The Dark Knight

[photek]

Finally saw it tonight. Best movie I've seen in a LONG time. Absolutely amazing from top to bottom. Everyone has summed up the various parts and plot twists, but wanted to point out a couple of things that brought me a lot of enjoyment in my viewing:

The creepy droning violins leading up to the appearance of the Joker in various scenes. Really added atmosphere.

The Joker's facial expressions and reactions when seeing Harvey Dent's face in the hospital.

Completely agree. This really did it for me too. Movie was fantastic, at times I felt spoiled and like I was getting too much of the good stuff when Joker appeared. But I grinned every single scene he was in.

[UnSub]

I don't think he purposely tried to kill Dent with that body tackle.

As Bruce Wayne is a fairly smart guy, I'd imagine he'd realize that knocking someone out of a building several floors up is potentially fatal.

I don't think Dent is dead, simply because Batman doesn't kill. If Gordon can come back from the dead, Two-Face is a dead cert.

It would be sloppy for Batman to have saved the Joker but killed the otherwise (half?) healthy Dent with a fall.

Also, it would be the second time that Two-Face was killed by a fall in a Batman movie (see "Batman Forever").

The alternative to Dent not being dead is that Gordon (now without the help of Batman, and with nobody in the police department he can trust with this kind of secret), is somehow able to get Dent declared dead, but without anybody actually being able to examine the body.  Gordon would then have to put him in Arkham and hope nobody there notices his striking resemblance to the someone who was very much in the public eye and was being declared dead at the same time Two Face was being checked into the asylum.

It would be sloppy storytelling for the purposes of bringing back a character whose story has already been told.  How many more times do you need to see him flip a coin to see if someone lives or dies, because that's about all he'll add to the proceedings at this point?

Gordon managed to 'die' and keep it a secret.

But the issue remains: Batman actively killed Dent. Pushed him off a high surface and let him fall. If he was that way inclined, I'm sure the Joker would have gone the same way.

Batman doesn't kill, even indirectly. That's Batman's one line he doesn't cross.

Anyway, we'll find out in the next film. And Nolan could write an excellent Clock King as a minor villain.

[NiX]

Finally took the time to read this thread the whole way through and wish I could unread the first 4 pages. How the hell you people associate some of the things you do is baffling.

Stray - I think what made Joker so disturbing to me was that they had the character played in such a clever way that you were laughing at things that were truly sick. Obviously not the worst possible things, but most of what he did had the intention of causing the most harm to everyone. Of course I still found him delightfully funny in an intelligent way. I still think him stopping to check the detonator was awesome.

[LK]

How can you NOT laugh or go "OH SHIT" at the Pencil Magic Trick? Best character introduction ever.

[NiX]

Oh, I laughed. It was awesome, but consider seeing something like that in person and having the guy who did it say "TA-DA! It's gone!"

[Velorath]

Gordon managed to 'die' and keep it a secret.

But the issue remains: Batman actively killed Dent. Pushed him off a high surface and let him fall. If he was that way inclined, I'm sure the Joker would have gone the same way.

Batman doesn't kill, even indirectly. That's Batman's one line he doesn't cross.

Anyway, we'll find out in the next film. And Nolan could write an excellent Clock King as a minor villain.

Gordon didn't keep it a secret though.  At least a few people knew, including at least one of the crooked cops (which means the mob and the Joker more likely than not knew Gordon wasn't dead either).  It only helped further the Joker's plan of getting himself caught and thrown in jail.

Also if the Joker was about to shoot Gordon's son, Batman might have reacted the same was as he did with Two Face.   When Batman prevented Joker from falling to his death, the Joker was beaten and nobody was in immediate danger.

[Venkman]

In the comics, Batman builds the Brother Eye satellite system, which gains sentience, turns on him and releases the Omacs to kill all the superheroes. He has to learn to work with his fellow superheroes without so much ultimate control in order to fix the problem of his own creation.

Where can I start reading that series?

[HaemishM]

Start back before Infinite Crisis. I'd say start with Identity Crisis (7-issue miniseries). Wikipedia has a synopsis of the Brother Eye (OMAC) stuff and might have a bibliography in there somewhere.

[Special J]

Didn't want to touch this thread until I saw it.  I was not disappointed.  It knocked my socks off.

I'm not suggesting that Ledger's Joker was anything short of awesome or even that he wasn't the best part of the movie, but it's almost a shame that it overshadows how great Eckhart was as Two-Face.

