Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread

[Draegan]

Ok I'm just going to do this because... I like wasting time.

Chapters 1-4: Intro to TTR
Chapters 5-10: Trolloc Attack and fleeing TTR
Chapters 11-17: Crossing the Taren River - Meeting Min

Chapters 18-34 - Shadar Logoth and the road to Caemlyn

• Chapters 18-20: Shadar Logoth and the group splits
• Chapter 21,28: Nynaeve chapters
• Chapters 22-23, 25,27,29-30: Perrin chapters
• Chapters 24,26,31,32-34 : Rand chapters

Chapters 35-43: Everything in Caemlyn

• Chapter 37-38: Nynaeve and Perrin still working their way to Caemlyn
• Chapter 39: Logain arrives in Caemlyn
• Chapter 40: Gwain, Galad, Elaida and Elayne introduced
• Chapter 41 - Morraine, Nynaeve, Egwene, Perrin and Lan reunite with Rand and Mat

Chapters 44-46: The Ways
Chapters 47-50: The Blight ending with the Eye of the World
Chapters 51-52: The big fight
Chapter 53: Final Chapter

Some Metrics:
32% of the book is prior to Shadar Logath
32% of the book is the journey to Caemlyn
17% of the book takes place in Caemlyn
6% of the book takes place in the Ways
13% of the book takes place in the Blight

Using these metrics, assuming 8 episodes

2.5 episodes should be used to bring the party across the Taren River
2.5 episodes should be used to get the party from Shadar Logoth to Tar Valon
1.5 episodes should be used in Tar Valon prior to the Ways
0.5 episodes should be used to Travel the Ways
1.0 episodes should be used in the Blight

Episode breakdown:
Episode 1: Flee TTR
Episode 2: Cross Tarren Ferry, enter Shadar Logoth
Episode 3: Journey To Tar Valon
Episode 4: Logain Battle/Thom intro
Episode 5: Travel to Tar Valon/Lan Episode
Episode 6: Tar Valon Episode
Episode 7: The Ways
Episode 8: The Blight

They basically nailed it honestly.

[Ashamanchill]

They basically nailed it honestly.

Except for one very important fact. They have forgotten they are a TV show and not a book. In the book, by now, we have spent tons of time in the head of Rand, so we know him and by extension Matt, and in the head of Perrin, and so we get him and a little Egwene. That's 3 of the potential dragons, or 4 if you believe what the show is selling, that we have spent time with and learned about. We know Rand is grappling with Tam not being his father, a super critical plot point. Has he even brought it up in the show? We know that Rand looks up to Lan, another critical plot point with ramifications for how Rand deals with emotions later on. We know he has a Heron marked blade, which is a big deal, and that he doesn't sell it In the show they have maybe one line together? We know how Perrin thinks slowly but deliberately. We know he misses his forge and basically sees live through the eyes of a blacksmith. Kinda critical. In the show?

Instead, the show delves into tower politics in an attempt to be like GoT, before it has even finished establishing why the fuck we should care about 4 of our 5 potential dragons. So when Rand is revealed to be the DR (which was confirmed by Brandon Sanderson after he was hounded and harassed), it's gonna be just some pretty boy white dude that the show has spent the least time on of all the characters, in an ill conceived attempt to subvert expectations. And don't even mention Matt's dagger, a multi book arc that took the equivalent of Trauma Team 6 to cure. Moraine sees it, says "Whoa, that no good. Bippidy boppedt boo, that's all done. Who's hungry, cuz I could go for some Tairen heh heh heh."

Robert Jordan was a shitty writer. But even he didn't dump all of his characters on us at once. Dealing with the tower right now feels like if Game of Thrones starting going into the Sand snakes before they established who Arya and Sansa are.

[Draegan]

Just saying they nailed breaking down the season to mimic the pacing of the book, as in how much time they are spending on each segment of the story. I didn't say they did it well. There are plenty of problems.

[SurfD]

Not to mention all the little details that the books can take a few pages to explain that really help build up the world and the lore that the TV series has to put a bit more work into setting up.

There's other things as well.  Like, if they have to go full hamfisted "beat you over the head with it" style to get something across, it's a fairly good indicator of a shitty showrunner.  For example, having Perrin murder his wife with an axe just so they can brute force the Hammer vs Axe internal conflict, rather than just letting it build naturally as part of his character the way it did in the books.

