Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Ratman_tf]

Oh Lordy, I'm just psychologically drained.  Ultramarines going on quests?     I tell ya what, these quests better involve mowing through endless spawns of Genestealers done in a significantly darkly manner.  And said Genestealers better rape face and not be closet bunnies.

The Salamanders chapter nominate one of their marines to be a Forgefather, who goes on a quest to retrieve the lost artifacts of the chapter.

Now we have our precident to go collect 10 grot eyes! 

[Arthur_Parker]

Found a release schedule, which if accurate, puts Dark Millennium down for a mid 2012 release.

I don't think that is what that graph actually shows.  I'm pretty sure that should be read as DMO has enough work left to make a release far enough out that we can't set a reliable date at the moment but definitely after mid-2012.

New interview, only real piece of new info is about the release.

E3 2010: Interview with Warhammer 40K's Mark Downie

So what about a time frame for release?

Mark: I should qualify this by saying our primary goal is getting the game right. THQ fully supports us in this regard, and isn't breathing down our necks saying, "You must ship by a certain date!" They are nurturing this project and we are true to this project so that when we deliver it, it will be everything we want it to be and the community wants it to be.

With that in mind, we're shooting for right now to have the game shipped by the end of Quarter 1 of 2013.

[eldaec]

I assume he's talking about the amount of effort required to have unique progression content for 3 factions. He's probably right when we've had a game that on launch couldn't even include content for two factions (STO) and many others that have fairly sparse content even for a single faction.

I didn't see any sign of Eldar in the video, are they in? I could easily imagine them being reserved as an expansion race. The Imperium versus chaos is just so much more obvious as the base story for a PvP game. Though the Eldar backstory would serve quite well as third faction.

They said 4 races. I'd be amazed if it isn't space-human space-elf space-orc and space-chaos.

With human/eldar and chaos/ork as BFFs for no reason at all.

 What do you mean by progression content? I can't see any good reason that all content can't be copied into all the realms. That is, if you really must have a pointless generic EQ levelling game in there at all.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm with eldaec on this one, instancing the PVE content from the world would allow easy reuse for other factions, it also removes pointless grey mobs.

Remember this?


Playable tanks are apparently in for release, but just assume for a moment that the rest is mostly correct.  29 zones, 29, WAR has 39, such a waste.

There's the problem of what to replace the PVE content with, but if you accept that travel is just a pointless time sink (after the first journey to any location) and that the mobs you encounter will also be annoying/pointless after you out-level them.  Then why not try something different, if content in low level zones is not directly linked to character level via mob levels, then maybe zones can stay useful long term.

[amiable]

  29 zones, 29, WAR has 39, such a waste.

Fewer zones is not necessarily a bad thing.  One of the more annoying aspects of war was that there were too many zones and it was difficult to obtain a critical mass for world PvP.  i would prefer fewer well designed zones than more craptastic ones.

Having said that I am not cautiously optimistic, I am expecting utter crap.

[Arthur_Parker]

I phrased that badly, I wasn't saying 29 zones is bad as a number.  Taking the 39 of WAR, 18 of them are T1 - T3, I think part of the reason Mythic resisted reducing the grind in WAR in the early weeks was that so much of their content was in those 18 zones.  

As Dark Millennium will likely be built along "standard" mmorpg, two faction lines, it's very possible that almost 50% of the zones there will also be completely pointless after your first month of play, that's the waste I was talking about.

[jakonovski]

If only someone could come up with PvE content that is not tied to a zone. For a WH40k MMO, a huge war going back and forth would work, but then again I'd like a pony too.

[Arthur_Parker]

In a game with space ships and warp storms, they could tie space ports to zones, tie space ports to openings in the local warp storm and tie the openings in the warp to instanced pve & rvr on remote planets.  Instancing on the remote planet allows you to set the resulting instance to certain level/character progression ranges.  Make mine a chesnut pony.

[kildorn]

Tanks had better be playable, or IG should just be an NPC faction <3

That or pull from Allods and do that whole "your character is actually like, 5 dudes" thing.

[Ghambit]

Analogous to BattleTech+CityTech+BattleSpace MMO (i.e. complete 40k experience), complete with APB-like "minis painting" customization == push-me-pull-you pony evidently.  Even though one would think it'd be the easier game to develop.  There is no stupid questline, scripting, junk mobs, etc...  only death.

[Ashamanchill]

This entire thread sounds like it's in another language to me lol.