EDIT: looking back on this thread and some of the arguments just makes me appreciate this movie even more.  Great stuff in this thread.

[UnSub]

How can you NOT laugh or go "OH SHIT" at the Pencil Magic Trick? Best character introduction ever.

You forget the hilarity of the bank robbery. "WHERE'D YOU LEARN TO COUNT!" and "No, I'm going to shoot the bus driver."

[Comstar]

It's a good movie, and hopefully shows how much worse Iron Man was (for everyone singing it's praises, I didn't think Iron Man was that good, but it wasn't outright crap that most other superhero movies are). As others pointed out, it was good because it was a Crime and Thriller movie, not really about Batman himself being Batman.

The Joker's story has been told and I don't want to see him break of Arkam and go through the whole thing again because everyone (Batman, the Commissar, the audience) would know it's all a setup for something. They can get away with it in this movie (the fact that they leave the Joker unchained and with a Detective in the room etc) because it was all very rushed and there wasn't much time for a character (typically a sidekick) to say "hey, the Joker's always been 3 steps ahead of us, why is it so easy now?". Ledger deserves an oscar nomination, though I don't know if he deserves a win.

However, my sense of disbelief failed at the Hospital and complete went out the window and fell 30 stories when NO ONE on board a ship in a city where a terrorist has hidden a mass of bombs (and has already destroyed one building complex) checks the bottom deck (and NOTE: They were trying to evacuate as many people as possible, but we'll leave the entire engineering deck turned off and closed off because it's full of explosive drums). I guess the ship's engineering crew got outsourced to bomb makers. 100's of them.

For that matter, why blame everything on Batman when you can say "The Joker did it" and your friendly corrupt commissioner will supply all the evidence you need, with or without the Joker's protest of innocence. Who's going to believe him when says the Hero DA did it? And the scene with the Mob Boss being dropped the same distance and only getting a sore foot *had* to be for the precise reason to make the point that Two Face would survive the same thing. By the end of the movie the new Commissar and Batman knew the Hero DA was dead to the rest of the world, but it doesn't have to be a physical death.

More nit picking: It would have been straight forward for Batman or his helper to CALL the cops and say "The hostages are the real bag guys, the bad guys are the hostages!". I'm sure he's got the new commissioner's number on speed dial.

Now that the movie has demonstrated why Gothem city needs Batman, I very much hope the NEXT movie is about what happens when the democratic elected Government For the People, With the People and By the People starts doing *everything* Batman does: Illegal wire taps, Torture (I was wondering why Batman hits people to get them to talk when he could just get a wet towel and a cup of water), extra-judicial assaults with deadly weapons, firing large explosive ordnance in small spaces full of civilians and causing collateral damage and killing of suspects because oops dropping someone 4 stories *does* kill them and not just sprain their ankles.

I fear it would just become "Batman vs City Hall and the Mayor is SuperVillan X" but having a superhero try and stop the US government would be an interesting change. Dick Chaney can play himself.

[Venkman]

One thing I forgot to ask previously:

What was with all the dog things? There were three separate times when dogs played a big role: twice attacking Batman and the third time chasing him at the end. And then there was the conversation between Lucius and Wayne about the new batsuit. It stuck out for me because it wasn't a big part of the first movie, but due to the screen time seemed to be done enough here to be making some sort of point/foreshadowing/homage.

I agree too that Eckheart was unfortunately overshadowed. He should have been the next movie. And given the anti-Mob element of this movie, sticking closer to the original origin story might have made a bit more sense (though I liked the homage played to it by the one mobster who pulled the gun on him. I'm sure some in the audience thought it was going to be sulfuric acid ). They could have moved the prosecution to the end, had it feature Meroni, had the acid happen and then left it for the next one.

I don't dislike how things happened here. The Joker didn't cause Two-Face per se, as Dent was already going down that path mentally (as seen when he grabbed that guy for interrogation after things started falling apart). But I think the descent of Dent into and through the "death" of Two-Face was an unfortunate casualty for an otherwise interesting character.

Seeing how different this movie was from the first, I truly have no idea what they would do for the next one. I don't think it can just be more Joker by himself, nor do I think they could throw him away as they did Scarecrow (btw, I think it was Cillian Murphy only for when they pulled the mask off. It didn't even sound close to him when he had the mask on). I would love to see the Batman/Superman crossover (loved that billboard in I am Legend), but I don't think the new versions of either IP has been established enough for that. Bane maybe?