[slog]

Game of Thrones did a great job of 1) Getting the audience to fall in love with the main characters and then killing them and 2) Lots of boobs and sex HBO style. It's hard for the Wheel of Time to come of as anything other than Young Adult fiction on the big screen without those.

[Khaldun]

/eyeroll.

Martin's moves in those respects in Game of Thrones were HIS MOVES, I mean, that was what distinguished the books from everything that came before. You take an older series and you GoT it up in terms of "surprise! the main character is dead!" and you're just going to look completely stupid and unoriginal.

Sure, yes, there's writers since then that have been doing some similar "everything you know is wrong" moves--the way that the Gandalf-type character in The First Law turns out to be very different from what you expect (and the torturer character turns out to be the closest to a real hero that the series has). But you can't make GoT into a universal expectation in that respect.

Boobs and sex, you can probably do that. But even there, that was actually thematically important to GoT as well as a draw for audiences--the whole plot kicks into motion because a kid sees a brother and sister committing incest.

[Rendakor]

Right, but they forced a Rand x Egwene sex scene into WoT that never happened in the books, so that was an opportunity for some T&A. They could have injected some sexiness to the darkfriend at the inn. We just got another not-in-books sex scene this last episode, that again faded to black. But they showed some boobs in the bath scene, which honestly makes the whole thing confusing. Are they going for PG-13, or are we doing Tits and Dragons?

[Threash]

Egwene's had like four chances to show some titty, they are obviously not doing it. They got zero problems with showing you extreme close up of gruesome injuries though, they'll even go dr pimplepopper on that ass.

[lamaros]

The end of EotW is the worst part of that book, so at least the tv show won't be able to miss that bar, comparatively.

(Yeah I got bored and read ahead and finished the first book)

[lamaros]

Just saying they nailed breaking down the season to mimic the pacing of the book, as in how much time they are spending on each segment of the story. I didn't say they did it well. There are plenty of problems.

This would only be true if they spent that time on the story, and not made up fan fic instead.

[Khaldun]

Look, if they want to move past Jordan's basically 16-year old incel perspective on things, that would be ok with me. There's plenty of chances to dial it up from the basic situations. Less braid-pulling, more pulling on dicks or whatever.

[Ashamanchill]

Weirdly enough, Robert Jordan's first draft he submitted to Tor was sexed up to the core. It sounded like the written form of a 80s metal album cover.  It was Tom Doherty who told him to tone it back, and I guess he decided to take that effort into 5th gear.

[rattran]

Trying to reread the series. Got to Path of Daggers (where I noped out the first time as they were being published) and am losing the will to go on. When does Jordon die and the other guy take over?

[Ashamanchill]

Book 11 is his last pure one. 12, 13, and 14 are Sanderson, although it's plain that 12 and 13 have a few RJ written chapters. Sanderson is a much better scene by scen writer than RJ. By like a country mile.

But it doesn't matter. You aren't going to make it past book 10. 800 plus pages of pure filler. It's the written equivalent of those little bags of chips 75 percent filled with air. Nah that's not true, those have more content than Book 10.

[Sir T]

You can truly say that the WOT Wikipedia summaries are so much better than the books and are the best way to "read" them.

[Rasix]

Trying to reread the series. Got to Path of Daggers (where I noped out the first time as they were being published) and am losing the will to go on. When does Jordon die and the other guy take over?

Path of Daggers is what initially kicked me off the series. That one is rough. Next two aren't much better.

[Ashamanchill]

I like Book 9, significant shit actually happens in that. But then I liked Book 8. Book 10 is used bong water though, even by the standards of the series. As in, no matter how much you like dig the IP, book 10 is a pitiful nadir. The author even admitted as such.

You can truly say that the WOT Wikipedia summaries are so much better than the books and are the best way to "read" them.

I don't know about that. RJ has a lot of writing flaws, but his world can get immersive if you let it. I'm not going to go around recommending it to adults, but it can be engaging.

[Lucas]

Hey guys, happy to be back (nah, didn't go anywhere in particular, just the nature of the internet :D).

Since I'm the thread starter, I would like to share my opinion on the series so far:  I think it's...yeah, just a little above average, surely nothing special, so far.
IMO, most of the actors are good enough considering their inexperience ( talking about the Emond's Field fellas, of course) and they're trying their best with the lines they're given.

