee for interrupts would be a huge advantage due to the abilities involved.

[Ingmar]

I think of KT more as punishing healers than punishing melee, since there's really nothing that the melee can do to mitigate the situation other than 'stand on star' or whatever. But yeah, you're right in that bringing too many melee to that fight is a big disadvantage.

[Vash]

Vash: It's about representation as a whole, never about specific individuals.  There were hunters in BC who were amazing and able to climb into the top tiers and the season finals.  Did that mean that hunters were OK and needed no buffs?  I'm sure we can find holy paladins and holy priests that rape face too, does that mean it's a damage spec and needs to be toned down or that there are exceptional players out there?

There are exceptional players playing every class considering the sample size of the WoW population, that is pretty much a given.  My point was that the class is not fundamentally broken if you can put it in the hands of a great player and they can become one of the highest rated players in the game.  Broken would be if in the hands of great player who plays with great team members breaking 2k is nigh impossible.

 It may just be that hunter PvP requires a far more different playstyle than other classes have to adjust to when going from PvE to PvP or that hunter PvP requires more player skill to exceed than other classes.  Both arguments are debateable and I don't really agree with either but they are entirely different arguments than: class is broken in PvP please fix it. 

Until every max level player is given the option to be any class, given the exact same gear as every other player, and forced to play 10 arena games a week, how any given class is *represented* at X+ arena rating isn't really a meaningful class balance stat simply because your looking at a subset (Arena pvp) of a subset (general PvP) of the population.  Given how unpopular PvP is currently, especially arenas, due the general imbalances and stereotypes (i.e. if your not a DK, ret pally, holy pally, mut rogue, or arcane mage don't bother) I'm of the opinion it's an even worse stat than usual.

With most hunters going Survival since 3.0.8 for PvE more and more will be trying it out for PvP and as more hunters realize how strong it is in PvP I'm willing to bet there will be a corresponding rise in hunter arena representation over the next few weeks/months.  This is assuming of course that 3.1 is still a ways off because hunters are getting a major revamp and who knows what will happen to them in PvP post 3.1 

I mean it's not like the hunters I've seen lately smashing face (mostly mine ) in Wintergrasp and BG's are ultra hardcore arena vets with full deadly gear, just your average smattering of hunters and they bring the pain almost as hard as that full Valorous DK with Betrayer of Humanity that enjoyed making a b-line for me and 2-3 shoting me everytime. 

[Lantyssa]

In my opinion, of course. DKs don't have seals that hurt themselves, so that probably helps. You'd think being the emo class they'd be all over cutting themselves to see if they can still feel. 

I'm the psycho emo.  I cut others to see if I'll start caring.

[Vash]

I think of KT more as punishing healers than punishing melee, since there's really nothing that the melee can do to mitigate the situation other than 'stand on star' or whatever. But yeah, you're right in that bringing too many melee to that fight is a big disadvantage.

Having lots of mele on Malygos is no picnic either.  You'd think Blizzard would have a little foresight and in an expansion that adds yet another mele dps class (bringing the ratio of mele dps:ranged dps up to 1:1) would eliminate boss fights of the Maiden of Virtue/Prince variety that actively punish raids for bringing more than a select handful of mele.  It's almost a slap in the face that the 2 pinnacle bosses of this raid tier (not counting Sarth3D) are right out of the old mele unfriendly playbook, yet have a lot of the best mele weapons/gear.  What's even worse is that this is even more punishing in 10 man content where you don't have lots of extra healing going around to keep large amounts of mele alive.

I don't even mind fights that make mele constantly move or have us take splash dmg or dodge whatever, but fights/mechanics that actively encourage raids to bring as few mele as possible as some sort of pseudo difficulty really need to go the way of 40 man raids and die, especially as you get deeper into difficult content.

[Delmania]

In my opinion, of course. DKs don't have seals that hurt themselves, so that probably helps. You'd think being the emo class they'd be all over cutting themselves to see if they can still feel. 

I'm the psycho emo.  I cut others to see if I'll start caring.

Bah, I've heard people call warlocks* the emo class.  I have to wonder why a person that sacrifices his or her very humanity for power is considered emo...

That's actually valid since warlocks do cut themselves.  And with talents, they can cut themselves better and start cutting their pets.

[kildorn]

In my opinion, of course. DKs don't have seals that hurt themselves, so that probably helps. You'd think being the emo class they'd be all over cutting themselves to see if they can still feel. 

I'm the psycho emo.  I cut others to see if I'll start caring.

Bah, I've heard people call warlocks the emo class.  I have to wonder why a person that sacrifices his or her very humanity for power is considered emo...

They tap the great dark powers of the beyond to summon a scantly clad girl who would stab them if they could?

[Xanthippe]

If pvp is not currently broken, it is certainly a hell of a lot different than it's ever been before.

Hunters are broken.  There is one spec that's OP and I'm sure that will be nerfed right quick.  Another spec is useless for everything because the devs think it's too easy to play, therefore it doesn't deserve to do as much damage.  Or something.  

Now, if your definition of broken really is all about who is tops on the arena meters, I don't know what to say.  Plenty of people play WoW without ever going to arena.  Ever.  Some of us consider arena to be a complete bastardization of the game - to the point where it should have it's own server - why don't they separate the population for the rest of us so we can dink around in our world and fish and level and quest, and they can go play their World of Arenas fps game.

Battlegrounds are broken.  The hunter class is broken.  Blizzard has no idea what it's doing with hunters, it's fairly clear.  Let's nerf 'em some more and ignore DKs and make ret Pallies stronger and priests weaker and ... honestly, I don't understand what the vision is here.

