SWTOR

[Ratama]

One of the things you got to see today with Tython is that there is an entire quest in there to introduce the concept of romance leading to the Dark side. It is absolutely forbidden in the Jedi to get married and to have romance. According to the rules, you can get married with permission, but it very rarely happens and you basically have to prove to them that you don't particularly care about the other person. So it is complicated, and usually done to protect Force bloodlines.

So... SciFi Catholic Wizards Online?  Complete with Nazi-style eugenics? (Sorry, Godwin). 

I bet the customers get to play the role of the altar-children...  Count me in!

[Ratman_tf]

I much prefer grey, but traditionally the canon sources are black and white.

Did you miss the part where Luke walks in the front door of a smuggler's den, force chokes a couple of goons because they tried to block his way, and then mindfucks the majordomo into a situation likely to get him killed, because Han fucked up a job working for a crime lord and paid the price?

That's Badicalthon level evil right there, it even has the fucking insane sidekick characters to get the ball rolling.

Did you miss the part where Jabba kept Han frozen as a decoration, threw a dancing girl to be eaten by a huge beast thing because she wouldn't put out, and then tried to dump Luke and Co. into a creature's belly that would take a thousand years to digest them? And Luke warned Jabba over and over again that he just wanted his friend back, and was willing to pay reparations on his behalf?

[Shatter]

I always mistook that part as he was just pvping newbs

[Murgos]

Did you miss the part where Jabba kept Han frozen as a decoration, threw a dancing girl to be eaten by a huge beast thing because she wouldn't put out, and then tried to dump Luke and Co. into a creature's belly that would take a thousand years to digest them? And Luke warned Jabba over and over again that he just wanted his friend back, and was willing to pay reparations on his behalf?

Evil + evil = good?  Wat?

[Sheepherder]

And Luke warned Jabba over and over again that he just wanted his friend back, and was willing to pay reparations on his behalf?

Maybe he would have penned a letter afterwards: "Dear sir, I seem to have misplaced my lightsaber, it would be ever so nice of you if you checked the droids I gave you, I might have left it with one of them."

[Ratman_tf]

Did you miss the part where Jabba kept Han frozen as a decoration, threw a dancing girl to be eaten by a huge beast thing because she wouldn't put out, and then tried to dump Luke and Co. into a creature's belly that would take a thousand years to digest them? And Luke warned Jabba over and over again that he just wanted his friend back, and was willing to pay reparations on his behalf?

Evil + evil = good?  Wat?

People can yak until the cows come home about how evil the heroes are, but the intent is clearly that Jabba was a vile criminal, and Han Solo was a rogue who was on the road to reform. The things Luke did were because Jabba wasn't going to listen to reason, or had any integrity.

Hell, one could argue that Obi Was was an evil dick for cutting off Ponda Baba's arm. The difference here is that the Robot Chicken guys know they're making a joke about re-interpreting the character.

[tmp]

I always mistook that part as he was just pvping newbs

Nah that was classic case of clearing the dungeon trash mobs before you get to the boss.

[Merusk]

IIRC in the Novelization of ROTJ Luke does realize the Force Choke was dangerously close to the Dark Side and he shouldn't do it again.  The majordomo mindfuck is just the same trick Ben used on the Storm Troopers.  Passive suggestion rather than violence to get where he's going.

[Margalis]

IIRC in the Novelization of ROTJ Luke does realize the Force Choke was dangerously close to the Dark Side and he shouldn't do it again. 

WELL THAT SETTLES IT THEN!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lantyssa]

Thankfully using a chain to choke someone doesn't cause dark side points.

[Sheepherder]

People can yak until the cows come home about how evil the heroes are, but the intent is clearly that Jabba was a vile criminal, and Han Solo was a rogue who was on the road to reform. The things Luke did were because Jabba wasn't going to listen to reason, or had any integrity.

Hell, one could argue that Obi Was was an evil dick for cutting off Ponda Baba's arm. The difference here is that the Robot Chicken guys know they're making a joke about re-interpreting the character.