Now, my opinion is that, while bad writing is always bad, 8 episodes are just too few for WoT (in fact, dunno if you watched them, but they resorted to "extra" videos explaining the lore via the Prime Video X-ray function).

Yeah, there are istances where writing is barely above a D&D amateur module, with catchphrases put here and there just for the sake of it, but they're just blazing through everything without the possibility to care about the characters, especially for newcomers (see the Egwene and Nynaeve reunion at Tar Valon: it lacked any pathos, IMO).

Sure, it's the job of the executive producer and the writers to juggle with the source material and provide something of quality, but the need to rush through everything is obvious. I mean, even GOT S1 (and onwards) had 10 episodes; yeah, in that case the source material was definitely superior, and perhaps the show writers themselves were better, but 8 it's just too little.

So, for Amazon 8 episodes represent the perfect cost/benefit ratio at the moment? Good, go ahead but then enjoy your rushed product (Can't wait for S2 where we might get Falme in episode 4 and the Stone of Tear in episode 8  )

[Rendakor]

Trying to reread the series. Got to Path of Daggers (where I noped out the first time as they were being published) and am losing the will to go on. When does Jordon die and the other guy take over?

Path of Daggers is what initially kicked me off the series. That one is rough. Next two aren't much better.

Path of Daggers is the last one I read originally as well. I can't remember if I actually read 9-10 on my reread once Sanderson finished them, or if I just read wiki summaries. I know I did not reread 8.

[Ashamanchill]

So the new episode isn't too too bad. Finally busts out some character development, even is some of it is ineptly done. I do have one severe problem though. What the fuck did they do to Min? Look, I know there is always going to be issues of 'thats not how they are in the book', and I am not talking about their ethnicity. For example, the dude that plays Perrin, while big, is not as built as Perrin is supposed to be. That mother fucker is supposed to look like Triple H or some shit. But all that pales in comparison to their portrayal of Min. Damn they did her dirty. She looks like a used up Thai hooker whos pushing 50 ffs. And the funny part is, in the actresses promo pictures, she looks like a perfectly fine Min. Maybe a tad on the old side. But damn.

[Teleku]

This one bugged me more than most.  I felt the dialog took a big nose dive.  Just stupid daytime TV soap opera level tier dialog and acting.  That was basically the whole episode.



Though, I will say, the Blood Snow brought to screen was pretty awesome, so I do love it for that.

But all that pales in comparison to their portrayal of Min. Damn they did her dirty. She looks like a used up Thai hooker whos pushing 50 ffs. And the funny part is, in the actresses promo pictures, she looks like a perfectly fine Min. Maybe a tad on the old side. But damn.

I had the same thought.  Like, I'm really trying not to be that guy, but they seem to be going out of there way to ugly up fucking everybody.  I saw the casting pic and was like "oh yeah, that could be min!"  Then they did this.  Again, this series is really suffering by not trying to directly adapt the books instead of just making their own story slightly based on the books.  You can shit on Jordan all you want (and he deserves it) but he wrote a lot of great character moments (on top of the endless world building) that were a lot of fun and kept us stringing along.  That's how he sold millions of books, unlike the writers of this show.  Rand's interactions with Min where some of my favorite.  This all just went wrong (yet again).  They should be picking and choosing the best interactions from the book and bringing them to screen instead of going their own way.

[Riggswolfe]

Trying to reread the series. Got to Path of Daggers (where I noped out the first time as they were being published) and am losing the will to go on. When does Jordon die and the other guy take over?

Path of Daggers is what initially kicked me off the series. That one is rough. Next two aren't much better.

Path of Daggers is the last one I read originally as well. I can't remember if I actually read 9-10 on my reread once Sanderson finished them, or if I just read wiki summaries. I know I did not reread 8.

I think it's where I noped out and never finished the series. But I was getting exhausted with it before that even. The books were just endless at that point and I found it harder and harder to care. I think momentum got me to Path of Daggers and I didn't even finish that book. I finally checked it all on out the WoT wiki and my reaction was mostly "huh, so and so died and that happened. Ok. " and I moved on.

[lamaros]

Don't know I'm going to watch the next one. This is real ehh territory.

Probably still will just to enjoy all the people losing their shit on both sides in the Reddit threads.

