Protection Paladins = Mana issues?

[Riggswolfe]

So, I finally saved up 1k gold and bought a dual talent spec. My other spec was as a protection paladin. So, my question is, why do I seem to have major mana issues as a protection pally? Am I doing something wrong? As a ret pally I never, ever seemed to run low on mana.

[Hawkbit]

Prot's spells are mana-heavy. 

Have you ever noticed how protection paladins never, ever stop pulling when they're tanking an instance?  There's a prot talent (Guarded by the Light) that refreshes Divine Plea when you hit an enemy.  So you start your pull with Divine Plea and as long as you're hitting the mob it's permanently refreshing it.  That way you're constantly regenerating significant amounts of mana.

If you know all that already and you're adjusting your play for that info, then I've got no idea what to tell you.

[Rendakor]

Before you get Divine Plea, if you aren't getting heals from someone else you probably want to run Seal of Wisdom. Once you get Divine Plea (71) you'll have infinite mana because you can keep it up all the time.

Other than that, keep BoSanc on yourself and use Holy Shield on CD; blocks are a good source of mana regen.

[Arrrgh]

Just from watching them on my priest it goes away at higher gear scores for whatever reason.  Also I have to switch my priest to holy for under geared paladins, if I go disc and keep them bubbled it screws their mana and slows things down.

[Setanta]

Never... stop... pulling. In a way I equate it to the Warrior/Druid rage system; tanking & taking damage = rage so that you can use abilities to generate threat - as a pally I struggle when I stop getting heals/taking damage so I need to take damage to get the heals. If I start to starve for mana and Plea isn't up I pull another pack to take damage so that I get heals which helps with my mana. I hate being bubbled by priests too and usually ask them not to (in heroics - not raids).

It's also why if a stupid hunter has growl on then I let his pet fry - I want that damage but I'm not wasting mana on a pet - I'll grab it after the pet is dead - sometimes I let the huntard die too because hunters today seem to forget where their FD button is. :)

[Riggswolfe]

Prot's spells are mana-heavy.  

Have you ever noticed how protection paladins never, ever stop pulling when they're tanking an instance?  There's a prot talent (Guarded by the Light) that refreshes Divine Plea when you hit an enemy.  So you start your pull with Divine Plea and as long as you're hitting the mob it's permanently refreshing it.  That way you're constantly regenerating significant amounts of mana.

If you know all that already and you're adjusting your play for that info, then I've got no idea what to tell you.

Ahhh....well I'm only level 65. So that's my problem right there. I need to get up to the level when I get divine plea and I'll be good to go it sounds like!

Edit: So, any tanking tips in general? I find my biggest weakness is when one or more mobs gets away I'm not real quick to notice it sometimes. Usually I just see someone else's healthbar going down...

[apocrypha]

At level 65 all you can really do to decrease your mana usage is consecrate less and use Blessing/Seal/Judgement of Wisdom. You could also take Alchemy for the Endless Mana Potion, I've been using that on my Disc Priest while levelling her from 60-70+. After level 70 the amount of mana it returns is less useful but at 65ish it's awesome.

As for general tanking tips the best one I can give is to learn to relax. In my view your main job is to keep agro off the healer. Generally the DPS need to look out for their own agro. Mark targets, even if it's only binding a key to Skull, and if they ignore that then it's their problem. After a few deaths they either leave (and are replaced instantly) or learn to adjust their DPS to fit the tank's abilities.

Make sure you know the dungeons too. Learn where to pull, which rooms are wipe rooms and how to avoid that, learn which mobs fear, mind control, silence, etc. The Outland instances can be a bit brutal these days since they were designed with CC and careful pulling in mind but most people now have the WOTLK "grab all the mobs and just AOE like crazy" mentality and just assume that tanks have infinite health and healers have infinite mana. Fuck them, let them learn the hard way ;)

I also highly recommend TidyPlates with ThreatPlates addon. Very, very useful mod.

Prot pallies are great tanks but need to be played carefully while dungeon levelling IMO. Once you get to 80 and have a decent 232+ tanking set they become invincible facerollers who can pull every single mob in the entire dungeon at once  

Edit: URLs for the mods. Plus what Merusk said is spot on.

