Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[Mrbloodworth]

A multi-crew ship should involve everyone sitting in their personal gunner's seat firing a big gun at people. "I got him!" "Great kid - don't get cocky!". Maybe one person is in the pilot's seat doing the steering and throttle and shields etc, on top of firing their gun.

Some of us remember the multi-crew experience from SWG doing exactly that in the YT-1300. Pilot, two gunners, other people running repairs around the ship.  It was cool in theory but all kinds of crap in practice. Mainly because the pilot would fly in such a way that the turret gunners couldn't ever get a decent shot off as they couldn't predict which way the pilot would be flying. (Also, motion sickness.) Basically, with a dorsal and ventral gunning position, the only way to be effective was for the pilot to fly in straight lines and avoid rolling. And of course, flying in a straight line meant you were an easier target...

You just described the real life considerations for any turret equipped aircraft.  Some will enjoy it, some will want single set fighters, and that's OK too.

One thing to keep in mind about the "planetside module" is this: it's not a "game inside a game" or just a PvP arena map like SM or AC, but a "real" location that will find its way in the final game (yeah, well...:P), so we'll actually get a chance to see the various features connected to it fleshed out (chat system, AR MobiGlass, buying/selling, conversation with NPCs, emotes, interacting with other players on the ground, interacting with objects and so on) as they put out patches.

Yes. And I think this is an area they seem to fail at communicating, or at least, even "news" origination's seem to not understand. Many articles, and comments treat say, the FPS component as if its supposed to be a session based shooter. Initially, the module will be, for testing and balance, but that's not in any way was its for, it part of the core pillars of the game play.  If you came in cold, you could easily think that is a distinct separate part of the game, and I think they need to do better to clarify this. That, and the launch, the launch they are talking about is the PU launch, and that's still an alpha phase, not gold.

[HaemishM]

Some of us remember the multi-crew experience from SWG doing exactly that in the YT-1300. Pilot, two gunners, other people running repairs around the ship.  It was cool in theory but all kinds of crap in practice. Mainly because the pilot would fly in such a way that the turret gunners couldn't ever get a decent shot off as they couldn't predict which way the pilot would be flying. (Also, motion sickness.) Basically, with a dorsal and ventral gunning position, the only way to be effective was for the pilot to fly in straight lines and avoid rolling. And of course, flying in a straight line meant you were an easier target...

This exactly describes the problem of multi-crew vehicles in video games. They sound great in practice, but if you aren't driving, you're likely cursing the fucking driver for not giving you a good firing platform. This happens to me in Battlefield 4 all the time.

[Malakili]

I've had mostly good experiences multi-crewing in Planetside 2, but I am usually playing with friends and with VOIP.

[Nija]

Clearly the best multi crewing was in Tribes 2 with whatever that thing was with 4 mortar heavies on board.

[Kail]

I remember Allegiance handled it by giving all the non-pilot characters their own turret which had a full sphere of action around the ship which didn't spin or roll when the pilot did.  Hand waved away the lore problems by saying that the players were actually seeing a reconstruction from an array of small turrets and cameras placed on the ship's hull.  Probably wouldn't fit too well in with Star Citizen though, given their fixation on realism.

[DraconianOne]

I remember Allegiance handled it by giving all the non-pilot characters their own turret which had a full sphere of action around the ship which didn't spin or roll when the pilot did.  Hand waved away the lore problems by saying that the players were actually seeing a reconstruction from an array of small turrets and cameras placed on the ship's hull.  Probably wouldn't fit too well in with Star Citizen though, given their fixation on realism.

Realism would be computer operated turrets that auto tracked targets and made adjustments for the pilots flying. This is a "hey, turrets and multiplayer crews could be cool and everyone loves that scene in Star Wars" type of realism. Manned turrets on planes went out at about the time of the Korean War because they'd been rendered ineffective by jet fighters.

But hey, yeah, it's a cool idea and perhaps they'll manage to make it fun and effective.

[jakonovski]

Realism would be drones and missiles duking it out orders of magnitude beyond visual range, ship crews ensconced in fluid filled pods while the ship makes high g maneuvers on the edge of lethality.

[DraconianOne]

Also true.

[jakonovski]

I really do dig the WW2 romantic approach in a space sim too. But then you have to make up a reason why your turreted ship has to fly mostly in a straight line.

[Falconeer]

Multicrew can be a lot of fun, if it's optional. It was the best feature of JTL in the Star Wars Galaxies era, and it works great in Planetside. I am would be looking forward to that.

Sadly, before even having a conversation about this, we should have -you know- the game become a real thing.

[Teleku]

If the game play of the guy at the shield console is similar to raid healer gameplay, it shouldn't be an issue.  Plenty of people did it, including myself for several years.

