SWTOR

[Kageru]

I wasn't into diku back when the everquest -> wow switch was happening, so someone help me out. Was that sort of thing prevalent - http://www.torhead.com/ability/VIBtDV & http://www.torhead.com/ability/7Y8bP0x. That's basically power word: shiled & pw:s talent 1:1.

Yes. EQ had damage absorption shields, though mitigation would be done via AC buffs.

It was actually quite a clever mechanic for enchanters that had massive aggro problems and would get one-shot if they lost control for even a moment. They wanted it to be a little more forgiving but on the other hand they didn't want them to be capable of tanking. So they got a line of "Rune" spells that gave them a temporary damage shield. I think they also messed with overheal granting a damage shield, but I'm fuzzier on that.

The EQ spell system was actually quite complete but not as integrated in terms of having spell synergies and rotations.

[caladein]

On one hand, Rift showed that that are a few more combinations of "punch" and/or "heal" left out there, but not many.  And I'm not sure having a single-target and an AOE heal version of Earth Shield is really engaging if you're not expected to use them in interesting ways by the encounter designers.

Still, it was able to mix things up a bit, especially in the lower levels where you might go "Oh hey, cleaving Shadow Bolts!  That's kind of cool."

On the other, SWTOR does have interesting (and new, at least to me) mechanics, like heat and variable energy regen and how those interact with healing strategy.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Let's not kid ourselves. Not being able to change the UI in 2011 IS fucking clownshoes.

[Mrbloodworth]

By weekend, do they mean Friday or Saturday?

[luckton]

It's almost certain that a LFG feature will make it's way into the game.  A shame it won't be until after the new year, but mark my words; it will be there.  There are people will leave TOR and march right back to WoW over this tool, because it provides a quick and dirty way to get your dungeon rocks off and enjoy the meat and potatoes of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible without wasting time trying to coordinate various people's schedules and having to travel to the dungeon, etc, etc.

As for custom UIs and addons, while they worked wonders for WoW, I think I've reached the point where I'm just indifferent about them.  If they ever allow for us to reskin the UI, let alone use addons, great.  But even WoW killed off some addons because they actually integrated the feature(s) in to the base UI.  You look at Rift at launch, and you see that much of the UI was already movable and could be customized to a certain extent right out of the box, no addons needed.  Some of these things are in TOR, and if you compared the number of base UI features in TOR vs. vanilla WoW, TOR would actually be an improvement by a modest amount.

[amiable]

Let's not kid ourselves. Not being able to change the UI in 2011 IS fucking clownshoes.

I never understood why this feature is so important to folks.  I find most game UI's fine.  Part of the annoyance I had with wow is that you practically HAD to download addons if you wanted to play competitively in PvE and PvP and those addons tended to really clutter up the screen.  Locked UI's mean everyone plays on a relatively similar playing field.  I can't remember if they have macros for this game, I hope they don't, although it may be an inevitability because of macro-programmable keypads and such.

My thoughts on a game playing healers:  This game is terrific for folks who are interested in playing a support oriented class.  I played a trooper and a healing inquisitor up to the mid 30's and honestly I felt very powerful.  DPs companions put out a good deal of damage and while you won't be clearing quests as fast as DPS specced classes, you will also be able to do things they will never be able to do (like complete all the 4 man quests solo which I pretty much did up to level 30).  You also have a much broader array of companion selection as tanks, dps and healer companions all become useful in different instances.  Resource management is relatively well integrated as well.  I especially like the free low powered channeled heal over time ability that almost every healer class gets, it offers you something to do when you run low on resources.  

The animations for healers are terrific too.  I LOVE the trooper healing animations, and I am sad my F&F guild is going dark side at launch, I hope the bounty hunters animations are just as cool!

[luckton]

By weekend, do they mean Friday or Saturday?

They posted about this yesterday...apparently in order to load-balance the servers, they are letting people in based on the date/time they RSVP'd for this weekends test.  You could get in as early as Friday evening, as late as Saturday afternoon, or somewhere in between.

[Paelos]

I don't even plan on trying to play until Saturday night, so that works for me.

