Will one of you MMOG gurus please explain to me ....

[tazelbain]

Luck as HP. When your Luck runs out, you die.

[CmdrSlack]

As a European, Indians vs Cowboys doesn't have that much appeal to me. Luckily our history has something similar. I just wonder why no-one has made Nazis vs. Jews MMOG yet? The setting is perfect for all kinds of PVP. As a Nazi, you could kill Jews, take their property and advance your career in SS or other organizations. As a Jew, you could amass Nazi money, gather Nazi blood for your rituals and prepare your world domination.

That would be rad.

Dude, don't Godwin an otherwise good thread.

[Strazos]

Not only that I'm not sure about the marketability of a wild west MMO. How would it play in Asia?

If devs would shoot for successful niche games, instead of trying to appeal to everyone, then how the game plays in Asia wouldn't necessarily be relevant.

[Kamen]

Lot's of interesting links and points made.  Let me respond to a number of them in no particular order:

The only game I'm seeing that comes close to what I was originally looking for was the 1859 one.  From what I read at that site it appears to be more along the lines of somebody's dream or idea than a credible concept.  Pretty much in the pre-concept stage and has been there quite a while from the looks of it.

Slavery: Could the setting not be post-1865?  If not, could the exact time and place of our wild west world just be finessed or ignored?  Obviously slavery should not be a part of this world.  Can't we be historically based without being historically accurate?

Cowboys vs Indians, genocide, and the ugly “unfun” part of history:  Two posters made lame attempts at being sarcastic about this problem and all I can say is "it's how you do it".  Look at Roma Victor.  Do you see players nailing Jews to crosses?  It's easy to just make a fantasy world and avoid the problems of historical baggage, and maybe I am just to naïve to know better, but I bet it could be done by somebody smarter than me.

Crafting, stores, the carebear side of the wild west:  Ever play ATitD?  Crafting can be fun.  Ever play Eve or Second Life?  Running a store, building a business, etc can be fun.  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you only need a small segment of your players to enjoy hard core crafting to provide enough goods and services for the people who make up the bulk of the game - the PvPer’s?

Permadeath:  I've never been a fan of permadeath for the reasons I am sure you MMOG gurus already know.  I don't want to spend a year working on a crafter and have some griefer 15 minutes into the game walk into my store, pull out a shotgun, and blow my head off.  So how can you have a persistent online wild west world without permadeath?  I guess the Westworld approach might work.  I'm not qualified to answer the problem, I just know I wouldn't want to play any online game where I have a significant amount of time devoted to developing my character that can be wiped out from one mistake or poorly timed phone call.

Regards

[slog]

Not only that I'm not sure about the marketability of a wild west MMO. How would it play in Asia?

If devs would shoot for successful niche games, instead of trying to appeal to everyone, then how the game plays in Asia wouldn't necessarily be relevant.

It's hard to be niche when a MMORPG costs so much money to make.

[tkinnun0]

Cowboys vs Indians, genocide, and the ugly “unfun” part of history

Can't have that, so let's just ignore it, pretend it never happened.

[Afropuff]

Its done all the time.

[tmp]

Lot's of interesting links and points made.  Let me respond to a number of them in no particular order:
Slavery: Could the setting not be post-1865?  If not, could the exact time and place of our wild west world just be finessed or ignored?  Obviously slavery should not be a part of this world.  Can't we be historically based without being historically accurate?

I don't see why it "obviously" shouldn't be part of the world. You'll probably not want to allow player personally participate in this sort of activity, but it doesn't mean it cannot be made part of world setting and referenced in dialogues, settings, quest setups etc. Hey, if done right you could maybe even have people learn a thing or two as the result.

Just because it was shitty thing to do doesn't mean it has to be swept under rug so everyone can pretend the pink elephant in the middle of living room never was there.

[WayAbvPar]

Thanks for all the leads guys, I'll look things over in depth but at first blush it seems most everything is in the concept stage with a lot of "OMG we will have the PC police WTFPWNing us" hand wringing.  You guys also seem to have one or two tinfoil hat posters here don't you?  Like I said, I'm just a dumbassed gamer and just would like to see some sort of wild west oriented MMOG.  So, FWIW:

Diku?  Uhh no.  Wait, let's make that HELL NO.

Magic in the wild west?   Make people who select to be Native Americans better at some tasks/skills but let's try and stay from being "magic".

Slavery?  Ignore it.  Don't incorporate anything related to it.  What could possibly be fun about that crap anyway?

Confict?  Hell yeah, and plenty of it!  Some great guilds are possible:  Various Indian tribes, The U.S. Army, Outlaws, Mexicans, etc.  I really think you guys might be overly worried about the PC police.  JMO, but can't you can be historically based without being historically accurate?  Letting guilds control areas gives the catasses something to sink their teeth into.

