The Elder Scrolls Online

[MediumHigh]

Angry Joe review.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upE802rZl7Q

It looks like mmo circa last time I played one. Reminds me of chronicles of spellborn.

[satael]

Angry Joe review.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upE802rZl7Q

It looks like mmo circa last time I played one. Reminds me of chronicles of spellborn.

I'm really looking forward to the second part (PVP) of that review since it's what I'm really only interested on finding out more about (and the NDA prevents people whose opinions I actually listen to a bit from saying much about it except some very veiled indications it's actually good)

[Venkman]

So this is still pretty much "All the things you loved about Skyrim...totally not included here.  But don't worry, we've made up for that by including all the things you didn't like or didn't care about, plus all the usual trappings of a modern day MMO that you probably have grown to hate by now".

Yes. But take out "modern day".

By modern, I meant tab targeting and hotbar clicky combat.  Because that's what all the other failed AAA MMOs are doing.  Am I wrong?

"Modern" to me is more Secret World, GW2, maybe PS2, a mix of post-WoW combat styles. Everything else is

Even though I've uninstalled it...

[Hoax]

Angry Joe review.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upE802rZl7Q

It looks like mmo circa last time I played one. Reminds me of chronicles of spellborn.

Actually worth watching or at least putting on and listening to. I'm surprised that it looks that good and the general audio quality seems high. However the world is very empty and lifeless, the combat looks boring as hell, the mobs look boring as hell, the inventory is console shit. High level armor sets looked good but I bet loot diversity is not TESO's strong point. Meanwhile every voice on that video has to get some words in on just how rote the questing is, just the same old bullshit nothing exciting to see here.

There is zero chance the game shown there is worth $60+$15/mo in the current marketplace.

[Cyrrex]

So this is still pretty much "All the things you loved about Skyrim...totally not included here.  But don't worry, we've made up for that by including all the things you didn't like or didn't care about, plus all the usual trappings of a modern day MMO that you probably have grown to hate by now".

Yes. But take out "modern day".

By modern, I meant tab targeting and hotbar clicky combat.  Because that's what all the other failed AAA MMOs are doing.  Am I wrong?

"Modern" to me is more Secret World, GW2, maybe PS2, a mix of post-WoW combat styles. Everything else is

Even though I've uninstalled it...

Of those, I have only played Secret World.  I enjoy it for it's atmosphere, and yes, the fact that it is somehow different than the others.  Still, at the end of the day, there is a lot of hotbar combat going on, and running around from one quest giver to the next.  I tire of it quickly and will only go back to it once in a while.  Same with SWTOR.

[Falconeer]

Rumor is, open threeway PvP is fun and, quoting, "exactly like DAoC". I am trying to confirm this, but comments don't seem very coherent yet. The buzz seems to be there though.

[Venkman]

Of those, I have only played Secret World.  I enjoy it for it's atmosphere, and yes, the fact that it is somehow different than the others.  Still, at the end of the day, there is a lot of hotbar combat going on, and running around from one quest giver to the next.  I tire of it quickly and will only go back to it once in a while.  Same with SWTOR.

Yea. But for me that's too literal a take. Every MMO I've ever played had hotbars, and all of them save PS1/2 had quest givers. What differentiates old and new to me is the visceral feel.

SW, GW2 and certainly PS2 all had a lot more active combat. This was very different than standing in one spot and hitting autoattack. Granted, we haven't done just that in an MMO since early EQ1 and UO. But just having a dodge ability which wasn't purely stat based changed how combat feels from even WoW. If I recall, DDO had this as well.

Hotbars were also very different. Fewer abilities you used more often, many more than stacked, many which are contextual to the situation, abilities, weapons, and not being locked into just the one thing your class can do. GW2 and SWTOR both have hotbars. But they are the "same" only in that they appeared in the bottom center of the screen

There's some modern trappings that TESO has. The videos have shown dodge, how combat uses Skyrim's manual-swing/cast left right mouse approach, ample voiceovers for immersion and so on. But it all is handled in ways that make accurate your original point "All the things you loved about Skyrim...totally not included here.  But don't worry, we've made up for that by including all the things you didn't like or didn't care about, plus all the usual trappings of a modern day MMO that you probably have grown to hate by now".

