Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[Slyfeind]

This was the year of zombie mainstream titles dying. WAR, TR and AoC were started long enough ago that it is understandable they were built on older conventions and somewhat forgivable that the companies didn't truly yet get what they were up against with WoW. Any project started since 2006 though are the ones at the biggest risk. This is why I have been thinking for a few years now that the only way WoW gets dethroned is when the metric for success changes. There probably won't be another AAA monthly-fee based immersive 3D diku-inspired world that gets close to as many subscribers. Instead it'll be some part of that equation no longer deemed a requirement for success.

I'm not talking about games that are so different as to be incomparable as businesses. Rather, I'm thinking the next generation of gamers (todays tweens and young teens) will redefine the successes of "MMO" around things they're used to. Unlike the industry for which WoW was released and now dominates, these gamers grew up on the Internet, really never played D&D to any degree (why? there's plenty of acceptable mainstream methods for escape now), are social all the time in their form, and are too into multitasking to so specifically target one single game experience.

Companies now get what type of resources it truly takes to make a post-EQ1 era game for the hardcore gamer like us ("casual" in this medium is still hardcore by normal measure). Further, we're only getting older and less interested in anything south of WoW quality (the very essence of "discerning"). We're not a growth opportunity when its patently obvious what kind of game we want and what it takes to make it.

With this in mind, maybe people should stop competing with WoW and start competing with Runescape, EGADS!

[Venkman]

Does anyone here agree with me that WOWs Achilles heel is the fact that it is not on consoles as well as PC?
With that in mind I see plenty of potential for a MMOG to reach even new heights.

SOE is trying to prove just that. And the PS3 has enjoyed an upswing this year. If the console manufacturers can get out of the way of their own business models, I think we could see some growth there. But they'll be nowhere near what WoW has, at least not on this generation of consoles.

Having said that, I fully expect the inevitable Starcraft MMO to appear on a console, probably on whatever Nintendo does next, whether it's Wii HD or some successor model. PCs are not dead. They're still the breeding ground for new business models and methods of distribution. And as long as console manufacturers control the entire end-to-end business models, only the biggest publishers will be able to get the type of terms that'd be agreeable for an MMO. But now that diku-inspired MMOs have an established formula, it's more about getting those business terms than "figuring out" everything. For whoever is left in the interested-in-MMOs department in two years 

With this in mind, maybe people should stop competing with WoW and start competing with Runescape, EGADS!

That's what I've been saying for years (if you replace Runescape with browser-based) Lower risk, lower barrier of entry, more latitude on business models, less biased audience.

[Ratman_tf]

Does anyone here agree with me that WOWs Achilles heel is the fact that it is not on consoles as well as PC?
With that in mind I see plenty of potential for a MMOG to reach even new heights.

Final Fantasy XI?

[Iniquity]

With this in mind, maybe people should stop competing with WoW and start competing with Runescape, EGADS!

Can anyone find a way in which this statement isn't unbelievably true?

Runescape, AFAIK, is pretty fucking profitable.  Its core audience, ADHD-addled Little People, are especially vulnerable to the New Shiny, good at begging their parents for money, and willing to put up with a lot of flaws/lack of polish/lack of ubergraphics.

TR's devs may not have had the ability to get Tabula Rasa right, but a company like NCSoft should sure as hell be able to get Runescape +1 right.

It's the new moneyhats.

[Venkman]

Nothing new about it. Runescape's been around forever. A successor to browser-based games went for $700mil to Disney. Major IP and toy companies holders have already launched other MMOs. They're not really considered competition to WoW, but that's mostly because they're a completely different audience. It's for this reason that there is no single "MMO" genre to speak of. For years you've need to say "MMO like... X" in order to properly tell the story.

That's why beating WoW doesn't need to be a AAA $100mil download/retail full-screen MMO. The sensibilities of the next (and larger) generation of gamers are different enough to still need figuring out.

It's only the WoW style of MMOs that hit their cap.

[Lantyssa]

Final Fantasy XI?

Soul-crushing grind, lack of solo play, and rare hardware required at the time of launch made it a non-starter.  It wouldn't have taken much to have made it be the "WoW-killer" before WoW was around.

That's what makes a lot of people who tried it out, sad.  It was so damn close, but so very, very far away.  Unfortunately, one only gets to launch a title once.

[TheCastle]

Final Fantasy XI?