[Delmania]

In my opinion, of course. DKs don't have seals that hurt themselves, so that probably helps. You'd think being the emo class they'd be all over cutting themselves to see if they can still feel. 

I'm the psycho emo.  I cut others to see if I'll start caring.

Bah, I've heard people call warlocks the emo class.  I have to wonder why a person that sacrifices his or her very humanity for power is considered emo...

They tap the great dark powers of the beyond to summon a scantly clad girl who would stab them if they could?

Succubi would tie them up, whip them, then fsck the hell out of them to steal their soul.  I can think of a number of people who love to be sexed to death by a hawt demon girl.

[Nevermore]

In my opinion, of course. DKs don't have seals that hurt themselves, so that probably helps. You'd think being the emo class they'd be all over cutting themselves to see if they can still feel. 

I'm the psycho emo.  I cut others to see if I'll start caring.

In Soviet Russia, emos cut you! 

[Sheepherder]

The other melee classes generally have the armor and mitigation to survive something like retaliate or whirlwind and so they can just plow through it. Rogues have to back off and wait when they think something like that is coming.

Rogues are not particularly hard done by.  From looking around I've found on average that rogues seem to hover around 25% or more damage reduction via armor in epics (the rogue I looked at had one blue and was at ~27%).  Warriors seem to trend towards 50% (my warrior has ~48% with a few blues).  Both can expect around 20k health in DPS gear.

20 000 x 1.50 x 0.90 (Stance Penalty) = 27 000 Effective Health
20 000 x 1.25 = 25 000 Effective Health

Our savior is an extra 2k effective health, which will not give a warrior a single extra cleave/WW taken before they keel over and will only save them when a rogue takes similar damage but dies to >2k overkill.  However, against any magic damage a warrior will always take 10% more damage than you (2k health), so effectively there are three boss fights in Wrath where a warrior is not disadvantaged compared to a rogue.  Fury warriors are more squishy than rogues. 

[Nevermore]

Dual Spec Q&A

Nethaera: How do you switch between specs?
Ghostcrawler: Players will be able to switch between their talent specs by visiting any Lexicon of Power provided they’ve paid for the ability to have a secondary spec. Lexicons of Power will be available in major cities, and inscribers will also be able to create a new item that summons one. Anyone can purchase this item, but it requires a ritual of several players to summon it for use by the party. It’s similar to a repair bot in that it will exist in the world for a short duration. It’s important to keep in mind that you will not be able to switch specs while in combat or Arenas. While you won’t be able to switch your spec without the Lexicon, you will still be able to look at your secondary spec whenever you want to.

Huh.

Also, the gear switching thing could prove to be nice.  Especially for Druids.

[Fordel]

Mobile Lexicon's 

[Ingmar]

Craaaaaaaap, that means we need one of our regular raiders to switch to Inscription!

EDIT: Never mind, reading failure. We're all good. 

A couple things that annoy/worry me:

Worry: 'one time fee' could be high
Annoy: Can't do it at lower than max level - I wanted to be able to level my druid as moonkin but be able to swap to tree for instances on the way up.

[Rasix]

Why don't they just have meeting stones serve as "field" lexicons?

[kildorn]

Why don't they just have meeting stones serve as "field" lexicons?

Because we really don't need more people hanging out at the naxx meeting stone <3

[Sjofn]

Hey, letting you have dual specs at level 60 or so would overwhelm people worse than a third heal spell would overwhelm a paladin.

[Nevermore]

I wonder what the cooldown will be on that field lexicon thing will be, if any.

[Dewdrop]

Why don't they just have meeting stones serve as "field" lexicons?

Because we really don't need more people hanging out at the naxx meeting stone <3

Yea, that would almost be an achievement: How many different thing were you doing while getting blastwaved out of the Naxx meeting stone area.. Eating, Drinking, Staring blankly into space, entering the zone, using the dual spec system... Good times.

[Fordel]

Why don't they just have meeting stones serve as "field" lexicons?

Because we really don't need more people hanging out at the naxx meeting stone <3

Yea, that would almost be an achievement: How many different thing were you doing while getting blastwaved out of the Naxx meeting stone area.. Eating, Drinking, Staring blankly into space, entering the zone, using the dual spec system... Good times.

Oh Man, I never even thought of that. Sjofn, can we transfer to a PvP server?

[Lantyssa]

No.

[Merusk]

Fuck yeah, awesome.

In other news; I might have to find yet ANOTHER guild as my Guild Leader has taken to raiding with his Wife's guild because we can't get 25 mans together on a regular basis.  It doesn't help that he doesn't like recruiting and just wants his lootz now.    So, I may foresee a server x-fer for the wife and I in the future.

[Soulflame]

That's awesome.  Our "A-Team" raid group is undergoing an extended implosion this week as well.  I'm excited to see how it shakes out!*  The raid leader decided to stop leading, some people don't want to play with others anymore, and the OT was booted from the guild.

I'm interested to see more about the item management, if they add some way to allow players to remove offset gear from bag space, that would be the part that I will probably be happiest about.  Wasting entire bags on offspec gear is not fun.

Also, two specs isn't really enough for some classes.  Meh.

* I hate guild drama.

[Sjofn]

Fuck yeah, awesome.

In other news; I might have to find yet ANOTHER guild as my Guild Leader has taken to raiding with his Wife's guild because we can't get 25 mans together on a regular basis.  It doesn't help that he doesn't like recruiting and just wants his lootz now.    So, I may foresee a server x-fer for the wife and I in the future.

Sometimes a guild has just gotta embrace the ten man.

In my case, it probably helps that I don't really like 25 because it feels SO CROWDED. Maybe it would be better for me if I was a ranged somethingsomething instead of a DK.