SWTOR

[Draegan]

I don't mind difficult dungeons that take coordination and planning, or good playing/out of the box thinking.  However a 4 hour dungeon is a bit much.  My favorite WOW dungeon is still BRD.

[Malakili]

However a 4 hour dungeon is a bit much.  My favorite WOW dungeon is still BRD.

 

Seriously BRD was awesome, but these two sentences in a row are hilarious.

[Musashi]

There's a big difference between difficulty and mind-numbing tedium because of excessive trash.  People wiped in vanilla WoW instances not because they were really difficult, but because they were trying to cut corners to get through the trash faster.  It's a balancing act to please the people who enjoy 'a good dungeon crawl' and people who'd rather just get to the good parts.  That balancing act is sometimes referred to as 'getting the pacing right.'  What it means is:  How much trash should there be?

For some people it's about the journey.  When they get there, they want to feel like they've earned it.  It's cool.  I get it.  But I just don't think you're serving anyone when you're trying to make a game for both types of people.  You end up boning them both.  That's why every time some EQ-esque aspect of WoW gets gutted in favor of streamlined gameplay, there's a collective "Wah" from the people(?) who enjoy that kind of stuff.

[Malakili]

There's a big difference between difficulty and mind-numbing tedium because of excessive trash.  People wiped in vanilla WoW instances not because they were really difficult, but because they were trying to cut corners to get through the trash faster.  It's a balancing act to please the people who enjoy 'a good dungeon crawl' and people who'd rather just get to the good parts.  That balancing act is sometimes referred to as 'getting the pacing right.'  What it means is:  How much trash should there be?

For some people it's about the journey.  When they get there, they want to feel like they've earned it.  It's cool.  I get it.  But I just don't think you're serving anyone when you're trying to make a game for both types of people.  You end up boning them both.  That's why every time some EQ-esque aspect of WoW gets gutted in favor of streamlined gameplay, there's a collective "Wah" from the people(?) who enjoy that kind of stuff.

To me (in WoW at least, setting aside previous games), the thing that makes BRD awesome is you can sort of see is as the evil counterpart to Ironforge.  It just FELT neat to be in that dungeon.  It was less dungeon and more "place."   When you do a dungeon in WoW now its blatantly obvious that it was designed as a dungeon first, and place second.  Thats great for the kind of game wow has become, but it does mean most of the 5man dungeons at least are never going to feel as epic as a few of the old ones.

[Draegan]

However a 4 hour dungeon is a bit much.  My favorite WOW dungeon is still BRD.

 

Seriously BRD was awesome, but these two sentences in a row are hilarious.

You would pug full clears of brd?

I always would group up for specific parts.

[Ratman_tf]

There's a big difference between difficulty and mind-numbing tedium because of excessive trash.  People wiped in vanilla WoW instances not because they were really difficult, but because they were trying to cut corners to get through the trash faster.  It's a balancing act to please the people who enjoy 'a good dungeon crawl' and people who'd rather just get to the good parts.  That balancing act is sometimes referred to as 'getting the pacing right.'  What it means is:  How much trash should there be?

For some people it's about the journey.  When they get there, they want to feel like they've earned it.  It's cool.  I get it.  But I just don't think you're serving anyone when you're trying to make a game for both types of people.  You end up boning them both.  That's why every time some EQ-esque aspect of WoW gets gutted in favor of streamlined gameplay, there's a collective "Wah" from the people(?) who enjoy that kind of stuff.

To me (in WoW at least, setting aside previous games), the thing that makes BRD awesome is you can sort of see is as the evil counterpart to Ironforge.  It just FELT neat to be in that dungeon.  It was less dungeon and more "place."   When you do a dungeon in WoW now its blatantly obvious that it was designed as a dungeon first, and place second.  Thats great for the kind of game wow has become, but it does mean most of the 5man dungeons at least are never going to feel as epic as a few of the old ones.

We're spoon fed our fun now. There's got to be some middle ground between cockpunch and moron mode.

[DLRiley]

We're spoon fed our fun now.

We've been spooned fed fun since super mario, don't know why this is necessarily a problem.

[Malakili]

However a 4 hour dungeon is a bit much.  My favorite WOW dungeon is still BRD.

 

Seriously BRD was awesome, but these two sentences in a row are hilarious.

You would pug full clears of brd?

I always would group up for specific parts.

Of course I wouldn't but thats kind of the point.

[Surlyboi]

We're spoon fed our fun now.

We've been spooned fed fun since super mario, don't know why this is necessarily a problem.