[HaemishM]

It's fine. The budget is being spent on a Syfy level, the changes they've made to the story from the book have made zero sense, the mystery of "WHO IS THE DRAGON?" was overdone and led to almost zero character development for the main protagonist, and their attempts to "mature" it up have been laughable, since nothing they've done to amp up the sexy couldn't have been done on cable TV.

But compared to what I expected, it's not that bad. Grade it on a curve, remove any expectations that it'll be like the books and you might be able to watch it. The hardcore fans? They should be ready to burn down Amazon at this point.

[Lucas]

A look inside episode 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFgCC-G7PU&ab_channel=AmazonPrimeVideo

Nice BTS about the awesome "cold opening" (I looked up Madja Sittova on IG and she's a totally badass stuntwoman. Don't particularly care about the "realism" of that fight...Give me that anytime in my high fantasy setting), the particular camera they used and  how they built the "Ways" set

[Engels]

I'm sorry if I am covering conversational territory already covered in this thread, but I am watching it so I don't wanna give myself spoilers.

I tried to read this series a while back and I just couldn't get over the writing 'style', to put it in a neutral way; so many people LOVED the series I feel it would be hubris to dismiss the series, so I've tried to keep quiet about my issues with the writing out of mere politeness. However, I never really understood the hype.

This series, after like, 4 episodes, finally effectively communicated to me the appeal of the show. Although I do consider the whole thing overly dramatic, it is as Haemish suggests, eminently watchable for me, since the show is forced into the writers' commandment of 'show don't tell', which the original author broke with whimsical impunity. Its nearly as if the television serial treatment of the story has cured it of its problematic nature in writing and I can finally digest it. Sorta like non-dairy ice cream for the lactose intolerant.

[Phildo]

Nothing about the visible braid tugging in this one, eh?

[Riggswolfe]

I'm sorry if I am covering conversational territory already covered in this thread, but I am watching it so I don't wanna give myself spoilers.

I tried to read this series a while back and I just couldn't get over the writing 'style', to put it in a neutral way; so many people LOVED the series I feel it would be hubris to dismiss the series, so I've tried to keep quiet about my issues with the writing out of mere politeness. However, I never really understood the hype.

This series, after like, 4 episodes, finally effectively communicated to me the appeal of the show. Although I do consider the whole thing overly dramatic, it is as Haemish suggests, eminently watchable for me, since the show is forced into the writers' commandment of 'show don't tell', which the original author broke with whimsical impunity. Its nearly as if the television serial treatment of the story has cured it of its problematic nature in writing and I can finally digest it. Sorta like non-dairy ice cream for the lactose intolerant.

Robert Jordan is an odd writer for me. He could be interesting but he had, at the risk of offense, super, awful ADHD when it came to plotting and characters. He'd just ramble aimlessly, then get super focused on important BS, then wander aimlessly some more. The man had talent, he just badly needed an editor and perhaps to meet some actual real life women.

[Ashamanchill]

The man had talent, he just badly needed an editor and perhaps to meet some actual real life women.

The irony being, his editor was his wife. Case in point of why that should never happen.

[HaemishM]

Nothing about the visible braid tugging in this one, eh?

Oh no, I spotted it immediately and laughed my ass off.

The thing about the Wheel of Time is very much rooted in when it was released. Epic/Tolkein-esque fantasy was in a pretty barren patch when these books were first released. You either had just blatant (and very bad) ripoffs like Terry Brooks' Shannara or you had bodice rippers that were Conan ripoffs (ironically some of which Jordan wrote). Eye of the World was a pretty AT THE TIME "fresh" take on the Tolkien-esque epic fantasy that took it to a different place. Unfortunately, what talent Jordan had was pissed away by not having a good editor (his wife) who could objectively prune some of this shit AND being so successful that the publisher had no reason to reign him in as well. I worked at a bookstore around the time of Lord of Chaos' release, and that shit just sold like gangbusters, better than just about anything else in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section. No publisher was going to tell him "You need to finish this now," even though by then it was clear he was just spinning his wheels.

[Rendakor]

I'm sorry if I am covering conversational territory already covered in this thread, but I am watching it so I don't wanna give myself spoilers.

I tried to read this series a while back and I just couldn't get over the writing 'style', to put it in a neutral way; so many people LOVED the series I feel it would be hubris to dismiss the series, so I've tried to keep quiet about my issues with the writing out of mere politeness. However, I never really understood the hype.