[NowhereMan]

Man, why make a 40K MMO that's not PvP? If you want quests and storyline make a fucking single player RPG based off Inquisitor that involves you gathering a party and actually doing an interesting storyline with room for being a ruthless, bloodthirsty zealot or a more open-minded strategic type. Throw in a little reference to factions in the Inquisition that can help or hinder depending on your play style and you'd be on your way to an awesome game. Plus the grounds pretty much open for an expansion/DLC that lets you play as a Space Marine instead that just sees you kicking in doors and shooting people that get in your way/forget to say their prayers. If you're going to make me play with other people let me kill them and don't just throw in a load of grindy quests that force me to side with some filthy Xenos in order to kill 10 undercity mutants for the local hygiene officer.

[HaemishM]

Man, why make a 40K MMO that's not PvP?

Recurring subscription revenue and licensing fees? 

[DLRiley]

design a true PvP masterpiece

Don't ever change. 

I knew that would raise someone's response.   

Seriously though, I'm getting quite sick of these studios turning WARhammer into Questhammer.  It's the most successful tabletop wargaming IP ever developed (even though I hated it mostly, cept 40k), and yet for some reason they cant figure out how to turn it into a proper MMO.  This design looks to be yet another overdeveloped POS, taking more from WFRP (warhammer fantasy roleplay) than anything else.  Yet no one even plays that shit... which is btw an equally overdeveloped system.

Oh Lordy, I'm just psychologically drained.  Ultramarines going on quests?     I tell ya what, these quests better involve mowing through endless spawns of Genestealers done in a significantly darkly manner.  And said Genestealers better rape face and not be closet bunnies.

But still, ca]"?
t a Man just get his Horus Heresy Online wherein you mow through endless hordes in a galactic civil war and/or godly dominion over all?  Then repeat?  It'd be like multiple orgasm, really.  Does no one else see this?  (no one else == people with enough money to dev. an MMO)  Such a simple concept turned to dust. 

You hit the issue without hitting the issue. The problem is not that they aren't making a proper mmo, the problem IS that they are making a proper mmo. I would happily play a game set in the 40k universe that borrows from tf2 and cod, you couldn't make me play the beta of anything everquest and daoc inspired.

[Ashamanchill]

Why do you even post in the MMO section of this board if that's your opinion?

[DLRiley]

Why do you even post in the MMO section of this board if that's your opinion?

because guild wars 2 is coming out. also i am of the opinion that the mmo industry could be better if it shed most of its bullshit, but since it won't anytime this decade....

[kildorn]

But you seem to want it to shed the RPG part of MMORPG, and just do MMOFPS.

While I think 40k needs a radical departure from basic DIKU, I don't think MMOFPS will do it justice either (legitimately, almost every weapon should be insta-kill in 40k. I mean a bolter is pretty much hitting you in the face with a missile, and no badass in the IP wears a freaking helmet)

I actually liked pre pants-leveling DAOC, though. It had issues (casters were overpowered and balanced by the worst interrupt mechanic EVER DESIGNED), but at it's core it was fun.

[DLRiley]

But you seem to want it to shed the RPG part of MMORPG, and just do MMOFPS.

While I think 40k needs a radical departure from basic DIKU, I don't think MMOFPS will do it justice either (legitimately, almost every weapon should be insta-kill in 40k. I mean a bolter is pretty much hitting you in the face with a missile, and no badass in the IP wears a freaking helmet)

I actually liked pre pants-leveling DAOC, though. It had issues (casters were overpowered and balanced by the worst interrupt mechanic EVER DESIGNED), but at it's core it was fun.

Well they are planning on doing both poorly so if I were to make them chose, mmofps all the way with a big emphasis on fps. I mean honestly if they had the balls to insta-gib infantry than I would play, its not like the universe doesn't support  tanks and other armored vehicles so why not? I rather not "live the life of a space marine" i mean err what is that suppose to mean besides utter bullshit that makes for shitty roleplaying anyway. Ok maybe my understanding of rpg, ff6 and golden sun, creates a bias toward other understanding of the word rpg, but for fucks sake its 40k, why shouldn't there be none stop explosions and blood splatter for the sake of explosions and blood splatter?

[Arthur_Parker]

Why do you even post in the MMO section of this board if that's your opinion?

I did nothing but roleplay in COD2 online, the role I was playing just happened to involve killing people.  It's bad enough that these games are all turning into clones of EQ+, there's no need to redefine "roleplaying" as well.

[Murgos]

I rather not "live the life of a space marine" i mean err what is that suppose to mean besides utter bullshit that makes for shitty roleplaying anyway.