Because, for a brief, shining moment there, we weren't.

[Kageru]

The heroic instances in WoW which can be quite challenging, with quite high gear requirements and raid-boss style interaction. It's actually eminently possible to wipe on them. Though they tend to be trivialized by guild groups with 25man raid gear but not much can be done about that.

[Rendakor]

The other big change with the WoW heroics is that instead of making them incredibly long, they split most of them into a few wings. The ICC ones for example follow a linear progression that COULD have been one zone. It's just more convenient to break the zone up into smaller chunks. This design started with SM, got really popular in BC and persisted through WotLK.

[Shatter]

My favorite boss in WOW was onyxia because you only had 4 trash mobs :P

[Lakov_Sanite]

Think about it, close your eyes and think(after you read this)

You log into swtor at 7pm after dinner, say hello to your friends/guildies whatever maybe 10min. Check your things, repair what have you and decide to look for a group. Now depending on your class this could take some time but as in most games lets go with a conservative 20min. Alright so you're in a group, now lets assume you can just warp to the dungeon and it doesnt take the group 30min to all get there(it very well could)  Things go well, a wipe once maybe twice and by the time you're done it's between 11:30pm and 12:30pm and you realize you've done one thing all night, that dungeon.

Congratulations, you just did a 5player raid...welcome to catassing.

[eldaec]

I'd be shocked if they aren't aiming for something like 30 minutes for a typical instance.

See also: Guild Wars. City of Heroes. Bioware Edmonton games, etc

[UnSub]

CoH/V's dedicated group content (TFs / SFs) started out at 4 hours long, but more recent additions are in the 1 - 2 hour basket with the shortest typically lasting 30 minutes (the speed Katie, which can be run in under 17 minutes with the right group of players).

Looking at BioWare's other titles, non-story events typically last 15 - 20 minutes from when you start them, while story events / missions last an hour or two (although usually padded with some kind of travel).

[Sky]

We've been spooned fed fun since super mario, don't know why this is necessarily a problem.

Because, for a brief, shining moment there, we weren't.

I'm pretty sure it was the rampant ass rape.

[Bunk]

Looking at BioWare's other titles, non-story events typically last 15 - 20 minutes from when you start them, while story events / missions last an hour or two (although usually padded with some kind of travel).

*cough* Circle Tower/the Fade *cough*

It's scary when it feels neccessary for modders to create mods designed to skip entire sections of a single player rpg.

[Surlyboi]

Meh, I did both in about half an hour.

[Sjofn]

Looking at BioWare's other titles, non-story events typically last 15 - 20 minutes from when you start them, while story events / missions last an hour or two (although usually padded with some kind of travel).

*cough* Circle Tower/the Fade *cough*

It's scary when it feels neccessary for modders to create mods designed to skip entire sections of a single player rpg.

I'm pretty impatient with that sort of thing and I still did it three times before I installed that mod, so how bad could it have really been REALLY. 

I quit playing KotOR 1 during the water planet though.

[eldaec]

The fade might well have felt like about five hours, but it actually took less than one.

[Sjofn]

A better example would probably be the Orzammar section of Dragon Age. That shit takes foreeeeeeeeeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer. The Deep Roads alone feel like a million years, and that's ignoring all the hoops you have to jump through to even get to that point.

[Paelos]

The Deep Roads is without a doubt my least favorite part of the game. The whole Dwarf section just keeps going on and on and on until you want to stab them all in the head for not being able to just GIVE ME MY TROOPS!

First, you have to pick a dude's quest, then you fight five fights in the arenas, then you have to go back, then you have to go into Dust Town, then you have to go into the long Cartel dungeon to fight Jarvia, then you have to go back, then you have to go into the Deep Roads with a drunk, then you have to fight your way across to a doorway, then you have to fight your way through Ortan Thaig, then you have to fight your way across the Dead Trenches, then you have to kill the Broodmother boss, then you have to go to the Anvil section, then you have to fight 4 waves of spawns, then you have to get past the three seperate trap rooms, then you have decide which boss you are going to kill, then you get a crown, then you have to go back and crown somebody, then you have to kill Bhelin.

Exhausting.

[Malakili]

The Deep Roads is without a doubt my least favorite part of the game. The whole Dwarf section just keeps going on and on and on until you want to stab them all in the head for not being able to just GIVE ME MY TROOPS!

This was actually the part of the game that finally did me in.  After about the third person who was like "Sure, I'll help the person so that they'll help the other person, so that the other person will help you" I said, fuck this, quit, and uninstalled.  Its a shame too because it wasn't bad up until that point really.