Maybe I'm just simplistic, I want heavy crafting (farming, mining, stores, etc) with plenty of non-consentual PvP available such asstreet gun fights, bar fights, range wars, bank robbing, etc. Couple this with the ability of guilds to control land and you have Eve (my game) in the wild west.  Is that historically accurate?  No, but it's historically based, and I bet it could be fun.

I would SO buy this game.

[slog]

With Non consentual PvP, there might be a few thousand (maybe even 10k) who would also buy it.
I don't think that's not enough of a market giving the costs.

Gunfights also kinda lose their luster after you respawn for the 30th time.

[Venkman]

Game worlds can ignore historical accuracy for the very same reason movies and TV can: the average person is seeking entertainment, and maybe some validation that their perception of history replete with a bunch of bumbling rock throwers is accurate. I take a very dim view with folks who spout TV fact, but otherwise would be fine with a game world that doesn't at all claim accuracy.

[WayAbvPar]

With Non consentual PvP, there might be a few thousand (maybe even 10k) who would also buy it.
I don't think that's not enough of a market giving the costs.

Gunfights also kinda lose their luster after you respawn for the 30th time.

Totally unfettered non-consentual PvP would be a mess. Something like high sec space (EVE) or heavily guarded towns (UO) would work- you are free to engage in combat, but if you start it, you are getting your ass handed to you by the authorities. Maybe some random posses could roam the wilderness near towns to scare off the ne'erdowells, with their frequency and power getting lower as you get further from civilization. Bushwhacking bandits were a problem, so the ganker PKs would fill that role nicely.

[squirrel]

Cowboys vs Indians, genocide, and the ugly “unfun” part of history

Can't have that, so let's just ignore it, pretend it never happened.

It's a game. You know, game? It doesn't have to be a chronicle of all man's evils. It's not a text book pal.

[Bokonon]

Walking into an open-PVP town to get something to drink at a bar will be like strolling through a zombie movie where the zombies not only want your flesh, they have guns.

Alternate Wild West with Zombies?

Your ideas intrigue me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

:)

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

[pxib]

Totally unfettered non-consentual PvP would be a mess. Something like high sec space (EVE) or heavily guarded towns (UO) would work- you are free to engage in combat, but if you start it, you are getting your ass handed to you by the authorities.

EVE works because the game is heavily abstracted and there are layers of defense before damage is dealt. Fights take a long time and involve a variety of tactics because each ship has so many spells and abilities that piercing them all is a bit of a puzzle. The standard tropes of pulp fiction's cowboy genre don't allow for that sort of complexity. UO is a better example. Inside town there are guards who kill you in a single hit. Outside town there are teams of gankers who kill you in less than three seconds.

Two words: Trammel, Felucca. Which was more popular?

Maybe some random posses could roam the wilderness near towns to scare off the ne'erdowells, with their frequency and power getting lower as you get further from civilization. Bushwhacking bandits were a problem, so the ganker PKs would fill that role nicely.

Bushwhacking bandits were a problem. That's why only the most poor, desperate, helpless folks ended up on the frontier. Most Americans stayed in the cities of the east and midwest because although life was a dull grind, at least there weren't roaming gangs of ne'er-do-wells waiting to rob your house, rape your daughter, and run off with your herd every time you took a trip to town to buy some sugar.

Being the lone lawman fighting hordes of outlaws to keep your town safe makes for cool cinema... because ultimately the lawman wins and order is restored. In UO and EVE the outlaws always win... and without the constant intervention of NPC law enforcement demigods, the world would descend into a messy and rather unfun chaos.

Another thing about cinema: It cuts every unnecessary scene. You don't watch the lawman ride his horse for half an hour. You don't watch the prospector sit in the bar for two and a half hours trying to forget his sorrows. You don't watch a cowboy cook and eat dinner alone. Life, even in fascinating and dangerous places, is mostly a boring affair. Players in a game want to take part in frequent action scenes. In a single player game you can skip to those segments, but in a persistant world everything has to happen real time for everybody. Either the game ends up as boring as real life, or the frequency of exciting action becomes so extreme that it loses its power to surprise and entertain.

What you are imagining when you think you'd like to play a wild west MMORPG is the two or three good stories you'd have after playing the game for two and a half years. All the rest of the gameplay would be too boring and repetative to mention. "Then some outlaws jumped us and we made a close escape," isn't a good story if it happens every time you leave town. Still, it's a better story than "Then some outlaws jumped us and we died," and there's no reason not to assume that one would be less common.

Alternate Wild West with Zombies?

I know! Pretty awesome. Interestingly, zombies are also the only archetype I could think of both mindless and violent enough to represent the majority of players attracted to non-consentual PvP.  Nobody ever complains that zombie AI isn't complex enough, for example, or that their respawn rate seems unrealistic. It would certainly work better with the DIKU model... level up fighting zombies instead of prairie critters. I'll go get my head measured for a money hat.

