Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[Maven]

Oh my god. This is a scam.  Someone needs to investigate and press charges for this.

[Lucas]

If I remember right they showed a 'gameplay' video a while back which featured multi-crew ship, and it had people move around inside of the ship to the control stations and such while enemies were flying outside, shooting etc. No clue if anything of that is actually implemented though, or when it might be.

In other news, apparently they've figured out a business even better than selling virtual spaceships is selling virtual virtual spaceships

Yeah, regarding ship interiors, they're being done for immersion, roleplaying etc. but also gameplay reasons: multi-crew ships (not the single seaters) can be boarded, so the FPS mechanics they're integrating will kick in, in that case (the FPS mechanics will be unveiled on November 1st at PAX Australia). And yeah, some secondary "command" stations might be located in other rooms.

Remember that the Retaliator is big, yeah, but it's "just" an heavy bomber: corvettes, frigates, carriers, big salvage ships are a whole different matter.

[jakonovski]

Oh my god. This is a scam.   Someone needs to investigate and press charges for this.

They're going backwards with the sales, soon there'll be a special pre-concept sale where you pledge to buy anything that may or may not be conceived by the developers.

[Rendakor]

How is that one worse than the previous ones?

[jakonovski]

You're right, they've done it before. Now they just want more money. You peel back the layers and there's no end to the crazy.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14159-Future-Concept-Sale-Plans

[Hoax]

I certainly have never felt more disgust for a game's community before the game was even a game than I do with this pile of shit. Its hard not to wish for this thing to fail massively and horribly at this point. Which is twisted because I love scifi and space and space dogfighting.

Also the gameplay in the dogfight thing looks pretty weak. Can't say anything about what it feels like to pilot without playing it myself but the weapon's fire especially comes across as looking really lame in a lot of the stream/youtube stuff I've caught glimpses of.

[Venkman]

Is this thread not yet Den'd only because the game isn't already out and therefore hasn't gone through the hype > disillusionment > disgust cycle yet? 

[Samprimary]

this game has its own cycle

[Sir T]

350 dollars for a ship they haven't even finished designing yet. With a promise that the price of the ship will rise in the future. Sweet mother of God.

And I had a look at the dogfighting video. I lost it when the guy said when he was staring at his ship in front view "You can see me moving my stick in the cockpit. Pretty cool, huh?" He also commented that as he was "cheap" and was just a backer he only got a ship that was utter crap. Good to know they are going pay to win years before release :D

There's nothing there that wasn't in Starlancer. Except that the effects are worse.

[koro]

Someone, somewhere is going to kill themselves over this game when/if it falls flat.

[Lantyssa]

Y'know, if people want to throw money at the devs for plans of plans of fake spaceships... I don't begrudge them taking advantage.  It's gone from "this is insane" to "why didn't I think of this?" territory.

[rk47]

Y'know, if people want to throw money at the devs for plans of plans of fake spaceships... I don't begrudge them taking advantage.  It's gone from "this is insane" to "why didn't I think of this?" territory.

It's even cheaper to manufacture and deliver than a coffee mug or T-Shirts.
Stupid Obsidian and InXile doesn't know shit about marketing.
What fools, promising all the doodads inside the boxed copy.
Roberts made 10x per box sale compared to them and he hasn't even released the game. HAH!

[jakonovski]

Yeah, there's room for one big scam before it all comes falling down.

[ajax34i]

Room for more than one.  Proof in some of the scams in EVE Online.

Do we know for a fact that nobody has tried this type of "prepay for vaporware" scam before?  Maybe with success on a smaller scale?

[Margalis]

I can't think of anything close to this scale. To some degree a lot of season passes are prepay for vaporware, but those top out at like $30.

[Rendakor]

Has there been a high profile season pass that didn't deliver?

[Cadaverine]

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Defiance, but I don't know that it counts as high profile.

[Margalis]

Has there been a high profile season pass that didn't deliver?

Define "didn't deliver."

The Uncharted 3 season pass was advertised as having all the DLC content including future content, then it turned out it only included the first X sets - some people were pissed off. (The messaging was somewhat contradictory and reigion-specific) And there have been a few season passes that promised something like "4 DLC packages" but one of the packages was only a multiplayer map or skins or something. But I don't think there's been one that flat out didn't come close to including what it said it would.

[Rendakor]

You called them prepay for vaporware; the limited few that I've bought have not been vaporware so I was confused.

[schild]

Star Citizen isn't vaporware though. It's unfinishable bloatware that can never deliver to the expectations that are making people throw thousands of dollars at it.