[stray]

Dogs are wild, unpredictable, and aimless. I think the point/reason for their inclusion was made fully when the Joker compared himself to them, when he was being interrogated by Batman. He said he was like a dog chasing a car -- and that dogs didn't have any real goal when they do that...they didn't give a shit about actually reaching the car... they just liked chasing it.

I don't see how this was that different from the first movie. It touched all of the same themes about Fear, the "Heart of Gotham", etc.., just in a more poignant and conclusive way.

[Venkman]

That's a good point. I had forgotten what the Joker had said. Ironically though, all of the dogs were under control by someone, including the three the Joker had. Was that further symbology, the fact that the Joker is controlled chaos (which I believe he is) rather than pure entropy?

I only mentioned the first movie because dogs weren't really present there at all iirc so it seemed pointed here.

[NiX]

You should probably draw your own conclusion from what the meaning of the dogs is. My idea falls somewhat in place with what Stray said in that unlike humans, the dogs are chaotic and unpredictable, much like the Joker was and he was forced to adapt to that.

[stray]

I only mentioned the first movie because dogs weren't really present there at all iirc so it seemed pointed here.

Oh... Well, I think they were in this movie mainly to illustrate the Joker's schtick (hence, why they're not in the first movie). Even when some dog scenes had nothing to do with Joker, the subtext was there.

As for them being controlled, I think you could be taking the symbolism too far. Or maybe not. Who knows. He's chaotic enough to burn a 20 foot stack of cash, and state that all he needs in the world is dynamite, gunpowder, and gasoline. Those are about the only things he cares to control it seems.

[Venkman]

Question on that, more lore than anything else: the Joker pulls off some pretty elaborate stuff. Is he able to do that without money because he's taking over others carefully crafted operations? I mean, where'd he get all the barrells of gasoline he had in both warehouses and the two ferries? Or the detonators? Or the thugs? Sure he inherited the latter but they still want their payola. If he really isn't about the money, eventually all the stuff he steals and all the people he uses to do so will dry up. How's that work in the comics?

[stray]

He recruits naive schizos from Arkham. Or people too self-absorbed with their own goals to even pay attention to what he's doing.

Also, continuity isn't all that important in Batman comics. It's just a bunch of variations on the myth. Hell, continuity isn't that important in most superhero comics, for that matter (although I'll say that it seems like Marvel attempts it more often..with disastrous results). Besides that, most of the best Batman stories, like the ones these films draw upon, are self contained graphic novel deals.

[Rasix]

Is he able to do that without money because he's taking over others carefully crafted operations? I mean, where'd he get all the barrells of gasoline he had in both warehouses and the two ferries? Or the detonators? Or the thugs?

The movie was long enough.  Do you want an extra hour of his trip to Home Depot, arts and crafts time, and the Gotham City career fair?

[NiX]

C'mon Rasix, you have to admit seeing The Joker do all of those things would probably be full of win.

[Venkman]

Is he able to do that without money because he's taking over others carefully crafted operations? I mean, where'd he get all the barrells of gasoline he had in both warehouses and the two ferries? Or the detonators? Or the thugs?

The movie was long enough.  Do you want an extra hour of his trip to Home Depot, arts and crafts time, and the Gotham City career fair?

See earlier post: I wanted two movies, split so that Two-Face had more time.

[stray]

This is probably going to be longer than it should, but I'll try to break it down for a sec (as I see it): Harvey Dent belonged in nothing but this movie imo. He's the "third" side of the coin, if you will.. the middle. None of the points Nolan tried to make in this movie would have worked as well, without him as a plot piece.

Sure, it could have been a tragic story if just Rachel's fate was portrayed -- but a simple damsel in distress tale is helluva a lot more clichéd. It wouldn't have been equally tragic without Harvey's aftermath. There also could have been only general references to Gotham's "heart and soul" (as opposed to encapsulating it in one character like Harvey Dent), but that would have been conventional good guys vs bad guys shit. Instead, they took it a downright Shakespearean level.

Or you could say that it could have had all of those things still, Harvey included, but with the movie cutting off with Harvey pissed on the hospital -- leaving room for a sequel. In which case, I'd still say it'd be wrong. What exactly would he do in that sequel? More importantly, what new things would he do? What story is worth being told for two hours about that?