Soul-crushing grind, lack of solo play, and rare hardware required at the time of launch made it a non-starter.  It wouldn't have taken much to have made it be the "WoW-killer" before WoW was around.

That's what makes a lot of people who tried it out, sad.  It was so damn close, but so very, very far away.  Unfortunately, one only gets to launch a title once.

This is accurate
One might argue that that a proper MMOG has yet to be made for the console yet.
However keep in mind with all of the flaws of FFXI it has remained at about 500k subs for a very long time. This would not have been the case had the game been on PC only I speculate.

Something with the polish of say Warhammer that is set up for every skew could be quite a powerhouse.
FFXI has come a long way don't get me wrong. They just recently even announced quested xp system but it still to this day does not treat new players well enough and the fact that the hud is not customizable will immediately turn off most people right at the front door.

[Rendakor]

Something with the polish of say Warhammer that is set up for every skew could be quite a powerhouse.

Because we all know WAR is the new standard of how to make an MMO. 

[TheCastle]

Something with the polish of say Warhammer that is set up for every skew could be quite a powerhouse.

Because we all know WAR is the new standard of how to make an MMO. 

Ok .. I couldn't think of anything better lol..

edit: AH
I am willing to bet that if Tabula Rasa was multiplatform it would still be alive right now.

[Ratman_tf]

edit: AH
I am willing to bet that if Tabula Rasa was multiplatform it would still be alive right now.

I'd take that bet. Too bad we'll never know.

[JWIV]

I just realized something. 

Tabula Rasa is being killed off and Horizons Istaria still won't die.

[Lantyssa]

Tabula Rasa needed signs pointing to where the monsters are.

[Salamok]

Tabula Rasa needed signs pointing to where the monsters are.

Well he was in space but now he is back in Austin.  Oh yea and according to the news here he is resigning because he saw the light while aboard the ISS not because the game is a total failure or anything.

[Lum]

TR's devs may not have had the ability to get Tabula Rasa right, but a company like NCSoft should sure as hell be able to get Runescape +1 right.

It's the new moneyhats.

(weeps softly into his beer)

[Lantyssa]

(weeps softly into his beer)

Aww, geez.  *comfort*

[Tmon]

Shouldn't the thread title be changed to ".now with no servers" or something?

[UnSub]

TR's devs may not have had the ability to get Tabula Rasa right, but a company like NCSoft should sure as hell be able to get Runescape +1 right.

It's the new moneyhats.

(weeps softly into his beer)

We probably should buy you a round for every title killed in order to keep TR on life support that little bit longer.

... that'd be a hell of a hangover.

[UnSub]

Does anyone here agree with me that WOWs Achilles heel is the fact that it is not on consoles as well as PC?
With that in mind I see plenty of potential for a MMOG to reach even new heights.

This is where the easy growth is going to be. What too many companies have missed is that WoW grew the market. Competitors thought they could steal people away from WoW by offering something just a little bit better, forgetting that in order to do such a thing you've got to offer something A LOT better. If WAR had launched totally PvP focussed it could have grown the market in that direction (and there were over 800k players looking for that something different) but tried to offer PvE on the same level of WoW and tag PvP to it.

I might write an article on it, but 2008 is probably the most important year for MMOs in a long time. Why? Because it completely curb stomped the idea that MMOs don't die. They do die and can die very quickly for something that is planned over a (probably) 5 years life expectancy.

I don't actually think that the MMO industry expects to see another WoW-level success, but the fact that most of the AAA titles in recent memory end up with audiences of less than 500k really says something worrying about how hard it is to attract and keep players.

[Fordel]

Does anyone here agree with me that WOWs Achilles heel is the fact that it is not on consoles as well as PC?
With that in mind I see plenty of potential for a MMOG to reach even new heights.

Meh, It's not like WoW's system requirements ever hold anyone back. One of the long standing WoW 'strengths', is the fact the game will run on just about anything short of a toaster. When WoW came out, it was able to run on computers that at the time, were already 2-3 years old and outdated.

It STILL runs off of those things.


How many people own a console that is hooked into the internet, that do not own a computer?

[Venkman]

I am willing to bet that if Tabula Rasa was multiplatform it would still be alive right now.

No. The problem with console MMOs is two-fold. The first is the business modelling stuff I mentioned earlier. The second is the other games.