[Slayerik]

Here is my idea for the game.

First off, include Indians and slavery. Hope for ACLU and other organizations to make a fuss (thus producing a free buzz, there is no such thing as bad publicity). You would not exploit this, but could use it for mission purposes or bounty stuff.

Skill based system. Offline skill gain (ala EVE), online accelerated skill gain. What I mean by this is if you are out hunting deer or contracted to fight off Indians or something, your gun accuracy skill gains at 2x. There would be a cap to offline skill gain for PVP skills. Maybe have 2 trees of skills, combat and non-combat. Can train one of each at a time.

Weapons would have to be range based I would think. There would be dueling pistols, long range rifles, shotguns, cheaper pistols, etc. Master crafted ones could increase accuracy/damage.

Death. Some percentage of PVP skills are lost, as well as any weapon you had equipped, and cash on hand. You will not wanted to just run around on a killing spree, choose your battles and risk vrs. reward carefully. You wake up in a cheap hospital be tended by whores.

Banks would be hugely important due to this fact. To knock a bank off, you would need organization, a lot of numbers, and a big set of nuts.

Player Housing/ Buildings. Make your own Deadwood. Skills for this could be raised over time, and could be quite lucrative if dedicated towards this as a profession. Not everyone will have a pocket Architect.  After a town has been established, marshalls move in for security and such. Player housing would be needed for storage, bank will only have only so many slots.

Duel would be an event that two characters initiate and both accept. The actual duel would be a mini game, semi twitch. Something like it has a generic body in front of you with your crosshairs starting at a random spot along the edge of the gui. First shot to land directly in a kill zone wins duel.  Skills could help the steadiness of the hand, speed of re-fire, size of kill zone, speed of crosshair. You could do a sort of practice with beer and whiskey bottles to learn the mechanics and get used to how your skills are effecting it.

Horses arent cheap. There is a reason stealing a horse was a hanging offense. People could make money off buying a horse and buggy and doing deliveries/trading/passengers (tradewars/eve-esque). Might have to hire NPC or PC guards to give a better chance against an ambush.

Gambling. No limit holdem minigame (tournament form), standard dealer's choice, etc).

Some social skills. Some are improved via drinks, others lowered.

Bar fights. Straight from AoC idea, penalty free. Loser cant go in the tavern for a while.


There's my 10 min brainstorm idea for a WW MMO.

[Slayerik]

I know! Pretty awesome. Interestingly, zombies are also the only archetype I could think of both mindless and violent enough to represent the majority of players attracted to non-consentual PvP.  Nobody ever complains that zombie AI isn't complex enough, for example, or that their respawn rate seems unrealistic. It would certainly work better with the DIKU model... level up fighting zombies instead of prairie critters. I'll go get my head measured for a money hat.

Yeah, lets generalize a little more.

[tazelbain]

pxib:

[naum]

Lots of possibilities here, and I've wished for an MMOG placed in such a setting... ...but to make it truly interesting, would have to deviate a bit from reality -- I am thinking in the vein of Wild Wild West TV show (not the craptacular Will Smith movie)...

Sure, there can be all the thrills of gunfights, bank robbery, stage coach robbery, train robbery, saloon gambling and frolicing, horses, riverboats, etc... ...but throw in Indian spirts, cursed and blessed artifacts, witch doctors, tribal priests, missionionaries and Christian priests with supernatural power.

Robber barons, indian chief/warriors, holy men, marshalls/sheriffs, plantation owners, sharecropper lords, army generals, etc... ...could make for a colorful game...

[Morfiend]

I think some thing along the lines of "The Dark Tower" as a MMOG would do better. Wild West meets Post Apocalyptical Future, that way you could have all the standard stuff like Six Shooter, but also you could discover "old tech". I donno. Pure wild west doesnt really appeal to me. Maybe Wild West meets Steampunk kind of like the crappy Will Smith movie The Wild Wild West. That could be interesting also.
The one thing is, the setting does NOT lend its self to Diku (Hey Signe, DIKU DIKU DIKU), because how would you do a tank class? Brawler I guess or something, but that would just seem really out of place in a pure wild west setting to me.

[tmp]

Bushwhacking bandits were a problem. That's why only the most poor, desperate, helpless folks ended up on the frontier. Most Americans stayed in the cities of the east and midwest because although life was a dull grind, at least there weren't roaming gangs of ne'er-do-wells waiting to rob your house, rape your daughter, and run off with your herd every time you took a trip to town to buy some sugar.

Being the lone lawman fighting hordes of outlaws to keep your town safe makes for cool cinema... because ultimately the lawman wins and order is restored. In UO and EVE the outlaws always win... and without the constant intervention of NPC law enforcement demigods, the world would descend into a messy and rather unfun chaos.