No, it's pretty fucking obvious that Lucas was going for Luke going dark side.  He even sticks Luke in a black cloak with a cyborg hand and a propensity to strangulation, (JUST LIKE VADER, I HAVE OBTAINED A REMEDIAL HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL UNDERSTANDING OF IMAGERY USED IN FILM HERPDADERP) and yet you fuckers still don't get it.  He then did the exact same thing in episode three so fucking hamfistedly that you couldn't possibly fucking miss it, because apparently you did the first time.

[Ratman_tf]

People can yak until the cows come home about how evil the heroes are, but the intent is clearly that Jabba was a vile criminal, and Han Solo was a rogue who was on the road to reform. The things Luke did were because Jabba wasn't going to listen to reason, or had any integrity.

Hell, one could argue that Obi Was was an evil dick for cutting off Ponda Baba's arm. The difference here is that the Robot Chicken guys know they're making a joke about re-interpreting the character.

No, it's pretty fucking obvious that Lucas was going for Luke going dark side.  He even sticks Luke in a black cloak with a cyborg hand and a propensity to strangulation, (JUST LIKE VADER, I HAVE OBTAINED A REMEDIAL HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL UNDERSTANDING OF IMAGERY USED IN FILM HERPDADERP) and yet you fuckers still don't get it.  He then did the exact same thing in episode three so fucking hamfistedly that you couldn't possibly fucking miss it, because apparently you did the first time.

This converation is about 500 times more interesting than SWTOR.

Lucas had a really simple thing to say with all this. "If Luke ain't careful, he'll wind up like his daddy!" This is tediously nitpicked to death in the EU with Dark Jedi, Grey Jedi, all kinds of sad fanwankery garbage that rehashes Lucas's simple point.

[Margalis]

If there's one thing we can agree upon it's that the Star Wars movies possess a high level of both literary and moral sophistication.   

He even sticks Luke in a black cloak with a cyborg hand and a propensity to strangulation

I assume that was to sell "cyborg hand Luke" action figures.

[Sheepherder]

He even sticks Luke in a black cloak with a cyborg hand and a propensity to strangulation

I assume that was to sell "cyborg hand Luke" action figures.

Now you're arguing causality.  See, Lucas has a prodigious ability to inspire deep philosophical debate.

Or, he just wrote a (samurai / Arthurian / western) movie in space. (The three types follow pretty similar conventions)

[Goreschach]

I still maintain that Star Wars was just another crappy 70's scifi cheese fest that would have been completely forgotten if not for James Earl Jones and John Williams. If I really cared, I'd make a youtube of clips from the original trilogy replacing Vader's voice with a digitized robot and the soundtrack with typical 70's synth. This would immediately prove my point.

[UnSub]

Lucas had a really simple thing to say with all this. "If Luke ain't careful, he'll wind up like his daddy!" This is tediously nitpicked to death in the EU with Dark Jedi, Grey Jedi, all kinds of sad fanwankery garbage that rehashes Lucas's simple point.

Fortunately, Lucas was there to steer everyone back to point with the introduction of midichlorians.

I was thinking the other day that the most interesting character in the Star Wars films is Senator / Emperor Palpatine. At the bare minimum, he is the most interesting actor to watch (Ian McDiarmid at least looks like he's having fun) and his character actually does stuff as opposed to moping about. He's also the crux of a lot of film events.

The Skywalker stuff is less interesting than what Palpatine gets up to. Has anyone recut the films to make him the hero?

[UnSub]

I still maintain that Star Wars was just another crappy 70's scifi cheese fest that would have been completely forgotten if not for James Earl Jones and John Williams. If I really cared, I'd make a youtube of clips from the original trilogy replacing Vader's voice with a digitized robot and the soundtrack with typical 70's synth. This would immediately prove my point.

I wish you to spend several hours of your life on this so that I may be entertained for a few minutes.