[Bungee]

I don't even plan on trying to play until Saturday night, so that works for me.

I can't even play all weekend... Forgot that this was the insane weekends only beta 

[Tyrnan]

Let's not kid ourselves. Not being able to change the UI in 2011 IS fucking clownshoes.

Are you referring to the inability to move interface elements around or not being able to have full UI mods? The former I agree seems incredibly stupid, and I say this as a person who has most of the UI elements where BW put them anyway (like others chat, map and tertiary hotbars are the problem with their default setup).

UI mods though I could happily live without. Spending ages finding the right mods and getting the UI set up just so only to have a patch fuck half of it up gets old. Also being told you need to download and install a dozen different mods before you're allowed to raid wasn't exactly fun either.

[Mrbloodworth]

By weekend, do they mean Friday or Saturday?

They posted about this yesterday...apparently in order to load-balance the servers, they are letting people in based on the date/time they RSVP'd for this weekends test.  You could get in as early as Friday evening, as late as Saturday afternoon, or somewhere in between.

Cool, the e-mail made no mention of any dates or times.

[kildorn]

I'll be interested to see how Generation WOW handles things like the UI at release. In Rift, the screaming hordes were obnoxious about anything and everything that differed from WoW. It has to have a random cross server dungeon finder. It has to have fully active add ons for DPS and threat meters and semi-automated healing. HAS TO HAS TO.

IIRC, most of the screaming hordes in Rift about dps meters were on the "NEVER IN THIS GAME. WE DRAW THE LINE HERE AND NO FURTHER!" side. Essentially trying to blame addons for the dickish nature of some members in online communities. Those people have never used Xbox Live.

But UI Customization does not really mean mods. It means "can I move my fucking hotbars around". Mods are a reaction to "is your UI feature complete" or "is ____ just a total pain in the ass"

[Wolf]

how exactly do you do the RSVP bit? I poked around on the website but didn't see anything. I also haven't done the questions or whatever, and can't find any place to do it on the site?

I just hope it's playble this weekend, because it seems it's more of an open beta - as in, make an account, you get an invite.

[Thrawn]

Let's not kid ourselves. Not being able to change the UI in 2011 IS fucking clownshoes.

I never understood why this feature is so important to folks.  

For me I prefer to play with 3 monitors with eyefinity, so being able to change the UI layout is VERY important to me.  In most games they support the huge resolution, but then the UI is completely terrible without the ability to modify it.  SWTOR is an example of this when I tried it in beta, I'll just end up playing it on one monitor because of the UI until the ability to modify it is added.

[Mrbloodworth]

Is the client oriented such that I can download it, put it on an external, and copy over the install to another machine, or does the launcher prevent this?

[kildorn]

how exactly do you do the RSVP bit? I poked around on the website but didn't see anything. I also haven't done the questions or whatever, and can't find any place to do it on the site?

I just hope it's playble this weekend, because it seems it's more of an open beta - as in, make an account, you get an invite.

They should have sent you an email link to accept the invite.

[Numtini]

Hasn't almost everything since EQ2 and WoW launched with very limited or no customization on the UI?

[kildorn]

Is the client oriented such that I can download it, put it on an external, and copy over the install to another machine, or does the launcher prevent this?

You can likely do this. It's a standard looking patcher, so it's just looking at what is in the install directory and going "oh hey, that matches my checksums!" or downloading it again.

[Jherad]

So, I'm not going back through the previous 380+ pages again to remind myself what was said about this, but wanted to make a small contribution to the post NDA discussion -

I seem to remember someone somewhere mentioning something about all archetypes being essentially equal tanks at level 10 with points spent in ACs then determining role. This is not even slightly the case. The gap between (for example) a newly AC'd lvl 10ish Knight and a Shadow (with 0 points spent) in tanking and DPS ability is pretty frickin' enormous based on armour and weapons alone. The first flashpoint is pretty forgiving though, so you don't need particular classes.