I think you hit on something here. The Wild West, you have the necessity of 'law enforcement demigoods' to keep things running in semi-order. They are the heroes who do the cool things and ultimately win. Then you have countless amounts of bandits roaming about and causing trouble in many different ways. *And* it's common for MMO to put player in the shoes of nearly god-like characters who can win against the odds.

In short, it would probably be quite workable if you put the players in the role of the law-enforcers in the wild west, while the bandit role is limited to NPCs. It may not appeal to all-out PvP crowd but it'd be possibly quite doable for the mainstream PvE-oriented audience. Heck, the old coin-ops utilized the very same gameplay model (lone sheriff, and the levels filled with countless generic bandits and a 'super bandit' bosses with all sorts of tricks every now and then)

[trias_e]

If anyone could figure out a way to make PvP that was a rare occurance due to harsh consequences but occasionally fathomable and possible (only if really important to do so, for honor or politics or economics or whatever), that would be cool.  "x got into a duel at dawn with y" with light penalty or even 'x murdered y' with harsh ones would then be a big deal.  That would be cool, I say again.  Naming policy here would be nice, so x wouldn't be 'reginald dicknut' and y wouldn't be 'jez jamez'.  I suppose it would be tough to maintain realism without having perma-death, which is probably unacceptable.  But maybe one could figure out some sort of compromise to make PvP meaningful.

I also think that an alternate wild west setting would work best.  Something with a bit more variation, less loaded with baggage, and the ability to fit the setting to the needs of the game all push in that direction.

[Nebu]

Though I know it would kill box sales, this type of game would be one in which perma-death would add an interesting dynamic.  Gaining accuracy and speed through gunfights would make you a scary person to tangle with and thus would add to reputation in game.

Noone ever minded dying in the Boot Hill table top because rerolling was pretty fun and dying wasn't all that painful.  I could see that here as well, especially if people could opt out of gunfights (duels).  I do see this as being easily exploitable though... working around that could take some thought.

Edit: Ok, perma death is never a good idea and would be too niche to consider.  I just got carried away.

[Margalis]

Morphiend is right in that a pure WW game wouldn't really have legs. Not enough items or enemies. Every enemy would be some angry human - boring.

Add in some zombies, vampires, creatures, mutants, etc. and you might have something.

[UnSub]

In many ways Fallen Earth might meet some of these requirements. It's a post-apoc MMOG and, whenever it finally launches, will likely put players into a pretty disparate, pared back existance.

But yeah, it's either Deadlands or maybe Fallen Earth that will provide you with a "Western" MMOG. And neither appear anywhere close to launch.

[slog]

Zombies.  And Robots.  Robots are cool.  Maybe even Zombie robots.  Or you could have three factions and do realm PvP like DAOC

Faction 1) Zombies
Faction 2) Robots with gunz
Faction 3) Western Peoplez.

[Bokonon]

If only Lost Continents hadn't been folded. It was aiming for 20s/30s/40s Pulp Fiction goodness. Cowboys and robots and headshrinkers and zombies, oh my! But that is long past now.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

[Nebu]

You guys are trying to ruin my Wild West MMOG dreams by adding zombies and robots.  I hate you!

I WANT BOOT HILL ONLINE DAMNIT!

[WayAbvPar]

You guys are trying to ruin my Wild West MMOG dreams by adding zombies and robots.  I hate you!

I WANT BOOT HILL ONLINE DAMNIT!

I was having trouble sleeping last night...I think I had half this game designed in my head by the time I finally drifted off. Wish I had 25M and an staff of 100 at my disposal.

[Nebu]

I'll write you a check for $25 million right now.  If you need REAL money, you may have to start looking elsewhere.

[Daeven]

Heh. I'm working on a Pen and Paper setting sort of along these lines. Except it's in the 1730's instead of 18xx's.

You have all of the Spanish main to play with, wars between the Spanish, English French and their various colonists and allies, Native American Shamans / Druids, European magic based on intervention of the saints (ala Darklands), Alchemy and 'Electromancy', All sorts of Secret Societies to play with (Freemasons, Templars, Illuminati)...

But then I'm biased I guess. I find the Early Colonial period far more interesting than the 'wild west'.

*shrug*

[Tale]

I would solve Cowboys vs Indians with lore: in the area of the game, much genocide has already taken place. While many say it happened due to disease and tribal infighting, there are clues it was due to sinister actions of The Bad Boss (massacres, driving tribes out, deliberately spreading disease, all kinds of rumoured horrors). There are some surviving Indians in quest NPC and trader roles, lamenting the loss of their people and telling their side of the story, and the white people vary from sympathetic to neutral to cheering the Bad Boss on. No evidence is ever quite conclusive.

This leaves the main plot open to conflicts between the good, the bad and the ugly in the game world. At the same time, it allows the game to pay respect to Native American culture and highlight historical wrongs.