Edit: fixed formatting

[Cyrrex]

Yeah, I'll concede that even SW improves the visceral feel somewhat, but not enough for me to get too excited about for more than just a few minutes.  To be honest, though, I want full on FPS controls.  Hell, I would take Skyrim combat exactly as it was, for that matter.  It wasn't great, but it was still more visceral than any MMO.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yeah, I'll concede that even SW improves the visceral feel somewhat, but not enough for me to get too excited about for more than just a few minutes.  To be honest, though, I want full on FPS controls.  Hell, I would take Skyrim combat exactly as it was, for that matter.  It wasn't great, but it was still more visceral than any MMO.

But that would mean going against the standard MMO trope of having a bajillion abilities all determined by your class.  To think they would use skyrims combat model of two hands and activating whatever was in each hand with the click of a button.  Why, that system has been proven an abject failure as all games using it have tanked horribly.

[Ghambit]

How is activating something in each hand with the click of a button any different then clicking a button to activate something?   

[Venkman]

Skyrim vs WoW. In Skryim you click left or right and it does something on click against whatever you have under the target reticle. This means that thing can move out of the way, you can lead your moving targeting, you can move while casting, etc. In WoW you (mostly) have some target selected, you click a button, and whether the ability works or not is left to stat calculations.

I suspect you know this too It feels different because it emphasizes different things.

[Lakov_Sanite]

How is activating something in each hand with the click of a button any different then clicking a button to activate something?   

Not sure if trolling.....

[Ghambit]

No, he was compare/contrasting the input effort rather then the output.  The former is not really the point of his argument.
Where am I going with this?  There are countless 'button-masher' action-y games that are orders of magnitude more whack-a-mole then even the most diku of dikus.  Similarly, by the 3rd act the player has grown weary of the system.

For me, I'm more concerned with depth of input rather than flashy output.  Choice supercedes feel, because feel tends to wear thin quicker then depth.  Good games can combine the two well enough to give meaning to each button-press.

It's evident in TESO (judging by the vids) because people just starting out aren't given much choice; both mechanically and thematically.  You find the action macro (within the confines of a gamepad); rinse, wash, repeat.  And the mob animations are exactly the same as a game such as Wildstar, only minus the ground indicators.  In TESO I may block (if I've got a shield) or dodge, like in Wildstar.  Or maybe in Wildstar I push a shield button or portal, etc.

It's all the same shit.  Both games also have turn-based dicerolls btw; just one feels more real-time because it's more mouse-reliant then the other and reaction is seemingly more a factor.  Note, I say seemingly because animators are great at hiding a gameturn inside of an overly long animation... wherein your turn has already been taken the moment you pushed-the-button.

[Stormwaltz]

To be honest, though, I want full on FPS controls.  Hell, I would take Skyrim combat exactly as it was, for that matter.  It wasn't great, but it was still more visceral than any MMO.

That's where I felt the genre was headed with GW2, NWN, TERA, Defiance, PS2, and probably some things I've forgotten.

My personal worry is that this trend will eventually shut me - and many other traditional MMG players - out. I'm not good at shooters. I enjoy them, but I've never have had great reflexes, and I'm getting old. I can handle M&B and Skyrim because they're single player, and if I can't get around a problem through reload attrition, I can always adjust the difficulty by metagame actions. But I had to quit Defiance after a month because of a content-locking boss fight I couldn't beat.

I suspect we may end up in a world where MMGs split in two; action games that are essentially massive shooters for the achievers and killers, and sandboxes that still have some iteration of round-based push-button combat for the explorers and socializers.

[Venkman]

It's all the same shit.  Both games also have turn-based dicerolls btw; just one feels more real-time because it's more mouse-reliant then the other and reaction is seemingly more a factor.  Note, I say seemingly because animators are great at hiding a gameturn inside of an overly long animation... wherein your turn has already been taken the moment you pushed-the-button.

All true. And? By that definition, Battlefield is the same as Skyrim. I mean, it's all just layers of obfuscation between button press, context-based calculation, affect and feedback right?

The feel is important. The feel of more recent MMOs differs from earlier ones almost entirely by that feel.