Before I started beta I also had the (mis)conception that all ACs had two roles (eg damage and tanking for Jedi knights) and you picked one based on how you spent your points. Whilst somewhat true, as a Jedi Knight for example, my experience is that you are a tank. You can either be a really tanky tank, or a somewhat damagy tank, but a tank you remain. You just don't get the abilities and (really importantly) weapons to compete with the real DPS ACs.

YMMV, others may have experienced otherwise.

[luckton]

how exactly do you do the RSVP bit? I poked around on the website but didn't see anything. I also haven't done the questions or whatever, and can't find any place to do it on the site?

I just hope it's playble this weekend, because it seems it's more of an open beta - as in, make an account, you get an invite.

www.swtor.com/tester

Go there, sign in, and see what it says.

Is the client oriented such that I can download it, put it on an external, and copy over the install to another machine, or does the launcher prevent this?

You can copy.  I've done this without issue.

[Wolf]

I think the site is broken right now :/

[sam, an eggplant]

Yes, the vast majority of people bitching about UI mods complain about damagemeters, which basically implies they're bad players you don't want to group with anyway. Aside from my completely correct and justified elitism, they don't understand that any game that writes a combatlog (and SWTOR does) will have damagemeters, even if they're outside the game. These realtime combatlog parsers originated with EQ2 and were popularized with Rift in its pre-UI mod days. Damagemeters are unavoidable. Embrace them.

As for mods in general, remember that SWTOR is a diku MUD and it has no click to heal. No grid/clique or vuhdo. In fact, it has no ability to create mouseover macros; even Rift had that. You need to hit F2 to target the tank then the 1 button to cast a heal, old-school. Healing is fucking painful in SWTOR.

Those are arguments for full UI mods ala WoW, and doesn't even mention that you can't move the windows or bars around. Even everquest one has that now.

[Thrawn]

SWTOR is a diku MUD and it has no click to heal. No grid/clique or vuhdo. In fact, it has no ability to create mouseover macros; even Rift had that.

annnnd just like that I refuse to play a healer in SWTOR.  Thank you for helping me narrow down my class choices.

[sam, an eggplant]

annnnd just like that I refuse to play a healer in SWTOR.  Thank you for helping me narrow down my class choices.

I completely agree. I would rather tongue-kiss my grandfather than heal in SWTOR.

[ghost]

I think the site is broken right now :/

No, it just takes forever to get through.

[luckton]

I think the site is broken right now :/

Yeah, a couple million people trying to bang the site for client downloads, forum bashing and other muck will have that effect  

As for mods in general, remember that SWTOR is a diku MUD and it has no click to heal. No grid/clique or vuhdo. In fact, it has no ability to create mouseover macros; even Rift had that. Healing is fucking painful in SWTOR.

You say painful.  I say "Whack-A-Mole" by having to actually use skill and reflexes instead of relying on add-ons to do it for me.  Healing used to be a badge of honor being able to keep a party alive through the fire and flame while juggling through targets, hotkeys and managing skills.  I'm rather glad they're taking the basic old-school approach from the start.  It will probably change over time...

[sam, an eggplant]

You're saying you enjoy fighting the interface. I'm going to avoid the entire "well it's an opinion, and opinions are subjective" jazz and just come out on the side of you're a fucking lunatic.

And yeah, Bioware will absolutely add click to heal, as well as WoW-style LFD functionality, just like Rift. But that's not good enough; this is 2011, it needs to be in for release. Game systems at bare minimum need to be comparable to WoW. Players know there's a better way.

[Mrbloodworth]

Is the client oriented such that I can download it, put it on an external, and copy over the install to another machine, or does the launcher prevent this?

You can copy.  I've done this without issue.

Great thanks.

[luckton]

You're saying you enjoy fighting the interface. I'm going to avoid the entire "well it's an opinion, and opinions are subjective" jazz and just come out on the side of you're a fucking lunatic.

- I played a Mentalist healer in DAoC for years.  I outhealed and outclassed the 'real' healers on many occasions, in a game that still to this day knows nother of addons, and only after it fell into decline that it decided to broaden it's base by introducing creature comforts like UI skinning and such.
- I played a Defender healer in CoH, another game that has no addons and requires constant vigil over the health bars and active skill duties.
- I played Haflings in my inaugural season of f13 Blood Bowl

So yeah, I am a fucking lunatic.  I assure you though, I am one of many. I'm sorry you require a crutch (or three) in order to be as looney as I.  