You can experiment with new PC experiences because the PC is a tool with lots of different functionalities, and is so pervasive you have a much wider reach. Consoles, as proliferate as they are, are just for gamers (and researches I suppose). On a PC, even a crappy MMO a few years ago could be presented as a good time-wasting alternative to just browsing wikipedia, online banking, or IMing friends. On a console though, an MMO has to present itself as a better game than the other games on there.

Sure there's a lot of derivative crap out there. But I cannot think of any current live MMO that wouldn't require a complete redesign of the whole user experience and core purpose for it to be a compelling alternative to the popular console titles.

TR would get crushed handly, and rightly. Heck, WoW as it exists right now wouldn't be very fun either with a console controller. Anyone play with a gamepad that could provide insights? I personally can't see how you could effectively manipulate the UI without a full keyboard, but I'm very biased.

[UnSub]

A console MMO needs a minimal UI (something nice and clean) and could - could, not saying it doesn't have its draw backs - rely a lot on VOIP for communication.

You'd have to keep abilities streamlined though - no way to do 5 different hotbars in a console MMO and make it flow smoothly in real-time.

[Venkman]

I think another problem is the reliance on pure statistics in combat that would otherwise be compared to fighting games. Having, say, only five abilities whose outcomes are preordained by statistics mostly would become boring real quick. Unless you added in something like such a robust storyline you lose the direct comparison to the grind-for-grind-sake that is modern PC-based diku MMOs.

So basically, completely change everything and then you have a place to start 

[SnakeCharmer]

Won't a 360 recognize a keyboard and mouse if you plug them into it? 

[TheCastle]

You know what I love this forum

You guys have a lot of good points on this.

How many people own a console that is hooked into the internet, that do not own a computer?

I suppose my question is a little pie in the sky. In other words a tad batshit so bare with me...
I pose my question as such that next generation consoles housing a MMOG could potentially have new game play features not available in today's games such as a fully functioning physics engine, with actual hardware support, and a type of systematic geometric deformation. Features like this can potentially create a very fresh feeling game.

but then you end up with something with fairly steep requirements for PC users going against my point...
Imagine if Warhammer actually looked and played like the opening cinematic trailer albeit with a tad less theatrics. Collapsing buildings, breakable geometry, hundreds of visible players/npcs literally swallowing a town and burning it to the ground. Being able to actually see if the dark elf sorceress has real or fake breasts during actual gameplay.....

I suppose that all I am saying is that Eventually the technology curve will lend itself to new design pipelines eventually making concepts like the one above more standard fare. On consoles system requirements are not as important of an issue. On PC not so much so that might actually shoot down what I just said right there.. Have to think about this more. I am really just going with my gut on this right now.

edit: I also realize that the question you responded to did not have this detail. I am posing it to you now.

No. The problem with console MMOs is two-fold. The first is the business modelling stuff I mentioned earlier. The second is the other games.

You can experiment with new PC experiences because the PC is a tool with lots of different functionalities, and is so pervasive you have a much wider reach. Consoles, as proliferate as they are, are just for gamers (and researches I suppose). On a PC, even a crappy MMO a few years ago could be presented as a good time-wasting alternative to just browsing wikipedia, online banking, or IMing friends. On a console though, an MMO has to present itself as a better game than the other games on there.

Yeah I can easily picture someone not wanting to bother with Tabula Rasa because Gears 2 is way more flashy. Honestly the only thing I have to back up my statement is that FFXI, the only multiplatform MMOG I know of right now, has had numerous and valid criticisms about its game play and interface yet the game has had steady 500k subs since even before WOW hit store shelves. I suppose maybe this is only because of the Asian player base. However people claim that a very large chunk of the people who play the game are on a console even the PS2.

I am not entirely sure how strong of a statement this is but I do know FFXI would have died a long time ago had it not at least also released on PS2 as well as PC.

TR would get crushed handly, and rightly. Heck, WoW as it exists right now wouldn't be very fun either with a console controller. Anyone play with a gamepad that could provide insights? I personally can't see how you could effectively manipulate the UI without a full keyboard, but I'm very biased.

I have a buddy of mine who claims to have played WOW with his 360 controller. He was a fairly hardcore player who was doing raids and everything back in the day. I never had the chance to see him play with his controller but at the time he claimed that it wasn't as bad as you might think. I can ask him more details about his experience with it.