I mean, I never saw wtf actually was happening in a raid.  Not the fight, explosions, story, or flow of combat.  All I saw was basically something like this:



And for some dumb reason still kept coming back for more.  So if they can at least keep it as engaging as being a healer in an MMO, it should be ok.  Big IF's though.

[Mrbloodworth]

Someone hit the nail earlier. While Star citizen is set in the future, under the skin, like all Chris Roberts games, this is WWII era influence.

Multicrew can be a lot of fun, if it's optional.

Its optional, in that if you dislike multi-crew, bring a fighter. Also, supposedly, Hireable NPC's with varying competencies.

[Teleku]

Someone hit the nail earlier. While Star citizen is set in the future, under the skin, like all Chris Roberts games, this is WWII era influence.

Multicrew can be a lot of fun, if it's optional.

Its optional, in that if you dislike multi-crew, bring a fighter. Also, supposedly, Hireable NPC's with varying competencies.

It's not Chris Roberts, its the foundation of Sci-fi going back to the 40's and 50's (ww2 era).  Lots of books back then portraying space battles in terms of naval tactics at the time.  Star Wars was the biggest success with the most pop culture influence to make it to the big screens after that era.  Star Wars is nothing but WW2 in space.  Guys in huge battle ships shooting god damn laser flack at incoming enemy fighters they are tracking with their naked eyes.  Single man fighter jets doing bombing runs on enemy ships as the laser flack magically explodes around them and causes turbulence.  Its had a pretty profound impact on all media (movies, tv, and games) since it was a hit, these games included.

[HaemishM]

Jesus Christ, Teleku... that raid screenshot. 

How is Star Citizen going to give loot to entice people to waste time doing shit like that?

[palmer_eldritch]

Make it purple

[Mrbloodworth]

It's not Chris Roberts, its the foundation of Sci-fi going back to the 40's and 50's (ww2 era).  Lots of books back then portraying space battles in terms of naval tactics at the time.  Star Wars was the biggest success with the most pop culture influence to make it to the big screens after that era.  Star Wars is nothing but WW2 in space.  Guys in huge battle ships shooting god damn laser flack at incoming enemy fighters they are tracking with their naked eyes.  Single man fighter jets doing bombing runs on enemy ships as the laser flack magically explodes around them and causes turbulence.  Its had a pretty profound impact on all media (movies, tv, and games) since it was a hit, these games included.

I didn't say he invented it, I said all his games have the influence. Hence we have turret equipped spacecraft and max speed limits and torpedoes.

[Mrbloodworth]

How is Star Citizen going to give loot to entice people to waste time doing shit like that?

For you: Linky 

[Samwise]

Anyone building a turret fighting game needs to look very hard at Guns of Icarus.

[Lucas]

Just for reference, here's one of the original design docs about the multicrew stations (dated December 2014):

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman-Multi-Crew-Ship-Systems

Ignore the initial Letter from the Chairman and scroll down 'til "Multi-crew ship systems".
---

I think it will definitely get trimmed down, anyway. They will get feedback once they put in Arena Commander 2.0, currently planned "shortly after CitizenCon" (October 10th), although in a much more limited environment.

Yeah, regarding limiting you and your friend to pew pew away, why not, at least for routine PvE missions: one player piloting and shooting, his two friends manning the turrents, one poor NPC doing the dirty "screen" work. Happy blasting :D

By the way, at CitizenCon, Roberts should unveil the full cast for S42 (maybe the opening cinematic too?): latest rumors include Andy Serkis, beside fan-favorite Mark Hamill.

LOL at that Raid screen, and yeah, I used Grid too 

E:D is showing that the race for the next big ship and amassing obscene quantities of money just doesn't work in a multiplayer environment nowadays, it's not enough. But, like E:D, Star Citizen won't feature a leveling system for characters, nor a skill system, going down the "profession/career" route just like its more direct competitor. So, yeah, there are many doubts about that approach, especially if the "it's up to the players to create their own stories/content" mindset is not supported by the gameplay (EVE).

[Merusk]

Jesus Christ, Teleku... that raid screenshot. 

His fault for playing a Paladin on a laptop. Dat screenres.

Also, wtf did he not turn off group frame when in a raid?

[Lucas]

Can't remember if I posted something about it when it originally came out, but anyway: George Oldziey, the main composer of the Wing Commander saga, completed his KS project and released the orchestral recording of music from WC 3 and 4:

link to .zip file

EDIT: Whoops, password to extract the files is...
Here's a 24 minute "making of" video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4OsjTqU4w8

...And, posted by Oldziey himself, the original WC4 intro sequence with the new, orchestral recording :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMmuqtpptng

A must see (and listen) for any Wing Commander fan out there :)

[Ginaz]

Jesus Christ, Teleku... that raid screenshot.  