Considering that Space Marines are basically religious warrior monks accurately role playing their religious zealotry and extreme xenophobia would probably get your account banned or be amazingly boring as you contemplated the scriptures and histories for days on end between combat deployments.

[Ingmar]

Why do you even post in the MMO section of this board if that's your opinion?

I did nothing but roleplay in COD2 online, the role I was playing just happened to involve killing people.  It's bad enough that these games are all turning into clones of EQ+, there's no need to redefine "roleplaying" as well.

RPG and "roleplaying" aren't the same term, and the discussion in this thread seems to me to be talking about the former, not the latter. Roleplaying can happen in all kinds of contexts, but stringing R P and G together in a computer gaming context comes with a lot more tropes and assumptions than just 'playing in character'.

[eldaec]

If only someone could come up with PvE content that is not tied to a zone. For a WH40k MMO, a huge war going back and forth would work, but then again I'd like a pony too.

Firstly, what do you mean 'if', how is it in any way difficult to give access to encounters by some means other than fixed geography?

Second, the description of the zones as variously claimable or invadable might at least mean they are trying for flexible rolling battlefronts rather than predefined home regions. I'm not holding my breath mind you. Not least as it makes much less sense with only 2 realms.

[Ghambit]

I rather not "live the life of a space marine" i mean err what is that suppose to mean besides utter bullshit that makes for shitty roleplaying anyway.

Considering that Space Marines are basically religious warrior monks accurately role playing their religious zealotry and extreme xenophobia would probably get your account banned or be amazingly boring as you contemplated the scriptures and histories for days on end between combat deployments.

Also consider that said Space Marines dont actually have any free will yes?  They're psychically controlled by the Emperor.  Who in tabletop terms is the player.

Back to the ol' RPG debate.  Just because something's RPG, doesnt mean it has to be DIKU or some D&D derivative.  All it means is playing a role, which usually requires character depth and persistence.  Most FPS's dont offer this simply because they're designed to be level playing fields where every player is the same, and once the match is over - it's a clean wipe.  A Warhammer game can easily offer this depth and persistence (fuckin loads of it actually), without having to use the D20 model of gameplay.

[Arthur_Parker]

RPG and "roleplaying" aren't the same term, and the discussion in this thread seems to me to be talking about the former, not the latter. Roleplaying can happen in all kinds of contexts, but stringing R P and G together in a computer gaming context comes with a lot more tropes and assumptions than just 'playing in character'.

Ashamanchill first of all says he doesn't understand the conversation, nothing wrong with that.  Then he tells someone else he's not describing a proper mmo and asks why is he in this forum.  You are now trying to explain the different between roleplaying in a game and a RPG to me.

Let me ask you a question, levels in a 40k mmo/mmorpg, bad idea or good idea?

[IainC]

Also consider that said Space Marines dont actually have any free will yes?  They're psychically controlled by the Emperor.

No they aren't. They are super-idealistic warrior monks who undergo extreme psychological conditioning from a very young age.

[kildorn]

I rather not "live the life of a space marine" i mean err what is that suppose to mean besides utter bullshit that makes for shitty roleplaying anyway.

Considering that Space Marines are basically religious warrior monks accurately role playing their religious zealotry and extreme xenophobia would probably get your account banned or be amazingly boring as you contemplated the scriptures and histories for days on end between combat deployments.

Also consider that said Space Marines dont actually have any free will yes?  They're psychically controlled by the Emperor.  Who in tabletop terms is the player.

Back to the ol' RPG debate.  Just because something's RPG, doesnt mean it has to be DIKU or some D&D derivative.  All it means is playing a role, which usually requires character depth and persistence.  Most FPS's dont offer this simply because they're designed to be level playing fields where every player is the same, and once the match is over - it's a clean wipe.  A Warhammer game can easily offer this depth and persistence (fuckin loads of it actually), without having to use the D20 model of gameplay.

So what you're saying is BF:BC2 is a classic RPG.

I'm going to have to differ there and say that RPG as a genre has specific meanings. While it can be crossed with another genre, RPG by itself pretty much means stats determine things, and there's a lot of number crunching under the hood. Less twitch, more here is a list of your abilities and your character build.

As for levels in a 40k MMO, they're actually kinda understandable. Just not in the level 1 through 80 sense. But there is a distinct in the lore, fluff, and table rules a massive difference bestowed by veteran status. Hell, GW's small skirmish rules all have experience systems built into them to denote this as your merry band progresses.