[Sjofn]

The Deep Roads is without a doubt my least favorite part of the game. The whole Dwarf section just keeps going on and on and on until you want to stab them all in the head for not being able to just GIVE ME MY TROOPS!

First, you have to pick a dude's quest, then you fight five fights in the arenas, then you have to go back, then you have to go into Dust Town, then you have to go into the long Cartel dungeon to fight Jarvia, then you have to go back, then you have to go into the Deep Roads with a drunk, then you have to fight your way across to a doorway, then you have to fight your way through Ortan Thaig, then you have to fight your way across the Dead Trenches, then you have to kill the Broodmother boss, then you have to go to the Anvil section, then you have to fight 4 waves of spawns, then you have to get past the three seperate trap rooms, then you have decide which boss you are going to kill, then you get a crown, then you have to go back and crown somebody, then you have to kill Bhelin.

Exhausting.

Your second and last things only apply to picking Harrowmont! If you pick Bhelen (I am sure I spelled that wrong, every variation I tried looked wrong  ) you have to go into the Deep Roads (whee!) instead of doing the Proving to go tell some guy Harrowmont is a cockmonger, and if you crown Bhelen, Harrowmont just submits like the giant pussy he is.

O M G SPOILERS

[Paelos]

If you pick Bhelen you are a bad person, and I hope your character gets herpes.

[Reg]

Picking Bhelen for king is much better for the casteless if you care about that.

[Lantyssa]

Your choice sucks either way.  And you have to do a lot of leg work for two people you never get much information on and who aren't very enticing with what you do know.  If you're a dwarf, making the choice is even more painful.

[Draegan]

The dwarf part was terrible.  I lost interest at that point and somehow never went back to playing.

[Sjofn]

If you pick Bhelen you are a bad person, and I hope your character gets herpes.

Harrowmont is a weak-ass weakling. Even one of my dwarf nobles, who had EVERY REASON IN THE WORLD to tell Bhelen to go fuck himself, picked Bhelen, because Harrowmont is useless. Reg is right, though, casteless dwarves have a really, really good reason to pick Bhelen.

I'm not sure why you thought that section was worse as a dwarf, Lantyssa, going through as a dwarf was like the only time I completely enjoyed that part. Is it because you can't elect yourself? I think your noble, at least, knows just grabbing the throne like that would end in you getting your ass assassinated in record time.

EDIT: I am glad to see my "Orzammar is a better example of drawn out poop" statement being reinforced though! 

[Paelos]

The key for me was to go into the Dwarf part early, like right after the Mage Tower. That way the mobs didn't pull as much annoying BS due to scaling. I think I went from level 6 to level 13 in that span alone.

[AutomaticZen]

Orzammar was longer and more drawn out, but the Mage Tower had MAGIC USERS BEHIND DOORS!

Shittiest thing ever.  Open door, die, repeat.

[Malakili]

Orzammar was longer and more drawn out, but the Mage Tower had MAGIC USERS BEHIND DOORS!

Shittiest thing ever.  Open door, die, repeat.

Its not so bad when you have 2 mages in your own party 

[Sjofn]

The key for me was to go into the Dwarf part early, like right after the Mage Tower. That way the mobs didn't pull as much annoying BS due to scaling. I think I went from level 6 to level 13 in that span alone.

Yeah I usually do it first or second. Second is probably better, just because of bagspace, although you get a million levels in there if you do it first. Plus Oghren's fade dream is totally sad!

[Lantyssa]

I'm not sure why you thought that section was worse as a dwarf, Lantyssa, going through as a dwarf was like the only time I completely enjoyed that part. Is it because you can't elect yourself? I think your noble, at least, knows just grabbing the throne like that would end in you getting your ass assassinated in record time.

Because Harrowmont was a weakling undeserving of being king (and agreed with exiling me without a trial), and Bhelen I couldn't run through with my sword when he had that altercation right in front of me.  Then I HAD to run errands for one or both.  And I was just way too upset at Bhelen to forgive him.

I did notice with a quick-save that Bhelen reinstates you to the house if you select him, which is kind of an extra kick in the guts.  But nowhere through any of it can you prove your innocence, even if stupid dwarven rules say you can't come back.  It just annoyed me no matter what I chose.

[Merusk]

Agreed there.  I picked Harrow just to fuck the dwarves.  "Fuck you all, boot my ass out, don't let me prove my innocence AND have the gall to want me to make my accuser king?  Burn in hell and die in an early grave like me and my darkspawn curse."