The idea of Two Face as a proper "villain" just flat out sucks. The typical portrayal of Two-Face is actually one-sided -- with Harvey almost completely lost. Usually, he's just another maniacal fuckhead foiling everyone's plans, and his "good" Harvey side is just an excuse to make him seem crazy by talking to himself. Nothing more. In the end, Harvey doesn't matter and Two-Face always defers back to being a "villain". He's One-Face. And he sucks just like other Batman villains suck. Fuck all of these guys. They're not interesting "mythical archetypes" in their own right. Most of them just do the same shit as the Joker, but in lamer ways. They never truly bring anything new to the table, as main villains. There's more to tap into them when used as smaller plot pieces (like Harvey, or how Scarecrow was portrayed, in relation to Ra's al Ghul).

That's why I said earlier that I never did truly appreciate the character until I saw him this way -- I finally got to appreciate "Harvey Dent". Harvey Dent not as a villain, but just a man. His rampage is realistic and human and personal. Instead of producing meaningless panic in the streets for an entire movie, he's just a guy on his last limb and out for revenge. A final act from a man who lost his will, his faith in the world, and his love. He's not a criminal per se -- he's just postal. Two hours of him prancing around, killing people, and robbing banks (or whatever), playing the part of yet another freak, just negates the real tragedy in the character.

It's also pointless to see that kind of criminal again anyways (so fuck the Riddler and the Penguin too, for that matter), because the Joker does it best. You can't top him, or repeat it again with a different guy. Maybe if Heath was still alive, I could see the point in another sequel, with other characters' stories getting a little more extended in the thick of it -- but that isn't going to happen.

[LK]

Question on that, more lore than anything else: the Joker pulls off some pretty elaborate stuff. Is he able to do that without money because he's taking over others carefully crafted operations? I mean, where'd he get all the barrells of gasoline he had in both warehouses and the two ferries? Or the detonators? Or the thugs? Sure he inherited the latter but they still want their payola. If he really isn't about the money, eventually all the stuff he steals and all the people he uses to do so will dry up. How's that work in the comics?

Keep in mind that he robbed a bank for $65 million dollars in the opening segment.

[Hawkbit]

I was disappointed that TwoFace wasn't going to make it into a third... I really expected that he would be the next movie.  But Stray's points above makes a lot of sense.  I also wish the "Penguin as a British arms dealer" idea would have surfaced, but again, how to make that interesting enough for 2.5 hours?

I also wish they would have used the comic version of the Joker's creation... I fully expected it and was really let down that they didn't portray it in the film.  It was a major bummer to see his makeup wearing off when in the police station.  I did, however, fully enjoy the line "I'm like a dog, chasing cars.  I wouldn't know what to do with it when I got to it. I just, do things."  It was one of my favorite parts of the film. 

As far as the next film, it wouldn't surprise me if they only brought one villain in simply because much of the next film is going to be Batman on the run.  I think a high-tech villain would fit in really well, using some crazy new heavy technology or something. 

[UnSub]

You should probably draw your own conclusion from what the meaning of the dogs is. My idea falls somewhat in place with what Stray said in that unlike humans, the dogs are chaotic and unpredictable, much like the Joker was and he was forced to adapt to that.

To get all film school about it, the dogs represent society to some extent - trained and civilised on the surface, but you don't have to dig deep to unleash vicious animalistic reactions. See the Joker's comment that a loyal dog will still eat its master if he's cut up enough. That Batman kept getting attacked by dogs is representative of his greater struggle with society.

Or: Dogs are Batman's kryptonite.

[Fordel]

I want to see Mr. Freeze 'done right'. Batman:TAS had a great version of Mr. Freeze, one you could genuinely feel sympathy for. Set the entire movie in winter and work from there.

[Lakov_Sanite]

You should probably draw your own conclusion from what the meaning of the dogs is. My idea falls somewhat in place with what Stray said in that unlike humans, the dogs are chaotic and unpredictable, much like the Joker was and he was forced to adapt to that.

To get all film school about it, the dogs represent society to some extent - trained and civilised on the surface, but you don't have to dig deep to unleash vicious animalistic reactions. See the Joker's comment that a loyal dog will still eat its master if he's cut up enough. That Batman kept getting attacked by dogs is representative of his greater struggle with society.

Or: Dogs are Batman's kryptonite.

So superman will fight batman by getting a gun that shoots dogs?

[tazelbain]

I want to see Mr. Freeze 'done right'. Batman:TAS had a great version of Mr. Freeze, one you could genuinely feel sympathy for. Set the entire movie in winter and work from there.

