SW - Episode 7: Mary Sue wakes up but there's no coffee. RAGE.

[Rendakor]

I disagree. I think it's much more interesting to read someone articulating why they like something beyond just their initial emotional reaction. It's also a lot harder to do than just explaining why something sucks, and I think in a lot of cases people are reluctant to spend a lot of time thinking about why they like something out of fear of diminishing it somehow.

What I meant was more along the lines of, positive comments about a game rarely generate discussion. When they do it's often either "I like that too!" (discussion over) or "How could you like that, it sucks because reasons!" I can't remember the last time I've been in a discussion online with several people just talking about how good something was that was more meaningful than the above.

[Merusk]

Why implement something that would never get used.

 

And the prequels did suck.  I didn't realize this was a subject for debate.

Plenty of kids enjoyed them. You remember kids, right? Like the kind of person who ignores all the contrivances and plot holes that put two teens up against their dad who's THE WORST guy in the galaxy. But it's cool because they have Space magic to help them fight and a totally bitchin' cool older guy with a hot rod who's into the sister, even though she's 15 years younger.

Yep, it is fair to say they are  kids films,  which is why they feature dismemberment, torture, mass murder of children, tax disputes, and kids retrieving their father's severed head.

Hey, guess what, in the 70's and 80's people didn't give as big of a shit about it. We weren't as goddamn protectionist about the "precious angels" and "childhoold innocence" which is utter bullshit.

The Last Unicorn was terrifying with the red bull. Neverending Story was about death and the void and the emptiness of both. ET was creepy as shit and dealt with death. The Dark Crystal was creepy as fuck and involved no fluffy bunnies.  Labyrinth put nightmares of being abudcted into kid's heads. The Secret of Nimh was prety goddamn dark and killed Nicodemus in a very graphic manner.  The Fox and the Hound killed an aggressive but legitimately good dog. Bambi's mom was shot. Voltron killed a main cast member. Optimus Prime died. Watership Fucking Down was a regular showing in 4th and 5th grade classes.

Let's not forget Gremlins, Ghostbusters, Stand By Me, Indiana Jones and the temple of Doom, Goonies, Something Wicked this Way Comes also being big movies we all saw before the age of 11 or 12.

So yeah. Star Wars was a kids movie.

Prequels were made for ungrateful grumpy old assholes with hooks for kids. Only one group enjoyed it.

[Teleku]

Kids enjoyed them is not a defense.  There are a great many things I liked as a child that when I've gone back to watch or read.........  

Children liking it and everybody else hating it should probably be the most damning thing about the films.

[Merusk]

It's not a defense. It's saying grow the fuck up, realize it's not for you and let kids enjoy it.

But the internet loves pretending they're still teenagers who haven't seen a boob.

[Teleku]

........

The internet/Adults:  "God those prequel movies were horrible films."

Merusk:  "Oh yeah, well kids liked them!"

Internet/Me:  "Kids like lots of terrible shit."

Merusk:  "Grow up, you act like you've never seen a boob!"

That's the current logical flow I'm getting from this argument.  We are adults discussing how terrible and/or un-enjoyable a movie was (a time honored tradition).  I'm not getting how the opinion of children matter concerning this, or how we are in any way not letting "kids enjoy it."  As you've said, they'll watch it (and a lot of other shit) regardless of what their parents think or say.  My nephews watch a lot of terrible shit on TV while their mother and I sit back on the couch making fun of it while drinking (a time honored tradition). 

Now if they were a completely kids only focused films, like say Barney or what ever, that would be one thing.  What's sadder than a bunch of adults sitting around and arguing over the theatrical merits of a Barney movie.  It really is only for them.  But the Star Wars prequels WERE made and marketed with the intention that adults should watch them as well, which puts them into the greater pool of films up for criticism.

Honestly, I'm (mostly) not trying to be a dick.  I just don't get what argument you are trying to make, and I've seen you bring up 'the children' when discussing these movies in the past.