[Merusk]

Best tip I ever got for 5-mans was Zoom out & don't watch yourself, watch your groupmates.  Learn to camera pan during the fight to see that incoming patrol that the mage/ hunter/ priest is standing right in the way of so you can intercept it.

[Rendakor]

If you have problems with adds getting onto DPS or Healers, use Hand of Protection and Hand of Salvation; one stops damage taken, one lowers threat. HoP is particularly useful for overaggroing melee, as you cannot attack while it is up.

Also, make the following macro:

#showtooltip Righteous Defense
/cast [@focus] Righteous Defense

Then, at the start of every instance, focus the healer; you can now use RD to pull any mobs off the healer without losing target, spinning the camera, etc. If you find that it's a DPS over-aggroing instead of the healer, just set them as your new focus.

Another thing that can help is to make sure you have Target of Target displayed (Main Menu > Interface > Combat > it's on the right hand side); that way you can see who the mobs are hitting.

[Ironwood]

Then, at the start of every instance, focus the healer; you can now use RD to pull any mobs off the healer without losing target, spinning the camera, etc. If you find that it's a DPS over-aggroing instead of the healer, just set them as your new focus LET THEM DIE.

Fixed that for you.  Dumbass DPS needs to fucking learn how to play again before the expansion.  Tricks of the trade, Misdirect, CC.  Get your fucking act together DPS.

[Shrike]

A lot of prot tactics depends on knowing the instance. Should go without saying, but it helps set your pace.

Mana isn't really a problem, unless you have to spam consecrate for whatever reason. Then it gets ugly. Divine plea is arguably your key mana recovery tool. I try and not use wisdom, but sometimes it is necessary if you're sucking fumes on mana. Also, if you're an engineer, engie pots can fill your blue bar in one shot.

Paladin tanking is--right now--about as easy as it gets. I enjoy it quite a bit, but the difference between so-so tanks and good tanks is really knowledge of the instance. Your basic 969 thing and knowing how to set up a T9 set should go without saying. Of course, bad paladin tanks fail on both of those issues, and I do have stories...

[Riggswolfe]

A lot of prot tactics depends on knowing the instance. Should go without saying, but it helps set your pace.

Mana isn't really a problem, unless you have to spam consecrate for whatever reason. Then it gets ugly. Divine plea is arguably your key mana recovery tool. I try and not use wisdom, but sometimes it is necessary if you're sucking fumes on mana. Also, if you're an engineer, engie pots can fill your blue bar in one shot.

Paladin tanking is--right now--about as easy as it gets. I enjoy it quite a bit, but the difference between so-so tanks and good tanks is really knowledge of the instance. Your basic 969 thing and knowing how to set up a T9 set should go without saying. Of course, bad paladin tanks fail on both of those issues, and I do have stories...

Ok, so what skills are good ones to have in the rotation? I'm curious about your thoughts. All of you really.

[apocrypha]

Fixed that for you.  Dumbass DPS needs to fucking learn how to play again before the expansion.  Tricks of the trade, Misdirect, CC.  Get your fucking act together DPS.

God, I agree so much. SO MUCH. So many people are going to hit a brick wall when they enter Cata dungeons so fast because they try to faceroll them.

[Rendakor]

MD and Tricks are both getting nerfed for Cata. And do you guys not remember that WotLK heroics used to be hard? I can think of a few bosses that were just a nightmare (King Dred in DTK, Xevozz in VH, etc) and the trash in the last wing of H HoL can still be deadly if the pats are poorly timed. And that's just the originals. I can't imagine Cata heroics being much harder than the ICC 5mans.

[apocrypha]

Here's a detailed explanation of the prot pally 969 rotation.

Basically you have two 6 second abilities (Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous) and three 9 second abilities (Consecrate, Hold Shield and your chosen Judgement) and you alternate them.

I am a really bad pally tank because 99% of my paladins playing time has been as a healer, but just using that rotation even I can tank most heroics easily.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

Xevozz still sucks, especially if the tank doesn't kite him or if the dps are sloooow. And those runeshapers in HoL have that terrible whirlwind that destroys your group REAL QUICK.