Just as Roleplaying doesn't mean "Playing D&D", leveling does not mean "OH GOD FUCKING DIKU GOD DAMN THIS HAS NO PLACE IN ANYTHING"

Leveling makes perfect freaking sense in 40k. What doesn't make sense is any of the sides teaming up for more than a quick fight.

[Ghambit]

I never said "classic" RPG.  I just said RPG.  If you want to go THERE, I can point you to a million neauveau RPGs that are absolutely nothing like what most people think an RPG is.
Also, BF2142 and the like arent RPGs to me even though they offer persistence character-wise, you've got no persistence to the gamespace and no real control over said character aside from gear progression.

Also, you can "RPG" most ANY wargame with the right ruleset.  Like BattleTech or even Warmachine.  Hell, these days most popular P&P RPGs are quasi-wargame anyways (cough 4th ed.).  So yah, there's nothing inherently non-RPG about 40k.  It's just most of dorkdom would prefer an MMO Wargame rather than an MMO version of WFRP (which is what this game is lookin like).   The latter is also much more intimate and less epic in scale obviously.

Also consider that said Space Marines dont actually have any free will yes?  They're psychically controlled by the Emperor.

No they aren't. They are super-idealistic warrior monks who undergo extreme psychological conditioning from a very young age.

The Emperor exists only as a psychic entity, exerting his will across the Empire... this includes communication and orders with lesser Lords, who then they themselves psychically command  their forces (if they've got the ability, which since info. travels faster telepathically, is pretty much a requirement).  Ultramarines included.  Of course, the whole religious zealot thing makes them even more succeptible to a lack of free will to begin with...  if the Emperor psychically empowers an ultramarine squad (who look upon him as a God), you can pretty much guarantee they're gonna do what he says assuming he doesnt just take over their minds.

Speaking of which, I had this whole demented view of some grand command structure for a Warhammer MMO ala PS or WW2O,  wherein you'd start getting into all this Psyker stuff and spend less time in the field and more time fucking with the warzones and issuing commands psychically.  Woulda been cool in an open-strat. PvP game.  In a WAR/WoW clone it's not necessary... so you basically lose that entire element of the IP to some questgiving NPC.

[Ingmar]

RPG and "roleplaying" aren't the same term, and the discussion in this thread seems to me to be talking about the former, not the latter. Roleplaying can happen in all kinds of contexts, but stringing R P and G together in a computer gaming context comes with a lot more tropes and assumptions than just 'playing in character'.

Ashamanchill first of all says he doesn't understand the conversation, nothing wrong with that.  Then he tells someone else he's not describing a proper mmo and asks why is he in this forum.  You are now trying to explain the different between roleplaying in a game and a RPG to me.

Let me ask you a question, levels in a 40k mmo/mmorpg, bad idea or good idea?

Levels probably wouldn't be the direction I'd go with it, but for it to be an RPG it does need to have some kind of character-based advancement, yes. Levels, skills, the WFRP spend-xp-on-one-thing-at-a-time system, whatever. They're setting out to make an RPG set in 40k's setting. I'm not sure why that bothers people greatly, if they execute well I'm sure it will be fun, if they don't it will be WAR part 2. 40k isn't just a tabletop wargame setting, after all: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=50

I doubt this completely rules out the possibility of a shooter for the people for whom that is more to their taste, given that GW seems to be pushing their way slowly into the modern world license-wise. There's plenty of space left to wring cash out of the license in various video games and at this point I'm sure they realize it.

[DLRiley]

 40k rpg != 40k mmo.

[Cadaverine]

While it's been many moons since I played 40k, I thought they had "levels" of a sort.  I don't recall if you just paid more points to make a squad vets, for an increase in WS/BS/hits/whatever, or if they would gain some for of XP over time, and become Vet units, albeit at a higher pt value.

Even if they didn't, it wouldn't be hard to implement something similar.  Various objectives give you victory points, which can be used to unlock/buy upgraded weapons, purity seals, terminator armor, whatever.  Similar deal for other races.

That'd be too easy, and make too much sense, so they'll probably make "classes", and so Space Marine becomes a "race", and you can be a grunt, and then spec into tactical, or assault marine. The Adeptus Mechanicus is for crafters, or whatever.

[IainC]

The Emperor exists only as a psychic entity, exerting his will across the Empire... this includes communication and orders with lesser Lords, who then they themselves psychically command  their forces (if they've got the ability, which since info. travels faster telepathically, is pretty much a requirement).  Ultramarines included.  Of course, the whole religious zealot thing makes them even more succeptible to a lack of free will to begin with...  if the Emperor psychically empowers an ultramarine squad (who look upon him as a God), you can pretty much guarantee they're gonna do what he says assuming he doesnt just take over their minds.