[eldaec]

I haven't  come across many (or possibly any) people who liked the prequels even if they are on the right side of whatever the prequel equivalent of the ewok line is. I mean sure, kids will sit in front of the action sequences, but they aren't exactly Toy Story. People who were 10 for Phantom Menace are now 25 years old, there must be some of them posting here.

Calling something a kids film doesn't mean you get to lower standards.

[01101010]

It's not a defense. It's saying grow the fuck up, realize it's not for you and let kids enjoy it.

But the internet loves pretending they're still teenagers who haven't seen a boob.

Problem with that is, Star Wars (4,5,6 - movies) have an audience that is not going to give that up to a younger generation. The new generation can go get their own god damn original trilogy. When you tie the name of something beloved by a previous generation, yeah they are going to show interest in it and it better be appropriate and on par or else. But hey... this is just me telling the kids to get off my lawn. 

[Samwise]

Oo, we should talk about what makes the original trilogy films enjoyable for grown people to watch, in terms of qualities that can be objectively evaluated separate from nostalgia.  That'll piss off all the bad movie apologists without giving them "you guys just hate everything" to fall back on.  

You know how A New Hope has a plot that makes sense and causes one scene to follow the next?  It makes you want to keep watching because you're interested in what's going to happen next.  It's established up front that there's the Empire, which is bad, and the Rebels, which are good, and Luke is bored on his farm and craves adventure.  Luke finds Leia's message, and that leads him to Obi-Wan, who takes Luke with him to hire Han to help him find Leia, which leads them to the Death Star, which has been the center of the entire conflict.  Along the way Luke and Han both undergo growth as characters, and the end of the movie has a big exciting space battle where that character growth pays off -- Han has formed bonds with Luke and Leia that give him priorities above his own immediate self-interest, which leads him to show up at the end to give Luke the opening he needs, and Luke has gained self-confidence and new abilities that help him land the critical shot.  

It's not complicated, but everything fits together, like it's a story someone is telling you.  It makes it fun to pay attention to.

[Sir T]

ESB has the falcon in the asteroid belt and what else am I missing?

"The Falcon in the asteroid belt" took up half the movie. And was also Star Destroyers in the asteroid belt. And Tie Bombers in the Asteroid belt. And was preceded by 2 burst of the Ion cannon which you might call a transition sequence but still involved Something getting shot at IN SPACE!!! And was followed by The falcon with a star destroyer on the Falcons ass. And the Falcon locked onto the Star destroyer and then floating in rubbish.

So yeah, just one scene, so there was fuck all space at all.  

[lamaros]

I always thought the original three movies were (nearly) as naff and etc as you guys think the first three are. I didn't watch them as a child and I find the adult love really strange. I get it more now than I did when I was in high school, when I found it truly bizarre that kids who would bully star trek nerds loved star wars to death, but it is still pretty odd.


Please do. I would love to hear from all the adults who love Star Wars - excepting of course all those who watched them as a child and still haven't had the scales fall from their eyes. I think it will be a rather short discussion.

[Maven]

This is pretty good.

[MahrinSkel]

I think anyone that has decided they hate this movie based on the first teaser for the first trailer is either so butthurt over the prequels they should consider therapy, or working so hard at their cynical hatred for all things that they should consider a lobotomy.

By the same token, you shouldn't be deciding you like the movie based on this, either.  It's the most current entry in what will be a long series of them building up hype and anticipation.  Since I've already decided I will see it based on the participation of the original cast alone, that hype is wasted on me.  I might be convinced to see it opening weekend, but that's unlikely no matter how good it looks (I hate crowds, lines, and crappy neck-bending seats in the theater). The last time I saw a major movie on opening day, it was because my employer rented out a theater for a special showing.

--Dave

[Velorath]

Oo, we should talk about what makes the original trilogy films enjoyable for grown people to watch, in terms of qualities that can be objectively evaluated separate from nostalgia.  That'll piss off all the bad movie apologists without giving them "you guys just hate everything" to fall back on.  