[Paelos]

Star Citizen will absolutely attempt to launch something. It will just be crap and dash the dreams of the backers while being 15% feature complete, as Schild said.

Then Chris Roberts will lick the blood from his fingers in front of a huge MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner.

[ajax34i]

Launching doesn't make sense to me.   It doesn't make sense to burst everyone's bubble; it makes a lot more sense to keep bloating it up while getting paid for promises.

Imagine you inherited the project, what would you do?  If you immediately release as is, it's shit; your reputation is gone on release day.  If you work to fix it, then you're working, but backers have paid their due already, they're not paying you more.  If you promise to not just fix it, but make it even better (for additional funds) then you get paid now for work later, and just pass the project on to someone else once you've had enough income.

My prediction is that the website will stop getting updated once he notices that promises of new features generate forum interest but $0 additional income from backers, and that will be that.

[Thrawn]

Imagine you inherited the project, what would you do?

Spin some story about poorly spent money and launch a second Kickstarter with even more promises and pre-order bonuses and dreams of an even bigger game and getting the current project back on track.

[Venkman]

I think ajax has it right. There's no reason to launch ever. No bubble burst, you're just in foreverdevelopment, and the people who start leaving do so because of old age, boredom, or most rarely, coming down with a case of the smarts. People leaving in a trickle does not a bad PR statement make. That's much better PR than whatever they manage to launch.

[Teleku]

I don't know, I think they truly believe in what they are making, and are 100% confident they can do it.  It’s dumb, because they'll never be able to live up to the hype or get the features they promised working.  But I don't think this is some intentional malevolent scam.  Just a bunch of naive nerds who bought into their own hype, and doing everything they can to keep funding their totally awesome project that keeps taking longer to make than they thought for some reason.

[rattran]

Just wait for the announcement that the indefinite delay is for simultaneous release on PC, Xbone, PS4, and Phantom consoles. But please buy this next concept of a concept of a ship, only $399.99 for a limited time! ad infinum

[Malakili]

I don't know, I think they truly believe in what they are making, and are 100% confident they can do it.  It’s dumb, because they'll never be able to live up to the hype or get the features they promised working.  But I don't think this is some intentional malevolent scam.  Just a bunch of naive nerds who bought into their own hype, and doing everything they can to keep funding their totally awesome project that keeps taking longer to make than they thought for some reason.

I tend to think this is it.  I mean, maybe it really is malicious and bordering on a scam.  But I suspect they've actually just bought into their own hype.

[Hoax]

That may be how it started but by now with the money just rolling in and along with that the pressure to get every one of these ridiculous features working together...

Its just bad business to actually release the final release aka an actual full game. But if they can promise a new awesome amazing feature and then blame a delay of another 2-4 months on incorporating it into the amazing full game they totally have almost finished that buys them more time to make things work.

[Venkman]

That may be how it started but by now with the money just rolling in and along with that the pressure to get every one of these ridiculous features working together...

Its just bad business to actually release the final release aka an actual full game. But if they can promise a new awesome amazing feature and then blame a delay of another 2-4 months on incorporating it into the amazing full game they totally have almost finished that buys them more time to make things work.

This. This is turning a job for life project. The job is being in the constant state of delivering rather than really focused on any finite delivery. Or: working with fluid end goals.

They can just keep on working on it until eventually the intended audience loses interest. Then what they have is whatever engine and assets they've created. If they they time it right, those assets give them golden parachutes when, say, Gearbox or Microsoft buys them up. But if they're wrong, it's just a firesale of office equipment and hard drives well after everyone's already gotten jobs elsewhere. Both end up with some guy who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars wanting to sue them for undelivery. But after dumping all that cash, he can't afford to fight corporate lawyers and would be dead list in line through the bankruptcy proceeding anyway

The worst thing they can do is launch a complete product that sucks. And after all this time and dollars, they'd need to be living in some kind of opiate infused echo chamber to feel they can pull off something approximate to the expectations.

[Lucas]

Just to add to the discussion, here's what Chris Roberts wrote in his last Letter from the Chairman:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14184-Letter-From-The-Chairman

I sometimes get asked why continue to raise money. Haven’t you already raised enough to make the game? The answer is that Star Citizen isn’t a normal game. It’s not being developed like a normal game and it’s not being funded like a normal game. I’ve had to toss aside a lot of my knowledge from the old way of developing and embrace a completely new world. There is no publisher. There is no venture capitalist wanting a massive return in three years. There is no need to cram the game onto a disc and hope we got it all right. Star Citizen is not the type of game that will be played for a few weeks, then put on a shelf to gather dust. Instead of building a game in secrecy we can be fully open with you as a community who have made this game possible. We can involve the future player base in the creative feedback loop as we develop and iterate core systems. As a group we are all involved and united in our quest to make the best game possible.