I play WOW with mouse + keybard, however I play FFXI with a PS2 controller.
I feel I can safely say that mouse + keyboard will always be slightly superior to a controller however with proper care to the interface you can get it close enough that it doesn't really matter either way.

I think another problem is the reliance on pure statistics in combat that would otherwise be compared to fighting games. Having, say, only five abilities whose outcomes are preordained by statistics mostly would become boring real quick. Unless you added in something like such a robust storyline you lose the direct comparison to the grind-for-grind-sake that is modern PC-based diku MMOs.

So basically, completely change everything and then you have a place to start 

yeah..
I do know that fighting games are more accepted with a controller. And in fighting games it is not necessary for a hot bar to do moves.. but then you completely alienate your PC audience... 
You should be able to keep the hotbars and such, you just access them differently with a controller.

my head hurts.. I feel like I just said a whole bunch of nothing.. My gut is still telling me Tabula Rasa would still be alive right now if it was on every skew but I don't have much else to say about that.

[Venkman]

You said alot. If that didn't give you the headache, this will

Honestly the only thing I have to back up my statement is that FFXI, the only multiplatform MMOG I know of right now

I believe FFXI is the only truly cross-platform MMO (PS2 and PC). SOE also launched Everquest Online Adventures, but specific for the PS2. There's also Phantasy Star Online which had released on a number of different platforms in multiple massively-multiplayer and multiplayer online forms, but I think they're all shut down now.

On FFXI, the PS2 in Japan for a time was like the PC in the U.S., the defacto go-to platform there for more than just gaming. Integration was such that you could play the game on either platform, as long as you were willing to make some HUGE concessions for the UI on the PC. I only played it for a few hours back near-ish launch, but it was absolutely a PS2 title forced onto a PC. I still remember the frustration.

I suspect the reason it doesn't get many complaints is two-fold: it's the only MMO for the far-and-away number-one selling format of that generation, and because most FFXI players play it on the intended platform rather than on PC. I have no numbers to back this up, so it's more a suspicion. It certainly isn't because of its approachability. As you have played it, the PS2 controller is really the only way to play it. I only was able to stomach the time I put into it because Logitech was demo'ing a keyboard that had PS2 controllers on the left and right ends of an otherwise-fullsize one.

As Lantyssa said, it's grind is reknowned and there was for long enough no real solo play. Apparently they've corrected this since. Someone around here still plays it but i don't recall who.

but then you completely alienate your PC audience...

I think what we'll find is that the first truly successful MMO for consoles will be for console gamers first, PC gamers second, if at all. The PC audience is huge but it is based on the way in which PC users use PCs. A console MMO needs to be for console gamers first, as it needs to stand up against console games first.

[TheCastle]

You said alot. If that didn't give you the headache, this will

thanks!

As Lantyssa said, it's grind is reknowned and there was for long enough no real solo play. Apparently they've corrected this since. Someone around here still plays it but i don't recall who.

LOL.. oh crap I am becoming a spokesperson...

but then you completely alienate your PC audience...

I think what we'll find is that the first truly successful MMO for consoles will be for console gamers first, PC gamers second, if at all. The PC audience is huge but it is based on the way in which PC users use PCs. A console MMO needs to be for console gamers first, as it needs to stand up against console games first.

So maybe with that in mind its not such an outlandish idea to think next gen consoles could potentially be valuable real estate for next generation MMOGs provided the games cater to console players first before PC. I can swallow that pill fairly easily. Seems logical.

How about this
What if WOW had new clients for current gen consoles?
I bet you the game would dominate on consoles even in spite of the fact that it was made with PC users in mind first.
What do you think about that?

[Ratman_tf]

but then you completely alienate your PC audience...

I think what we'll find is that the first truly successful MMO for consoles will be for console gamers first, PC gamers second, if at all. The PC audience is huge but it is based on the way in which PC users use PCs. A console MMO needs to be for console gamers first, as it needs to stand up against console games first.

Totally agree. FFXI and Phantasy Star are console oriented MMOGs, and play to console strengths.

Maybe as consoles slowly gain more PCish features (Like the X-Box is trying to do) they might be able to make the jump from PC to console, but it would be easier and more productive to focus on the console side of MMOG gaming first.

[Ratman_tf]

How about this
What if WOW had new clients for current gen consoles?
I bet you the game would dominate on consoles even in spite of the fact that it was made with PC users in mind first.
What do you think about that?