I'm not a particularly big Star Wars fan, but I think there are a number of things that you can say make the original films enjoyable. There are a lot of good practical special effects, which is something I enjoy on a level that CG just doesn't do for me. Stuff like the prequel trilogy and the Hobbit movies lack a sense of physicality to a lot of their CG action sequences. There's an ingenuity behind a lot of the effects shots in the original trilogy that for whatever reason I really appreciate when I watch those scenes. That also includes the puppeteer work, particularly Frank Oz's work bringing Yoda to life. The effects manage to convey a sense of scale and scope that was pretty uncommon in movies prior to CG as well (and I'll still take the special effects of something like the AT-ATs over the special effects of something like Transformers any day).

There's also some good performances from Harrison Ford, Anthony Daniels, James Earl Jones, Peter Cushing, Ian McDiarmid, and Alec Guinness. Phil Brown as Uncle Owen is also pretty fun to watch even though he doesn't get a lot of screen time. I guess maybe it says something that almost all the best characters in the series are either frequently dicks (Solo, C3P0, Owen, and even Yoda when Luke first meets him), or are the series villains.

It also helps that there's just such a lack of great stuff in the genre, either Sci-Fi or Fantasy depending on how you choose to look at it, that something like the original trilogy stands out even if it isn't Citizen Kane or The Godfather. It took us over 30 years after Return of the Jedi to get Guardians of the Galaxy. What did we get in between then that's done what Star Wars was doing better than Star Wars?

[MahrinSkel]

What did we get in between then that's done what Star Wars was doing better than Star Wars?

[Evildrider]

Possible plot spoiler?

[Sir T]

I think a lot of what made the Star wars "STAR WARS" was actually the second movie (which Lucas had little to do with). The first one was a good movie, silly but yet serious in the same way the Magnificent Seven looks quaint if you watch it now. The Firse scene hooked you and also showed you in one scene how ill equipped the Rebels were to the empire.

Its hard to realise it now because its so familiar, but in the words of Hammil, the second movie was very dark, it was mystical, it was was extremely serious and the good guys got their asses kicked HARD. The good guys were tortured for no apparent reason, for example. It was a totally different tone that dealt with some weighty issues and the audiences loved it. The fight between Vader and Luke is brilliant and is unsurpassed by the dance routines of the sequels. It stands up today as a brilliant movie, and the arc through it is flawless.

The third movie is alright but is the weakest of the 3 movies. It starts off ok, rapidly turns pretty damn stupid and then abruptly turns pretty damn good at the end. Its like the Fight over the Sarlak. The first part of that fight is brilliant, but it rapidly turns to slapstick. I read somewhere that Harrison Ford wanted Solo to be killed in it to add some wight to the thing but Lucas overuled him.

Its very telling that the best of the Movies is the one that Lucas had the least to do with. But hey, this is the guy who went on to make Howard the Duck.

Anyway, If you like him, this is that guy with glasses doing a review of the Star Wars Holiday special. It has footage of the Holiday special so you can sample it without choking your way through the whole 2 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS6PwQcCIXo

Bonus points for Hammil being virtually unrecognizable due to having to wear slightly less makeup than Kim Kardasian. I don't know why exactly, but I imagine its due to his face being smashed up when Lucas dragging him in to make this turd, if I have the timing right.

[Ingmar]

Completely stupid/useless laser hilt aside, this looks like it will be fun.

[eldaec]

Howard the duck is not a bad film

[Hawkbit]

Completely stupid/useless laser hilt aside, this looks like it will be fun.

That was exactly my take. 

[Abagadro]

Howard the duck is not a bad film

Wut?

[eldaec]

It was a bad costume. Film was OK.

[Phildo]

Also, Lucas went on to make Willow.

[murdoc]

I watched 'The Phantom Menace' with the boys on the weekend and I had truly forgotten what an awful movie that was. I think I tolerated it when it came out because the fun of anticipating a new Star Wars movie was more exciting than the actual movie ended up being.