[Zetor]

Yep... the spellslingers in h-OK can eff you up as well (I think that shadow blast they do is a % of tank health). When I tank (feral druid), I always pull them with a faerie fire and feral charge the first cast, then bash near the end of the second; however, at that point I'm all out of tricks and barely any DPSers seem to know what an interrupt is nowadays. They are the only thing in the instance I need to blow my survival cooldowns for.  

The spiders in h-COS are also fun, they put a poison on the tank that hits for 15% of max hp every 2 seconds (75% hp total). Most healers can brute-force heal through it (the last few paladins didn't even bother to cleanse, just bombed a few holy lights), but it can be nasty for a less-geared healer.

[Shrike]

The 969 thing is really pretty easy in and of itself (and you do need 1 talent in the cooldown reduction for seals to do this; two isn't necessary, though some go that way). The real trick is knowing when to use them, and that comes back to situational awareness and knowing the fights/instances. Still, it's not rocket surgery.

Generally, if it's an AoE fight, you'll be throwing avenger shield to pull (or a grenade, if you're an engie and it's on cooldown), throw down consecrate (9), hammer of the righteous (6), refresh (or get it the hell up) holy shield (9), then hit your seal of choice (9). Then repeat. 969969969. Boss fights or single targets will generally substitute shield of righteousness for hammer (much more threat). Once you get the hang of the cooldowns, picking abilities becomes second nature.

Interestingly enough, PvP as prot is kinda similar. A lot of people will assume a pally with a shield is holy and attack immediately. It's always amusing to see how long they'll stand there and kill themselves on your shield in your consecrate patch before it sinks in that this pally has an assload of hps and armor, hits like a friggin' truck (but it's only a 1hander...), and, gee, my daggers aren't doing squat...oops, hello GY. Of course casters are a different story, but, eh, that's what glyphed avenger shield and pyro rockets are for.   

[Setanta]

969969969. Boss fights or single targets will generally substitute shield of righteousness for hammer (much more threat).

Interesting, I go slightly differently as 6/9/6/9/6/9 as I usually group pull and just Avenger, HoR (6), HS (9), SoR (6), Consecrate (9), HoR (6), Judge (9), SoR (6) and so on. Maybe I just like the number 69, but it works for me. I keep all my core tanking buttons close together:

HoR to Q and SoR to E (my 6s)
HS to 1, Consecrate to 2 and Judgments to 3 (+ shift-3, alt-3)
Avenger to middle mouse button and Plea to mouse button 5 (MB4 is my auto-run)

As a result, I just have to keep track of which 6 and 9 is coming up next. If it's a single target and omen says my threat is good, I drop consecrate from the equation. On bosses I keep consecrate up because I'm taking damage and getting heals etc to keep my mana up.

Holy Wrath is bound to 4 as I love it for packs of undead despite its mana usage - in places like the tunnel in H-PoS or as a stun in H-HoR it's great and against non-dead it still gives me a tiny bit more threat. I also have stuns bound to shift-4 and alt-4

My "oh shit" shield is bound to 5 and has my trinkets macro'd to pop at the same time to reduce damage for when the healer is asleep.

HoS is bound to G (F is my mount button) and  Righteous Defense to R.

What that gives me is my core tanking skills around my movement keys and F1-F4 to target retards that pull aggro - if I decide to let them live.

Pally tanking is easy/fun... having come from Druid tanking, it makes me cry at how easy Pally's have it in order to keep group threat.

[Riggswolfe]

Well I tanked my first BC instance last night. I made a couple of noob mistakes. I won't lie. Luckily the healer was cool and plays a tank as an alt so he whispered me and gave me some pointers. I picked up about halfway through the instance.

Things I learned:

1) Use consecrate right after the pull. Generally I didn't have to use it again since it built threat slowly right off the bat which was good because consecrate was my biggest mana eater. I also got lucky in that 2 out of the 3 dps targeted what I did.
2) Watch out for patrols before pulling. Duh. Talk about a noobish mistake.
3) That macro to pull things off the healer with righteous defense is awesome.
4) If you don't know the instance well, (my first tanking experience was an instance I'd only been in once) don't be afraid to ask other party members for hints and tips about boss fights and such.