[Margalis]

I was thinking the other day that the most interesting character in the Star Wars films is Senator / Emperor Palpatine. At the bare minimum, he is the most interesting actor to watch (Ian McDiarmid at least looks like he's having fun) and his character actually does stuff as opposed to moping about. He's also the crux of a lot of film events.

Joke post?

[Fordel]

I still maintain that Star Wars was just another crappy 70's scifi cheese fest that would have been completely forgotten if not for James Earl Jones and John Williams. If I really cared, I'd make a youtube of clips from the original trilogy replacing Vader's voice with a digitized robot and the soundtrack with typical 70's synth. This would immediately prove my point.

You could say that for most movies though. How many good movies have had bad soundtracks? Where you sit there and go "This is a fantastic movie, but good lord what a shitty musical score!". Having the right music is crucial to any movies success.

[Kovacs]

I'm not sure if you're serious but I think The Tramp might disagree.

[Evildrider]

Thankfully using a chain to choke someone doesn't cause dark side points.

Ahh but did she spend a force point to do it?

[Sheepherder]

I still maintain that Star Wars was just another crappy 70's scifi cheese fest that would have been completely forgotten if not for James Earl Jones and John Williams. If I really cared, I'd make a youtube of clips from the original trilogy replacing Vader's voice with a digitized robot and the soundtrack with typical 70's synth. This would immediately prove my point.

Like Zatoichi starring Marlon Wayans, and the entire musical score being replaced by that crazy shit at the end.

[Murgos]

Casting and score are critical parts of a movie's over-all experience?

My god!  You've got it!  We'll never have a shitty movie again once this gets out!  Quick call everyone in Hollywood!

[UnSub]

I was thinking the other day that the most interesting character in the Star Wars films is Senator / Emperor Palpatine. At the bare minimum, he is the most interesting actor to watch (Ian McDiarmid at least looks like he's having fun) and his character actually does stuff as opposed to moping about. He's also the crux of a lot of film events.

Joke post?

Half serious in that McDiarmid is the most entertaining thing in the prequels, half joke in that I want to play at derailing the SWOR thread too.

[Nebu]

I'm old enough to remember watching the trilogy in the theaters and I don't know what the hell you guys are even talking about.  The level of Star Wars nerdiness here is both fascinating and terrifying.  Still, it provides something of substance lacking any real gameplay knowledge. 

[Tannhauser]

You guys don't realize who the true hero was in the films.  R2D2.

That's right, that little robot saved the universe, with a little help from his meatbag friends.
1.  He saved Padme's ship escaping from Naboo.
2.  He got Anakin's guns online to fight the Trade Federation.
3.  He successfully smuggled the plans to the Death Star to the rebellion AND kept Luke's X-wing running long enough to destroy said Death Star.
4.  Repaired the Falcon just in time to escape Vader.  Note that not even Han could fix the Falcon in time.
And so on.

Star Wars is the story of R2D2 as told through the eyes of the Skywalkers and others.  And what reward does R2 get?  A pat on the head and a hug from a ewok.  God bless you R2, god bless.

[DraconianOne]

You guys don't realize who the true hero was in the films.  R2D2.

You're missing some vital parts to that story. R2-D2 didn't have his memory wiped at the end of Revenge of the Sith so knew full well who both Obi-Wan and Yoda were and was present when Luke & Leia were born, knew where they ended up. He was also on Mustafar when Anakin/Vader killed the seperatist leaders so he he pretty much knew who Darth Vader actually was. He wasn't just some heroic little astromech - he was one of the most important agents and key lynchpins of the entire Rebellion against the Empire.

Also, Chewbacca: he knew Yoda and knew what Jedi were capable of having been on Kashyyyk when Order 66 was given and even helped Yoda escape. He must have had an idea of who Obi-Wan was - at least in respect of being a Jedi - from seeing him in action in the Mos Eisley cantina.  I suspect he knew far more about what was going on than he let on too.

[LK]

I also suspect that this wasn't the intent at first and, upon close examination of the series, was added as sort of a "in hindsight" deal.

[Sky]

Passive suggestion rather than violence to get where he's going.