[Senses]

To be honest, though, I want full on FPS controls.  Hell, I would take Skyrim combat exactly as it was, for that matter.  It wasn't great, but it was still more visceral than any MMO.

That's where I felt the genre was headed with GW2, NWN, TERA, Defiance, PS2, and probably some things I've forgotten.

My personal worry is that this trend will eventually shut me - and many other traditional MMG players - out. I'm not good at shooters. I enjoy them, but I've never have had great reflexes, and I'm getting old. I can handle M&B and Skyrim because they're single player, and if I can't get around a problem through reload attrition, I can always adjust the difficulty by metagame actions. But I had to quit Defiance after a month because of a content-locking boss fight I couldn't beat.

I suspect we may end up in a world where MMGs split in two; action games that are essentially massive shooters for the achievers and killers, and sandboxes that still have some iteration of round-based push-button combat for the explorers and socializers.

I've yet to encounter an Action based MMORPG that I would describe as "twitch" no matter if you have to aim or not.  In Tera you almost had to face away from something not to hit it.  I think the bigger trend is the way Wildstar is going where there are big red and blue tells all over everything so there is little doubt what you are aimed at, and what's aimed at you.

[tmp]

I've yet to encounter an Action based MMORPG that I would describe as "twitch" no matter if you have to aim or not.  In Tera you almost had to face away from something not to hit it.

It will depend on the class and its skillset -- a melee class with aoe moves at melee range will indeed have no problem hitting things, but that's quite expected. In contrast when I play archer in Tera I can miss literally 9 shots out of 10 trying to hit people in battlegrounds. The hitboxes are character sized (a bit bigger for small races to level the field) and it is very easy to fire at empty air.

As far as locking out players due to twitch goes, I could see these games borrow further from the action games as time goes, and introduce difficulty levels, with the lower ones giving more leeway in how good you need to be at the twitch part. Heck, they are already half way there with the 'normal' and 'hard/epeenic' versions of instances and such.

[Ghambit]

It's all the same shit.  Both games also have turn-based dicerolls btw; just one feels more real-time because it's more mouse-reliant then the other and reaction is seemingly more a factor.  Note, I say seemingly because animators are great at hiding a gameturn inside of an overly long animation... wherein your turn has already been taken the moment you pushed-the-button.

All true. And? By that definition, Battlefield is the same as Skyrim. I mean, it's all just layers of obfuscation between button press, context-based calculation, affect and feedback right?

The feel is important. The feel of more recent MMOs differs from earlier ones almost entirely by that feel.

Battlefield is a reticule-based, hitbox, collision-detected FPS with physics and a healthy dose of RTR.  Almost a totally different animal, but I see somewhat your point.
If TESO had collision detection, the animations were more like Chivalry, and there weren't dicerolls - then one could say it's different then your standard Diku.  Then we'd be talkin M&B MMO.   

[Cyrrex]

I won't bother quoting any specific post, but will simply rebut that the input can be EVERYTHING in terms of the visceral feel of combat.  In Skyrim, you don't really have to deal with cooldowns in the same way as with an MMO.  You spray fire until your mana pool is depleted.  You can use both hands and drain at twice the speed.  You can outfit yourself so that your mana usage and regen is insane, at the expense of having any physical protection, if you so choose.  Holy hell, I bet 9 people out of 10 used the first person viewpoint when playing Skyrim, because that's what the removal of tabbing, hotbars and cooldowns does for the action. 

Here is what it boils down to:  Just the simple act of shooting fireballs out of your hands in Skyrim is more fun than the combat action of any MMO I can think of.  That TESO goes away from that to any degree is pants-on-head retarded and the first nail in the coffin.  And that's without even bring melee and ranged combat into the discussion.

That is just the combat.  The sandboxy world and the freedom to do whatever the shit you want?  I am sure that is totally and utterly gone in every way that anyone gives a shit about.  And the graphics...Skyrim graphics are transcendent, if you have any kind of rig to pull them off.  I would actually play for stretches where I would refuse to fast travel, just because it was such an amazing experience to wander the landscape.  I have feeling TESO will offering nothing like that.

This game probably represents the biggest missed opportunity I can think of.  They can always reboot and retry, for example, another Star Wars MMO.  But they had one shot at Skyrim Online, and they struck the fuck out.