That's really not what the Emperor does or how the Imperium works. We can get into this in another thread if you like but you are pretty much wrong on all counts here.

[kildorn]

While it's been many moons since I played 40k, I thought they had "levels" of a sort.  I don't recall if you just paid more points to make a squad vets, for an increase in WS/BS/hits/whatever, or if they would gain some for of XP over time, and become Vet units, albeit at a higher pt value.

Even if they didn't, it wouldn't be hard to implement something similar.  Various objectives give you victory points, which can be used to unlock/buy upgraded weapons, purity seals, terminator armor, whatever.  Similar deal for other races.

That'd be too easy, and make too much sense, so they'll probably make "classes", and so Space Marine becomes a "race", and you can be a grunt, and then spec into tactical, or assault marine. The Adeptus Mechanicus is for crafters, or whatever.

They have levels in the sense that you buy (in the newer books) things like vets or command entities.

As for classes, you should probably have at most two space marine classes (marine and medic), but otherwise the space marines as a singular class/race choice make for perfect MMO leveling fodder:

You start as a scout squad, and get blooded into an actual space marine, and then advance into a branching class path of assault, devastator, whatnot, and finally make it to first company and become your path's terminator. Then instance the high end pve by clearing space hulks, and add pvp to taste purging the xenos.

Really, 40k's IP is setup perfectly for a diku, we just don't want to admit it because it's more fun to think of it as either a wargame or as woo FPS. Because it would also make an interesting FPS if you ignore Firewarrior or whatever, where a lone shitty tau infantryman manages to take out an entire strike cruiser of space marines :P

[Ratman_tf]

The Emperor exists only as a psychic entity, exerting his will across the Empire... this includes communication and orders with lesser Lords, who then they themselves psychically command  their forces (if they've got the ability, which since info. travels faster telepathically, is pretty much a requirement).  Ultramarines included.  Of course, the whole religious zealot thing makes them even more succeptible to a lack of free will to begin with...  if the Emperor psychically empowers an ultramarine squad (who look upon him as a God), you can pretty much guarantee they're gonna do what he says assuming he doesnt just take over their minds.

That's really not what the Emperor does or how the Imperium works. We can get into this in another thread if you like but you are pretty much wrong on all counts here.

One only has to peep at all the Marine chapters that fall to chaos to see this.

[DLRiley]

While it's been many moons since I played 40k, I thought they had "levels" of a sort.  I don't recall if you just paid more points to make a squad vets, for an increase in WS/BS/hits/whatever, or if they would gain some for of XP over time, and become Vet units, albeit at a higher pt value.

Even if they didn't, it wouldn't be hard to implement something similar.  Various objectives give you victory points, which can be used to unlock/buy upgraded weapons, purity seals, terminator armor, whatever.  Similar deal for other races.

That'd be too easy, and make too much sense, so they'll probably make "classes", and so Space Marine becomes a "race", and you can be a grunt, and then spec into tactical, or assault marine. The Adeptus Mechanicus is for crafters, or whatever.

They have levels in the sense that you buy (in the newer books) things like vets or command entities.

As for classes, you should probably have at most two space marine classes (marine and medic), but otherwise the space marines as a singular class/race choice make for perfect MMO leveling fodder:

You start as a scout squad, and get blooded into an actual space marine, and then advance into a branching class path of assault, devastator, whatnot, and finally make it to first company and become your path's terminator. Then instance the high end pve by clearing space hulks, and add pvp to taste purging the xenos.

Really, 40k's IP is setup perfectly for a diku, we just don't want to admit it because it's more fun to think of it as either a wargame or as woo FPS. Because it would also make an interesting FPS if you ignore Firewarrior or whatever, where a lone shitty tau infantryman manages to take out an entire strike cruiser of space marines :P

Ok I must be bias against diku's but the last thing I want to see is for the diku genre to neuter 40k IP.  

[Cadaverine]

Yeah, I don't want a diku either, but for Marines, Eldar, and Orcs, it's easy enough to see how they could create a progression path from grunt to whatever.  I'm sure the other races have a similar progression, though it'd take some mental acrobatics to buy it.

Me, I just want Sisters of Battle.  I've no really idea why, but the idea is intriguing to me.  Probably something to do with bewbs.

Barring that, I'd be kosher with being able to play as either Slaanesh, or Nurgle, on the Chaos side.  That was probably the most disappointing thing about Chaos in WAR.  Despite the Tzeentch tattoo, being limited to that faction only was a major bummer.