But my God, I really did forgot how terrible that movie is from start to finish.

[Ironwood]

But kids do like it.

Elena will watch The Prequels and Moffat with nary a wince.

I, however, am usually chewing my own leg off to keep quiet.

[Samwise]

By way of contrast, the original movies stand up pretty well to rewatching.  I'm always kind of surprised when I see them again (seems like every few years or so I'll encounter some young 'un who hasn't seen them) at how much fun they are.  The thing that tends to stick out the most is how hammy the performances are, but they're compelling and entertaining in their hamminess (Luke is the only one who ever grates with his angst, and he's only about 1/10th as grating as his father after him).

[Maven]

Possible plot spoiler?

Classic bit. It's nice to see Ford with a sense of humor.

[murdoc]

But kids do like it.

Elena will watch The Prequels and Moffat with nary a wince.

I, however, am usually chewing my own leg off to keep quiet.

The boys weren't really into it - but I might be forcing Star Wars on them a little young (they are 4). They kept asking why there was no Lego...

[HaemishM]

But the internet loves pretending they're still teenagers who haven't seen a boob.

Please stop this. It's bullshit. People can legitimately dislike something without it being "hipster" or "IT'S NOT 4 U!"

[Riggswolfe]

I didn't see this on the last few pages and I'm sure you've seen it already but this Colbert defense of the saber crossguards is awesome. Honestly,it's awesome because it's Colbert more than anything else!

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/umsrnb/lightsaber-controversy

Apologies, I didn't find a direct Youtube link.

[Tannhauser]

I didn't see this on the last few pages and I'm sure you've seen it already but this Colbert defense of the saber crossguards is awesome. Honestly,it's awesome because it's Colbert more than anything else!

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/umsrnb/lightsaber-controversy

Apologies, I didn't find a direct Youtube link.

Yeah, what Colbert said!  He's got me beat by two weeks; I didn't go on release night back in 1977, the line curled around the Cine Capri theater in Phoenix.  I had to come back for a matinee the next day.  I was fourth in line and my 14 year old mind was blown away.  I'm hoping for the same experience next year.

Here's the movie theater, it was awesome. http://www.harkinstheatres.com/aboutCineCapri.aspx

[lamaros]

I didn't see this on the last few pages and I'm sure you've seen it already but this Colbert defense of the saber crossguards is awesome. Honestly,it's awesome because it's Colbert more than anything else!

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/umsrnb/lightsaber-controversy

Apologies, I didn't find a direct Youtube link.

Yeah, what Colbert said!  He's got me beat by two weeks; I didn't go on release night back in 1977, the line curled around the Cine Capri theater in Phoenix.  I had to come back for a matinee the next day.  I was fourth in line and my 14 year old mind was blown away.  I'm hoping for the same experience next year.

Here's the movie theater, it was awesome. http://www.harkinstheatres.com/aboutCineCapri.aspx

Unlikely. Youre not 14 no more. Even if it was better you wouldnt know.

[Maven]

Let him dream.

[Margalis]

Please do. I would love to hear from all the adults who love Star Wars - excepting of course all those who watched them as a child and still haven't had the scales fall from their eyes. I think it will be a rather short discussion.

This would be a pointless conversation because if you (the royal "you" I mean) can't understand why the first 3 (or really 2) movies are better than the newer 3 you have a severe lack of understanding of the basics of film.

What's better about the first 3? Uh...the acting, the script and the plot are probably good places to start.

I'm a Star Wars hater and I don't think the original 3 are great films either, but they're like 10x better than the newer 3. The newer 3 movies are total turds on every level. I don't see how anyone who understands film can think otherwise. Honestly just compare the scrolling text in New Hope to The Phantom Menace. TPM is boring literally 3 seconds into the movie!

[lamaros]

Yeah, I was getting a little carried away. The later 3 are worse. But that doesn't make the first three good.

[Samwise]

Can we agree that they achieve some minimal level of competency that makes them watchable without the aid of prescription drugs?