[Paelos]

The sad part is they were never trying for Skyrim Online. They realized a bit too late that just going for WoW with an Elder Scroll skin wasn't going to work, and they overhauled their combat per press release.

Comments on the result are still 

[Megrim]

I won't bother quoting any specific post, but will simply rebut that the input can be EVERYTHING in terms of the visceral feel of combat.  In Skyrim, you don't really have to deal with cooldowns in the same way as with an MMO.  You spray fire until your mana pool is depleted.  You can use both hands and drain at twice the speed.  You can outfit yourself so that your mana usage and regen is insane, at the expense of having any physical protection, if you so choose.  Holy hell, I bet 9 people out of 10 used the first person viewpoint when playing Skyrim, because that's what the removal of tabbing, hotbars and cooldowns does for the action.  

Here is what it boils down to:  Just the simple act of shooting fireballs out of your hands in Skyrim is more fun than the combat action of any MMO I can think of.  That TESO goes away from that to any degree is pants-on-head retarded and the first nail in the coffin.  And that's without even bring melee and ranged combat into the discussion.

That is just the combat.  The sandboxy world and the freedom to do whatever the shit you want?  I am sure that is totally and utterly gone in every way that anyone gives a shit about.  And the graphics...Skyrim graphics are transcendent, if you have any kind of rig to pull them off.  I would actually play for stretches where I would refuse to fast travel, just because it was such an amazing experience to wander the landscape.  I have feeling TESO will offering nothing like that.

This game probably represents the biggest missed opportunity I can think of.  They can always reboot and retry, for example, another Star Wars MMO.  But they had one shot at Skyrim Online, and they struck the fuck out.

What they needed to do was to just a Starbound-eque version of Elder Scrolls for multiple people. Create an ok single-player game that becomes a very good multi-player game when hosted on dedicated servers for 20-30 or so people. Wee, hard.

[Rendakor]

It's hard to charge sub fees or sell MTX stuff for Coop Skyrim, though.

[Ingmar]

I won't bother quoting any specific post, but will simply rebut that the input can be EVERYTHING in terms of the visceral feel of combat.  In Skyrim, you don't really have to deal with cooldowns in the same way as with an MMO.  You spray fire until your mana pool is depleted.  You can use both hands and drain at twice the speed.  You can outfit yourself so that your mana usage and regen is insane, at the expense of having any physical protection, if you so choose.  Holy hell, I bet 9 people out of 10 used the first person viewpoint when playing Skyrim, because that's what the removal of tabbing, hotbars and cooldowns does for the action.  

Here is what it boils down to:  Just the simple act of shooting fireballs out of your hands in Skyrim is more fun than the combat action of any MMO I can think of.  That TESO goes away from that to any degree is pants-on-head retarded and the first nail in the coffin.  And that's without even bring melee and ranged combat into the discussion.

That is just the combat.  The sandboxy world and the freedom to do whatever the shit you want?  I am sure that is totally and utterly gone in every way that anyone gives a shit about.  And the graphics...Skyrim graphics are transcendent, if you have any kind of rig to pull them off.  I would actually play for stretches where I would refuse to fast travel, just because it was such an amazing experience to wander the landscape.  I have feeling TESO will offering nothing like that.

This game probably represents the biggest missed opportunity I can think of.  They can always reboot and retry, for example, another Star Wars MMO.  But they had one shot at Skyrim Online, and they struck the fuck out.

What they needed to do was to just a Starbound-eque version of Elder Scrolls for multiple people. Create an ok single-player game that becomes a very good multi-player game when hosted on dedicated servers for 20-30 or so people. Wee, hard.

They might be working on such a thing now, who knows? This train was probably too far down the track before Skyrim came out and became Skyrim.

[koro]

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to keep in mind that this started development before even Fallout 3 came out.

[Cyrrex]

I won't bother quoting any specific post, but will simply rebut that the input can be EVERYTHING in terms of the visceral feel of combat.  In Skyrim, you don't really have to deal with cooldowns in the same way as with an MMO.  You spray fire until your mana pool is depleted.  You can use both hands and drain at twice the speed.  You can outfit yourself so that your mana usage and regen is insane, at the expense of having any physical protection, if you so choose.  Holy hell, I bet 9 people out of 10 used the first person viewpoint when playing Skyrim, because that's what the removal of tabbing, hotbars and cooldowns does for the action.  