I got extremely lucky and got 2 drops that were good tank plate items. (Both added to stamina 1 added to defense and the other added to dodge or block if memory serves.) I also got very lucky in that the non-tanks were more experienced than I was and willing to forgive my mistakes when I made it clear I was learning and open to advice.

[Rendakor]

Glad to hear you had some luck! Keep at it and you'll be doing fine in no time.

[Dren]

Ok, you guys can admit it.  You are being helpful and nice in this thread because in the back of your mind you are thinking, "He might tank for me sometime.  I better be supportive and give good advice!"

If this would have been a question of "How do I do better DPS on my hunter?" you guys would have become a tank of sharks tasting blood.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing.  More good tanks is what this game (any diku really) sorely needs!

[Selby]

If this would have been a question of "How do I do better DPS on my hunter?" you guys would have become a tank of sharks tasting blood.

Not necessarily.  Most of those types of questions have been hashed to death at places like ElitistJerks and whatnot.  For a DPS class you need to figure out your rotation and abilities and when to use them, then use spreadsheets or something like Rawr to determine your best gear upgrade paths.  DPS is pretty cut and dried for most classes, whereas tanking is a bit more involved than that and yes, more good tanks is never a bad thing ;-)

[Rendakor]

I'm helping because he asked. If someone asked for how to play a DPS class that I had, I'd do my best to help them too. Retarded dps hurts a group almost as much as a retarded tank.

[Selby]

I'm helping because he asked.

As would I.  No one has asked to how to mage DPS though, so there's no reason for me to chime in ;-)  Hunter is the only class I've never played before and that seems to be one of the ones people here ask about, so I really have nothing to contribute to those threads.

[fuser]

Well I tanked my first BC instance last night. I made a couple of noob mistakes. I won't lie. Luckily the healer was cool and plays a tank as an alt so he whispered me and gave me some pointers. I picked up about halfway through the instance.

Things I learned:

1) Use consecrate right after the pull. Generally I didn't have to use it again since it built threat slowly right off the bat which was good because consecrate was my biggest mana eater. I also got lucky in that 2 out of the 3 dps targeted what I did.
2) Watch out for patrols before pulling. Duh. Talk about a noobish mistake.
3) That macro to pull things off the healer with righteous defense is awesome.
4) If you don't know the instance well, (my first tanking experience was an instance I'd only been in once) don't be afraid to ask other party members for hints and tips about boss fights and such.

I got extremely lucky and got 2 drops that were good tank plate items. (Both added to stamina 1 added to defense and the other added to dodge or block if memory serves.) I also got very lucky in that the non-tanks were more experienced than I was and willing to forgive my mistakes when I made it clear I was learning and open to advice.

Don't worry about mana, make sure you have tons of drinks with you or have a friendly mage summon some up. I still have issues with it at 80 when a group is DPS heavy and stuff just dies to quickly you end up burning too much mana on initial aggro that you cannot recoup it over the duration of the fight.

Always get that cons off before you start a 96 rotation! Even when you pull DPS has an uncanny ability to start winding up on non focused targets with high threat at the start of a pull. Combined with the initial hammer of the righteous your on your way to good threat. Hopefully if someone aggros the wrong target the mob passing over the cons AOE might get a tick or two of aggro in before running off to kill a squishy.

Make sure you have Omen installed (forget the other ones name), and tab target every once and a while to check aggro on mobs. I know people generally disagree with the tank changing mob targets but DPS usually cannot follow instructions. If your group is a normal pug generally after the first target everyone is on different targets so checking them all will help you find out who might peel aggro next.

Your avenger shield talent(make sure shield of the templar is maxed) is used 95% of the time pull as it has a silence/slow ability attached. It's great to toss it at one caster and bum rush the other and drop cons and usually ends up with a nice grouped cluster your AOE dps will love you for. Note: the shield will miss when you need it the most and the spell effect with show it sailing off far away from mobs for an extra kick to the groin.