This series, after like, 4 episodes, finally effectively communicated to me the appeal of the show. Although I do consider the whole thing overly dramatic, it is as Haemish suggests, eminently watchable for me, since the show is forced into the writers' commandment of 'show don't tell', which the original author broke with whimsical impunity. Its nearly as if the television serial treatment of the story has cured it of its problematic nature in writing and I can finally digest it. Sorta like non-dairy ice cream for the lactose intolerant.

When I started reading the series, Book 7 had just come out. I was 12 or 13 years old, and Wheel of Time (along with Dragonlance) were the first fantasy books I ever read. And really, other than some Jules Vern and Stephen King, they were the first books that I read that weren't meant specifically for kids (Goosebumps, Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys, etc.). So, a big driver of my affection for the series is simple nostalgia. That said, as I mentioned a few posts ago, I read book 8 and basically ragequit, and have never recommended the series to anyone without plenty of caveats (at least, not as an adult).

Robert Jordan was a fantastic world builder, though, and it really feels like Randland was alive for centuries before the story even started. And he very obviously got distracted while writing, spending chapters on little nonsense tangents that would not film well at all but brought the world to life. When we got whole books of that, I mostly lost interest. But even when I reread most of WoT whenever Sanderson finished it, I never had "wait a minute, that doesn't make any goddamn sense" moments because the world is very well fleshed out. (Compare to something like Harry Potter which is just a story about Potter and friends vs Voldemort, with subsequent books very obviously inventing new magic, then forgetting about it in the next book because whatever).

[SurfD]

Robert Jordan was a fantastic world builder, though, and it really feels like Randland was alive for centuries before the story even started. And he very obviously got distracted while writing, spending chapters on little nonsense tangents that would not film well at all but brought the world to life. When we got whole books of that, I mostly lost interest. But even when I reread most of WoT whenever Sanderson finished it, I never had "wait a minute, that doesn't make any goddamn sense" moments because the world is very well fleshed out.

This was a big part of the appeal in the series for me.   I was the pretty stereotypical book nerd in grade school / highschool, and pretty much voraciously devoured fantasy stuff.  I started with Dragonlance/Forgotten realms stuff, but quickly moved into basically anything I could get my hands on after that: had read the complete lord of the rings while in like grade 6 or 7, had done Shannanara, Thomas Covenant, most of the stuff by David Eddings (Belgariad, etc), Feist (Riftwar Saga), and most of their contemporaries.   If it was decent (or even mediocre) fantasy from the 80s to 90s I had probably already read it before stumbling across Wheel in the highschool library.

I just loved the depth of detail Jordan put into his world, and it was also pretty damn crazy how deeply he must have been thinking about where he was going with the series.  Like, I can honestly recall being pretty damn impressed by the fact that you could be reading book 8 or 9, and stumble across threads for shit he had laid down the start of as far back as the first book:  like, plot details that you thought were just things he had tossed out and forgotten about 4 books ago suddenly tied in to a major thing that was happening as if intended all along.

[Threash]

Exactly. I enjoy reading about the world and lore and history more than i enjoyed reading most of the actual books.

[Riggswolfe]

I started with Dragonlance/Forgotten realms stuff, but quickly moved into basically anything I could get my hands on after that: had read the complete lord of the rings while in like grade 6 or 7, had done Shannanara, Thomas Covenant, most of the stuff by David Eddings (Belgariad, etc), Feist (Riftwar Saga), and most of their contemporaries.   

Thomas Covenant was so much better than the Wheel of the Time to my memory though it's been a long, long time since I read it and I may have some severe rose colored glasses. I know it has some super problematic elements as well (seriously, what was it with fantasy authors in the 80s and 90s?) but it was still a very good series and actually told the story in a reasonable page count.

[Sir T]

Ya, Covenant was my bag too. I also loved the third Shannarra book, by far the best of them.

Even though I read a lot of fantasy back then, I'm struggling to remember any of the rest. It just was sludge in my head

 I read Lord of Chaos as everyone I knew was talking about it how great it was, and I thought it was ok but meandering. I basically said "Eh, I'll read the set when the series is finished." Then it turned into the literal Never-ending story, and I was glad I never bothered.