His fault for playing a Paladin on a laptop. Dat screenres.

Also, wtf did he not turn off group frame when in a raid?

Err...NM.

[HaemishM]

How is Star Citizen going to give loot to entice people to waste time doing shit like that?

For you: Linky 

Right, so you are basically saying Star Citizen players will be fucking idiots. Gotcha.

[Teleku]

Jesus Christ, Teleku... that raid screenshot.  

His fault for playing a Paladin on a laptop. Dat screenres.

Also, wtf did he not turn off group frame when in a raid?

That's not my screenshot, I just nabbed it from the Internet.  Partly for comedy, but the way my own screen as a healer during a raid looked wasn't that much different.

[Der Helm]

How is Star Citizen going to give loot to entice people to waste time doing shit like that?

For you: Linky 

Right, so you are basically saying Star Citizen players will be fucking idiots. Gotcha.

I tried to get to that but when it came to "fixing" entertainment system and mixing drinks I could not make myself read further...

[Merusk]

Jesus Christ, Teleku... that raid screenshot.  

His fault for playing a Paladin on a laptop. Dat screenres.

Also, wtf did he not turn off group frame when in a raid?

That's not my screenshot, I just nabbed it from the Internet.  Partly for comedy, but the way my own screen as a healer during a raid looked wasn't that much different.

Yeah I didn't think it was, the "his" is the player in question. He's got Pally Power running and the icons are so clumped as to indicate a laptop or really shitty graphics processor so he downscaled his screen res.

Yes, it's a disease.

[Malakili]

That screenshot reminded me of needing reagents for raid buffs.  Do they still do that in WoW? 

[Samprimary]

Space sims pretty much have to be early era themed in terms of battle mechanics. Air combat simulator 2015 would be a pilot confirming a signature many miles outside of visual range twice with a command person, then launching a missile at it, then confirming the dot disappeared, then going home on a planned trajectory, then hours of debriefing.

Space combat would likely just be AIs shooting at other AIs at incredible distances where human input would be next to useless

[Merusk]

That screenshot reminded me of needing reagents for raid buffs.  Do they still do that in WoW? 

Thankfully, no.

However, buffs are so trivial to cast anymore due to mana usage & duration that they should just be Auras like Marvel heroes. Grab someone with the right one and it auto-applies to the group instead of "remember to press this button because Joe-Jackass was out of range when you pressed it 15 seconds ago."

Yet another indicator of how far Blizzard has fallen because they haven't snagged that mechanic.

Space sims pretty much have to be early era themed in terms of battle mechanics. Air combat simulator 2015 would be a pilot confirming a signature many miles outside of visual range twice with a command person, then launching a missile at it, then confirming the dot disappeared, then going home on a planned trajectory, then hours of debriefing.

Space combat would likely just be AIs shooting at other AIs at incredible distances where human input would be next to useless

Yes, because reality is far fewer humans involved in ANYTHING in the near future, much less the far future.

However, since there's hordes of people willing to sign-up and be passengers, apparently, why not push that gameplay anyway. "I'm programming my drone for this set of scenarios" is more engaging than "I got to sit around for 4 hours during prep but then my landing/ boarding ship was exploded and I was out of the fight."

[Sky]

Such an odd collection of cool looking stuff and awkward doctor's waiting room. The slow walking was painful.

But the controller movement on foot makes for such terrible video. Hopefully they make it so you can hybrid, use a gamepad for flying and keyb/m for foot controls.

No pony in the race, but it does look like it could be cool but probably won't because the voices they are listening to are fetishists.

[IainC]

I tried to get to that but when it came to "fixing" entertainment system and mixing drinks I could not make myself read further...

Holy shit, you weren't joking.

[Merusk]

"It's a simulation, not a game!"

People wonder why I aggressively hate the idea of MMO-as-sim. this is why. This is what people were aching for all these years.

[rk47]

inb4 paying bartender to drug entire roster's drinks prior to ambush at star sector Gemini.
We can take this all the way Chris. ALLLL THE WAYYY.

[tmp]

Right, so you are basically saying Star Citizen players will be fucking idiots. Gotcha.

Thought that was established the moment they made selling virtual spaceships for 50+ bucks a pop a viable strategy

[Lucas]

inb4 paying bartender to drug entire roster's drinks prior to ambush at star sector Gemini.
We can take this all the way Chris. ALLLL THE WAYYY.

See? That's the right mentality!! 

I really don't understand you guys: first you complain about "downtime", then consider a mixin' drink minigame that will get you drunk as a waste of time.

People these days