Means justify the ends? Majordomo just trying to do his job and feed his family, Luke mindfucks him, at best he loses his job and goes on welfare, ruining his kid's futures. At worst, into the pit (once they get a new monster, which Luke could of course not find a passive way to avoid...leading to the monster tender's suicide). With dead Jabba, lots of out of work henchmen, too. Good guys win!

[Lakov_Sanite]

At first I hated star wars nerds, I'm starting to hate star wars itself now.

[Paelos]

At this point, I'm just wishing they hadn't started the hype train this far in advance of any realistic release date.

[Reg]

What "hype train?"  I signed up for their mailing list and get something from them maybe once a month.  Occasionally, I'll run across an interview some website has done with them.  Aside from that I'm just not seeing a whole lot of hype.

Compared to the almost daily emails from Turbine about the latest fabulous sale at the LOTRO store this is nothing.

[Ingmar]

But we have a nearly-200-page thread about it, that clearly means that Bioware has been hyping things up. 

[LK]

Good guys win!

I think the prequels did a good job, albeit hamfisted, of showing how "Good" / "Evil" can be unrealistic and spiral into something harmful, even if the intentions are good.

A Light Jedi expels emotions because they believe emotions cannot be controlled which leads to irrational decisions. So they don't attempt to control emotions, just the self to remove emotions. They simply remove the variable from the equation -- it's too risky to try because of what it might do. When the variable reintroduces itself, they aren't prepared, and that can slip to the Dark Side.  Moreover, they empower everyone around them to make decisions... even if they make the wrong decisions. They aren't leaders, but protectors, even if what they are protecting is rotten to the core.

This is the weakness of a Light Jedi -- their lack of emotion means that they may make decisions that seem heartless and unconcerned with other people and can put them on the defensive. They may, in fact, sacrifice a planet to guarantee the survival of the universe, under the right conditions.

Dark Jedi, whether they were a Light that fell or started that way, embrace emotion. They consolidate power because they do not believe others should have it; they know what's best, usually have some personal observation (mayhap a narrow understanding of that event, too) to support that, and stick with that.  (A Light Jedi, I think, doesn't assume they are ever right, and always seeks answers first, to the point of missing the opportunity to act). They will lead and bring everyone along with them for the "greater good."

A Dark Jedi's weakness is their propensity to use that power to satisfy selfish desires. They're leaders, and get involved. They aren't concerned about the well-being of others as well. They'd blow up the planet to guarantee the survival of the universe.

Neither side is willing to engender any debate on their philosophies and embrace a more nuanced interpretation of "the greater good." That conflict needs to stay intact for Star Wars as an I.P. to survive, anyway.

A "good" Dark Jedi would probably look like a benevolent dictator. A "bad" Light Jedi would let people die if it meant more people would live.

Emotions aren't themselves bad, it's when you act on them that is. Emotions are what make someone human. An ideal Light Jedi never has to act on them, because if they did, they might start making irrational decisions that betray their philosophies. An ideal Dark Jedi never learns proper control of them, because if they did, they might start making rational decisions that betray their philosophies.

A "true" Jedi would walk a balanced path, using only what is necessary to accomplish that balance, and seeking only enough power to help restore it. In order to maintain neutrality, they must have the wisdom and the resolve to introduce themselves only when necessary, and to remove themselves at the proper time. This is far more difficult than the two extremes. I imagine it's a nightmare to write too. The Jedi that embodies this would need to be a walking Deus Ex Machina with an omnipotent knowledge of the future and what's necessary to achieve that. Which would make them... boring?

I imagine this has been explored in one of the EU's?

I see a lot of these themes popping up in Tron: Legacy too.

[Paelos]

What "hype train?"  I signed up for their mailing list and get something from them maybe once a month.  Occasionally, I'll run across an interview some website has done with them.  Aside from that I'm just not seeing a whole lot of hype.

Compared to the almost daily emails from Turbine about the latest fabulous sale at the LOTRO store this is nothing.

I consider the hype train officially started when you release a 5 and a half minute cinematic trailer to the public.