Indeed.
I am also a fan of Ace.  Wouldn't need the JL and Joker could stay in the background.  Nothing says "dark" like termally ill, superpowered, tortured child soldiers.

[Riggswolfe]

I have been thinking about the next movie like a lot of you. Nolan has grounded Batman in reality, as much as a superhero can be anyway and I'm having trouble finding a Batman villain that won't camp things up. It could be interesting to see Bane done right, he could even name it Knightfall like that one story arc.

I would like to see Nolan and Bale turn the next movie into a conclusion of their Batman story arc. I doubt if WB or DC would let them, but it'd be nice to see them finish this arc of Batman's life in some way. Maybe Batman gets Gotham City to where it doesn't need him and he hangs up his cape with a promise to put it back on the next time Gotham needs a hero. How he gets there I have no idea.

Maybe they could bring in Talia al Ghul and have her out for revenge for Ra's death in the first movie and introduce a love/hate relationship. Have the league of assassins out to get Batman while the police are also after him.

[UnSub]

You should probably draw your own conclusion from what the meaning of the dogs is. My idea falls somewhat in place with what Stray said in that unlike humans, the dogs are chaotic and unpredictable, much like the Joker was and he was forced to adapt to that.

To get all film school about it, the dogs represent society to some extent - trained and civilised on the surface, but you don't have to dig deep to unleash vicious animalistic reactions. See the Joker's comment that a loyal dog will still eat its master if he's cut up enough. That Batman kept getting attacked by dogs is representative of his greater struggle with society.

Or: Dogs are Batman's kryptonite.

So superman will fight batman by getting a gun that shoots dogs?

AND IT WILL BE AWESOME

[Abagadro]

So superman will fight batman by getting a gun that shoots dogs?

I will actually shoot dogs who will then shoot bees from their mouths.

[eldaec]

Saw this tonight, and the ending... hmmm... the concept of Batman taking the fall for Harvey is fine and makes sense in the context of the complete film, but my problem with the implementation is that Two Face didn't do anything evil enough to be noticed over all the noise the Joker was making. Everything he did could be ignored as a random mob killing except for the final kidnapping, which Gordon could have just not mentioned ever again. The whole thing seemed like some unnecessary emo gesture, and the idea that Gotham turning on Batman was healthy for the city wasn't enough to sustain it; in fact, it felt a little like Nolan was relying on the audience already knowing that Two Face is a Batman villian to sell the fact that he'd become evil. Two Face needed a better final act for this to be as awesome as it possibly could be.

And two-face is dead, don't be daft. I don't really see how two-face can work in this Batman continuity anyhow, which is a shame, because making this film a two hour story of two-face's origin hidden in a Joker main feature would have been just about the most awesome thing ever.

Anyway, I'm complaining too much. This was the best thing I've seen in ages, my reservations are just that it runs at 107% awesome until Rachel is killed, then then drops to merely 98% splenda. It was great to watch a comic book movie that sticks to whatever it wants to be about even through the last 30 minutes of explosions and name taking. Also, I'm going to sound way too beret brigade when I say this, but Gary Oldman should get an oscar nomination, not Heath Ledger. Oldman steals every scene he's in, even when his script goes downhill after he becomes resurrected-super-cop. Ledger is great, but the script does most of the heavy lifting imo.

Is [Joker] able to do that without money

meh. He's been robbing banks since the epilogue of the last film.

[stray]

I don't think the point was how much Harvey went evil ... Just that he did. He was the White Knight, and he fell from grace. It was bad news, and if gotten out, would have completely destroyed Gotham's morale. Or something.

[eldaec]

I don't think the point was how much Harvey went evil ... Just that he did. He was the White Knight, and he fell from grace. It was bad news, and if gotten out, would have completely destroyed Gotham's morale. Or something.

I get that, I just feel it got drowned out. If the whole city hadn't been in chaos, maybe it wouldn't have seemed daft to worry about a couple of dead mob guys.

[NowhereMan]

Yeah but a corrupt cop and a mob boss could be explained away as just part of Joker's general rampaging. That way doesn't involve the whole city thinking Batman's turned psycho. It could be easily exploded by the cop who lived squealing or some random witness but that's no less likely if they blame it on Batman. I think it's obviously the direction Nolan wanted to go with this (I predict the third film is going to see an outlaw Batman fighting against a corrupt city government, possibly having its strings pulled by Riddler or some other dark figure).