Here is what it boils down to:  Just the simple act of shooting fireballs out of your hands in Skyrim is more fun than the combat action of any MMO I can think of.  That TESO goes away from that to any degree is pants-on-head retarded and the first nail in the coffin.  And that's without even bring melee and ranged combat into the discussion.

That is just the combat.  The sandboxy world and the freedom to do whatever the shit you want?  I am sure that is totally and utterly gone in every way that anyone gives a shit about.  And the graphics...Skyrim graphics are transcendent, if you have any kind of rig to pull them off.  I would actually play for stretches where I would refuse to fast travel, just because it was such an amazing experience to wander the landscape.  I have feeling TESO will offering nothing like that.

This game probably represents the biggest missed opportunity I can think of.  They can always reboot and retry, for example, another Star Wars MMO.  But they had one shot at Skyrim Online, and they struck the fuck out.

What they needed to do was to just a Starbound-eque version of Elder Scrolls for multiple people. Create an ok single-player game that becomes a very good multi-player game when hosted on dedicated servers for 20-30 or so people. Wee, hard.

They might be working on such a thing now, who knows? This train was probably too far down the track before Skyrim came out and became Skyrim.

This is more or less exactly what I think they should do.

[tmp]

Holy hell, I bet 9 people out of 10 used the first person viewpoint when playing Skyrim, because that's what the removal of tabbing, hotbars and cooldowns does for the action.

I bet 9 out of 10 people play it in first person because the character animations are Bethesda-level shit and just too painful to look at.

That one person who doesn't is the guy who modded his game and wants to stare at the naked ass cheeks in all their custom texture glory.

[Cyrrex]

Personally, I always prefer first person if the combat allows it.  It is naturally more visceral, even if there are some inherent disadvantages. 

Also, I don't feel like giving them a pass for the product they deliver because of their ridiculously long development cycles.  That's just insane.  We're always going to be doomed to get whatever was popular 7 years ago.  This is what happens when you get big mega corporations developing games.  They probably could have made Skyrim Co-op/Multiplayer in half a year and it would have eaten TESO's lunch.

[Ingmar]

The reason to play it in first person isn't the animations, its that that stupid off-to-the-left-uncentered figure thing is completely obnoxious. I'd play in 3rd person if it was centered. I want to see my character.

They probably could have made Skyrim Co-op/Multiplayer in half a year

I really, really doubt that. They'd need to build netcode/server stuff from scratch, figure out how to deal with time passing for multiple people on fast travel, and about a billion other things.

[Cyrrex]

I was exaggerating, of course.  But it would have been easier than this shit.

Aren't you one of those people that still thinks Diku combat is fun?  Like in SWTOR?  I don't mean that as a jab, just trying to put your comment in context.  Because I am tired as shit of it. 

[palmer_eldritch]

It really annoys me that selected people regarded as media can talk about the game but those of you who have been in beta aren't allowed to talk about it. I'm speaking as someone who hasn't been in beta and would like to know what's up with the game other than generally being bad.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I don't get the impression that it's bad, just that it's incredibly meh.

[Lucas]

It really annoys me that selected people regarded as media can talk about the game but those of you who have been in beta aren't allowed to talk about it. I'm speaking as someone who hasn't been in beta and would like to know what's up with the game other than generally being bad.

Well, talking again about NDA, for example here's a snippet from Wildstar's latest stress test e-mail invite (bold is mine):

Again, this event is under NDA. That means that you aren’t permitted to talk about your experiences. We love to be able to trust people, but we're not quite ready to pull the curtain away just yet.

See? They don't trust us!!   

[Rendakor]

The reason to play it in first person isn't the animations, its that that stupid off-to-the-left-uncentered figure thing is completely obnoxious. I'd play in 3rd person if it was centered. I want to see my character.

This. Dodging AoEs in first person is difficult, but an uncentered third-person is unplayable for me.

[Paelos]

I like first person because I'm playing as me, not a rendered version of me I see on the screen. It's an immersion thing.

[Hawkbit]

I don't get the impression that it's bad, just that it's incredibly meh.

meh is bad.