This would require a console that acted more like a PC. Console users have been resistant to that ever since Mattel tried to add a keyboard and make the Intellivision into a home computer. Not impossible, but it's a very real hurdle to WoW taking off on console.

[Oban]

Being able to actually see if the dark elf sorceress has real or fake breasts during actual gameplay.....

If you even for a second doubt they are real and not enhanced, they are fake.

I just saved a dev house at least a million pixels.

[Venkman]

LOL.. oh crap I am becoming a spokesperson...

It's your turn 

How about this
What if WOW had new clients for current gen consoles?

It's a bit of what Ratman said and a bit of the lore. WoW with a new client is still a grindy MMO for the core audience that grew up playing MMOs on PCs. I never played Phantasy Star but I hear that was pretty different. FFXI meanwhile for as successful as it might be (it hit 500k a few years back around when EQ1 was, iirc) is arguably successful because it's grindy but played by a culture that seems to wear that as a badge of honor, the same culture where Lineage could crush EQ1 with subscription numbers in the Far East but barely hold a single populated server when it came to the U.S.

A truly console-centric MMO would be, hrm, I dunno. Someone who's much more an expert on console sensibilities would probably have a smarter opinion. I keep going back to what Fable 2 is trying to do though and see some possibility there.

To your point on XBLA, I think Microsoft definitely has the technology. PS3 would seem to as well. However, it's few the company that can negotiate with these monopolies (in their spaces) to get favorable terms in a more traditional subs-based MMO. Microsoft would need to be willing to cede the end user experience to the MMO publisher entirely while providing the "white label" solution of an integrated billing and account management back end (and probably user communication, something they otherwise did so well on AC2). Maybe we haven't seen a serious try at a diku-style MMO on consoles because the console manufacturers themselves are in the way. There's been articles written on this but they're a few years old at this point.

[TheCastle]

Being able to actually see if the dark elf sorceress has real or fake breasts during actual gameplay.....

If you even for a second doubt they are real and not enhanced, they are fake.

I just saved a dev house at least a million pixels.

One can only imagine the amusing forum arguments this would cause in the future. LOL
"Clearly they are implants!"

[TheCastle]

It's a bit of what Ratman said and a bit of the lore. WoW with a new client is still a grindy MMO for the core audience that grew up playing MMOs on PCs. I never played Phantasy Star but I hear that was pretty different. FFXI meanwhile for as successful as it might be (it hit 500k a few years back around when EQ1 was, iirc) is arguably successful because it's grindy but played by a culture that seems to wear that as a badge of honor, the same culture where Lineage could crush EQ1 with subscription numbers in the Far East but barely hold a single populated server when it came to the U.S.

Well this raises an interesting side point.
I believe that the main defining difference between WOW and FFXI is how the grind is administered. At its very core this is the difference at the heart of both games is questing for xp or not questing for xp and everything that entails.

In short I feel WOW on a console would stomp FFXI on a console hands down.
I feel that a proper MMOG with quest experience points would almost certainly reach new heights.

Microsoft would need to be willing to cede the end user experience to the MMO publisher entirely while providing the "white label" solution of an integrated billing and account management back end (and probably user communication, something they otherwise did so well on AC2). Maybe we haven't seen a serious try at a diku-style MMO on consoles because the console manufacturers themselves are in the way. There's been articles written on this but they're a few years old at this point.

Only thing about this that gets me.
Say you are Sony or Microsoft whatever.
And Blizzard comes to you and says they want to do something.

Who in their right mind would say no?

I suppose all that means is blizzard doesn't want to skew to consoles not so much that they cant.

[Iniquity]

I believe FFXI is the only truly cross-platform MMO (PS2 and PC). SOE also launched Everquest Online Adventures, but specific for the PS2. There's also Phantasy Star Online which had released on a number of different platforms in multiple massively-multiplayer and multiplayer online forms, but I think they're all shut down now.

EQOA still exists, actually!  And, oddly enough, it's tried to go with an evolving storyline through near-monthly patches, similar to what AC1 does (with most likely a similar subscriber count).  The devs still have sob stories on their official forums, though:

Well, we got off to a bit a rocky start during test cycle. We got new QA personnel that slowed us up a bit, and Fan Faire didn't help much either.
And so everyone knows, the only offical thing ever said about when this Update is coming was the post by Elionia that said this week. While we were aiming for Thursday, QA wasn't able to get it cleared in time. And as for anyone saying they talked directly to me at Fan Faire, I only saw one player show up, and the person posting that they spoke to me was not there.