To help out with positioning and seeing if a target has changed focus charge into the pulls, spin around so your facing the group. It will help out greatly if your zoomed out a fair bit to notice a mob turn about and head towards or cast at someone. Of course as you probbly have noticed only charge in where you know a pat wont wander on top of you . It also has the side effect of preventing special talents from hitting the group(like cleave).

One fun thing you should try to pick up is line of sight pulling for fun as you can still use it on the initial ICC trash(silly rogues!). Use your environment such as doors to block casters from seeing you so everyone has to run to you. An example would be right after casting hand of reckoning move out of line of sight (where they can see you) and then dropping a cons before they run around the corner for extra threat. There are quite a few old dungeons you should be running now where you can do this (around your level in shadow labyrinth the room with all the skeletons and casters before the orge, and in slave pens before the shammy boss to clear the lower ramp you can try this out).

Pally tanks are extremely fun and really rewarding at the higher end, nothing like being main tank and slaying DPS classes on overall damaged done. Have fun!

[WoopeeTuralyon]

No tank should slay dps at high gear levels. 

[Lantyssa]

Ok, you guys can admit it.  You are being helpful and nice in this thread because in the back of your mind you are thinking, "He might tank for me sometime.  I better be supportive and give good advice!"

My DK started as a tank.  I was rather appreciative when I got helpful group members.

Other than giving people a bit of a ribbing, and that my play style tends to be super casual unique snowflake, I see no reason to dis on someone trying to learn a class.  (Now the hardcore on the other hand are fair game.  They can take it and dish it back though.)

[Selby]

No tank should slay dps at high gear levels. 

You would be surprised how often my tanks do.  I don't know whether it's laziness or stupidity.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

I'm surprised you got an understanding and helpful group, Riggs. Most people(myself probably included would either sigh, say something about bad tanks, and leave or bitch about bad tanks more loudly and leave. Nice to see helpful players though, and I do give recommendations and such if people say they're new and ask about it. I just hate the ones that don't take advice

How the hell does a geared dps *ever* lose to a tank in damage? I would say both laziness AND stupidity.

[Shrike]

No tank should slay dps at high gear levels. 

You won't in dps, but you very well might in total damage done. My protection pally routinely tops total damage on the recount chart. DPS, not so much, and not very often anymore. It's more of a matter of you being the one that initiates combat and all the AoE and reflective damage. Since you're the tank, mobs beat on you and they take rather substantial damage because of it.

Now if the protection warrior is topping the charts in total damage done, then something might very well be wrong. For a DK or prot pally, though, it's pretty routine. Really switched on dps will blow you away, but they're not the norm in heroics.

I was ribbing my DK friend the other night in UP since a boomkin was smokin' him in dps and my pally was right beind him. He stepped it up and put everyone in their place, but even at the end of the instance, my pally was only about 3% behind him in total damage done, despite about only having 80% of his dps.

[Riggswolfe]

So, do you guys tank with Devotion Aura or Retribution Aura? I've heard it recommended both ways...

[apocrypha]

Depends on the healer and the instance relative to your gear/skill level. If it's going very easily and the healer isn't breaking a sweat keeping everyone at 100% pop Ret. If it's a bit harder going or the healer is having mana issues then Devotion.

Although, thinking about it, 90% of the time I use Devotion just to make life easier for the healer.

[caladein]

If a Resistance aura is at all applicable in the encounter, I'll run that.  Baring that, Devotion.

Retribution's damage is rather pitiful and only helps your threat when you've already got aggro which isn't where your problems usually are.

As for pulling, I'll rarely pull with Avenger's Shield.  It's amazingly useful when something's been pulled off you or as an extra interrupt so using it over Hand of Reckoning is a bit of waste.

[Dren]

I use Avenger's Shield to silence spellcasters.  That way they have to come to me like the melee and I can group them up easier.  I try to target the furthest spellcaster back in a pull and let it bounce around to the others.  At the same time I run into the middle of them and consecrate.  Then the AOE classes burn em down without a worry to grabbing agro.

If the group is purely melee, I just taunt normally.