[01101010]

By weekend, do they mean Friday or Saturday?

They posted about this yesterday...apparently in order to load-balance the servers, they are letting people in based on the date/time they RSVP'd for this weekends test.  You could get in as early as Friday evening, as late as Saturday afternoon, or somewhere in between.

Cool, the e-mail made no mention of any dates or times.

FYI:

Hello everyone! We are excited to have you joining us for Beta Testing Weekend! We can’t wait to get you all into the test. If you just received your invitation today, you can visit www.swtor.com/tester to download the launcher and begin patching the game.

To simulate a launch environment, testers who have accepted new invites to weekend testing will gain testing access in staggered intervals based on when their invites were accepted. The first group of testers will be able to log on beginning on Friday morning (11/25) at 10:00AM CST (16:00 London, 17:00 Paris/Berlin). Then, Saturday and Sunday at 10:00 AM CST (16:00 London, 17:00 Paris/Berlin) the second and final waves of testers will gain access. Please watch your email for details about when your phase of testing begins. This will come in a separate email from your invite.

To our existing testers: at 10:00AM CST on Friday 11/25, you will notice several new servers appear in server selection for the weekend test to accommodate all our weekend testers. You are welcome to create characters on these new servers, but please note that they will only be available for the duration of the weekend test, which ends on 11/27 at 11:59PM CST (11/28 5:59 London, 6:59 Paris/Berlin).

All testers share forums at this time, so please welcome our weekend testers, who will be active in these forums for the duration of the weekend test!

[caladein]

You're saying you enjoy fighting the interface. I'm going to avoid the entire "well it's an opinion, and opinions are subjective" jazz and just come out on the side of you're a fucking lunatic.

- I played a Mentalist healer in DAoC for years.  I outhealed and outclassed the 'real' healers on many occasions, in a game that still to this day knows nother of addons, and only after it fell into decline that it decided to broaden it's base by introducing creature comforts like UI skinning and such.
- I played a Defender healer in CoH, another game that has no addons and requires constant vigil over the health bars and active skill duties.
- I played Haflings in my inaugural season of f13 Blood Bowl

So yeah, I am a fucking lunatic.  I assure you though, I am one of many. I'm sorry you require a crutch (or three) in order to be as looney as I. 

I really don't understand what you're getting at.  Having a mouseover macro just makes it so I don't have to change my target proper to heal someone.  There's no extra logic that the game handles over having it be "Change target, cast on target, repeat".  I'm tempted to think you're thinking about something else entirely.

(I guess you can argue it's more difficult, but it's not an engaging or interesting kind of difficulty.)

[Mrbloodworth]

stuff

That wasn't in the e-mail!

Sorry, I have not really been following the game very closely. So stuff posted on the main site I miss.

[Wolf]

Great. I'm willing to bet that us in the third world, that don't even get the game at launch, will be stuck in the sunday slot. 

Well, at least it won't ruin my dreamhack.

[01101010]

I really don't understand what you're getting at.  Having a mouseover macro just makes it so I don't have to change my target proper to heal someone.  There's no extra logic that the game handles over having it be "Change target, cast on target, repeat".  I'm tempted to think you're thinking about something else entirely.

(I guess you can argue it's more difficult, but it's not an engaging or interesting kind of difficulty.)

Not having target of target is much more of an issue for me than mouseover anything. I learned a lot playing whm in FFXI to know how to heal like this. Of course, I am going to play a tank though.... 

[VainEldritch]

I think the site is broken right now :/

Yeah, a couple million people trying to bang the site for client downloads, forum bashing and other muck will have that effect  

If it's like this today, then looking ahead to December 20th the BW Community Team must feel like they are on beach watching some gargantuan tidal wave inexorably approaching as they stack pathetic sandbags. It is quite as they work, but high above flocks of seagulls stream inland and underfoot the ground begins to tremble.

I hope someone packed the aqualungs.