I have a lot of industry friends pat me on the back and say, “Wow, it must be so great to be operating in profit even before you ship!” Their look usually turns to incredulity when I explain that my intention is for all the money we bring in before launch to be spent on development. It is the community, from the existing backers who continue to support the game, to new members who join every day who are setting the level of ambition and budget for Star Citizen. Every effort is about enriching the game’s vision. Funding to date has allowed us to go so far beyond what I thought was possible in 2012. You’re still getting that game, no question, but it will be all the richer and so much more immersive because of the additional funding.

Long ago I stopped looking at this game the way I did when I worked for a publisher who gave me a fixed budget to make a retail game. I now look at our monthly fundraising and use that to set the amount of resources being used to develop this game. We keep a healthy cash reserve so that if funding stopped tomorrow we would still be able to deliver Star Citizen (not quite to the current level of ambition, but well above what was planned in Oct 2012). If you combine our in-house staff and outsourced developers, we now number more than 280 people. Your support has created a significant number of jobs in the gaming industry. (And no matter what you might have heard, only a small number of our team is tasked with designing new ships!)

If we had raised the original amount and no more, we wouldn’t be able to deliver involved capital ship systems or the level of FPS gameplay that we are now planning for planets in the Persistent Universe. Nor would have the time or budget to continually upgrade the game with new features like Physically Based Rendering (PBR), or continually strive to make the art assets better. Just compare the Hornet from October 2012 to the current PBR Hornet in Arena Commander. Our ability to iterate in Arena Commander, to try different flight or targeting schemes, or add new game modes that are test beds for future Persistent Universe gameplay is all due to our increased funding, as is the ability to deliver FPS, Planetside and Squadron 42 as modules or episodic content for the community all before the game is “done.” And in the process, you’re giving us the time to get it right, and you’re giving us more opportunities to share our work with you.

I know some people are afraid of “feature creep” and the game never being finished as we keep adding functionality and content to the mix with increased funding. I would say that this would be fair criticism if we were delivering this game at retail and on disc. However, we are online and already pushing out builds, well before Star Citizen reaches what anyone would consider a “finished” stage. Just because we haven’t implemented a planned feature or built a certain asset yet doesn’t prevent us from sharing the game with everyone right now. It’s this evolved process which gives us the Hangar and Arena Commander and so many modules yet to come. We’re sharing the game as it’s being built and it’s an amazing opportunity for everyone who has backed, to have input on the direction the game is going. You just don’t get this in the traditional game business.

Ship sales and new members of our community are the two main fund raising sources. I want to stress that no one has to or should contribute more than the basic amount for a starting package. Everything is earnable in the game with enough time (and skill). However, if you like the direction we are taking and want to contribute more to the development of Star Citizen, then purchasing different ships with diverse roles are a great way to give back for this support. The new ships add interesting new gameplay and populating the future Persistent Universe with a range of different ships, flown by players pursuing all kinds of professions, will only add to the richness of the game once it’s fully live.

That’s what Star Citizen is about: the creative freedom to build something unlike anything that has been done before and the ability to do it with the support of a community that is as passionate about this game as I am. We want to make the Best Damn Space Sim Ever, and with your continued support I know we will.

[HaemishM]

Open-ended budget on an open-ending project with an open-ended feature list funded by customers willing to spend $30 on a towel and involved in the design process? WHAT COULD GO WRONG??

[Maven]

The man is not going to shut off the money faucet by saying "Maybe we shouldn't do this." He'll find a way to justify the use of the cash and rationalize it to himself and others. It's easy to think of the right thing to say and stick to it as a marketing line. Isn't that what politicians do? Talking points?

I'm looking forward to the legal cases that arise out of this.

"Some people are afraid of feature creep." That's so telling. It's not about delivering to retail on a disc. It's about setting a deadline with a limited feature set and delivering. You want to have a Minecraft style release schedule, great. But just because you say all the money is going to eventually go into development doesn't mean it will. As you can see, it's already gone into things that have nothing to do with the game, like freakin' towels.

[Venkman]

A year from now we'll finally be able to update the phrase "Remember, PT Barnum said..."

[UnSub]

I like how Roberts has turned what any sane person would consider a huge problem with project planning into an asset used to attract more money.

[Sir T]

I like how the rhetoric is starting to show major parallels with claims made for the Battlecruiser games made by a certain Smart person.