In my attempt to get this update "this week" still, we are pushing to Live tomorrow at 4pm PST. We had to specific permission to do this in order to not have another weekend go by without the update.

This update will see the finale of the Khalimet storyline, that ends in a reward type that, if you all like it enough, will be something that you see more often.

The Broken Blade heads into its finale where you find out who the Unnamed Champion is, and fight to destroy him.

I really do appreciate your patience, and hopefully Razeal and Khalimet will offer many of you something worth getting.

 

 

Oh yeah, I want to mention a bit about Fan Faire. It is too bad that no one came for EQOA this year. The one player that did show up was cool, and we had a good time talking EQOA, among other things.

I know it's hard to justify spending the money to come out, especially after finding out that we lost the conference rooms for the panels due to low registration. I am not sure if it was made clear that there was still plenty of room to hold discussions, which we wer hoping to still have if anyone showed up.

It seems we are caught in this cycle, of you not wanting to spend the time and money to go if SOE is not going to do more to support the game the same way they do the other EQ titles. But I have a hard time convincing them to spend more time and money on EQOA when we only get 5 pre-registers. We could have made up for that with people showing up on Friday or Saturday, but that didn't happen, and they took note of it.

So we are at an impasse. Both sides waiting to see what they other will do before they give their support. Whether I get it from SOE, or from all of you, I'll still be here, and hopefully at the next Fan Faire, even if no one registers.

I hope next time more people show up, but I understand that it is up to us, and me specifically, to give you all a reason to want to come. And for that, I apologize.

 

Thanks everyone.

[Venkman]

Good to know. So it's active enough to support but not so much to create a really core fanbase. Interesting.

Say you are Sony or Microsoft whatever.
And Blizzard comes to you and says they want to do something.

If I'm Sony or Microsoft, the monopoly I have on my platform is entirely because of the title(s) offered for them, the distribution I provide them, and the revenue-share I receive from them. Titles with 10-50 hours of game play designed to be played through once, twice, maybe three times before the player moves onto the next title to consume. Microsoft in particular has taken great strides in making it easier for people to see new titles, experiment/demo, then made it super easy to buy.

Meanwhile, WoW, like other MMOs, is a singular experience. Most fans of MMOs don't bounce between multiple MMOs in one day, or even one month. That's a single title purchase with a 3+ month recurring fee, with so much to consume in that one world that all other games fall by the wayside. At least until the Oct-Dec crush hits and people get distracted.

Sony and Microsoft thrive on a pushing for a year-round business that WoW otherwise sucks players into.

So the problem I think they face is a business one. How can they support single-title immersive MMOs while also ensuring there's a good rotation of marketable new games to throw at players?

Here again I think MS has taken the first steps already. XBLA, GamerScore, Achievements and now Avatars are basically many of the trappings of an MMO without the single-experience persistent virtual world component.

I believe that the main defining difference between WOW and FFXI is how the grind is administered. At its very core this is the difference at the heart of both games is questing for xp or not questing for xp and everything that entails.

I agree. It's this singular quality in fact that separated EQ2 and WoW (and all successor titles) from EQ1 and other titles before it. It was a big step then to shift from gaining XP from grinding and doing it while pursuing tasks. A thin veneer to be sure, but an important enough one to make it not feel nearly as grindy as gaming EQAtlas and Allakhazam.

[TheCastle]

Good to know. So it's active enough to support but not so much to create a really core fanbase. Interesting.

Say you are Sony or Microsoft whatever.
And Blizzard comes to you and says they want to do something.

If I'm Sony or Microsoft, the monopoly I have on my platform is entirely because of the title(s) offered for them, the distribution I provide them, and the revenue-share I receive from them. Titles with 10-50 hours of game play designed to be played through once, twice, maybe three times before the player moves onto the next title to consume. Microsoft in particular has taken great strides in making it easier for people to see new titles, experiment/demo, then made it super easy to buy.

Meanwhile, WoW, like other MMOs, is a singular experience. Most fans of MMOs don't bounce between multiple MMOs in one day, or even one month. That's a single title purchase with a 3+ month recurring fee, with so much to consume in that one world that all other games fall by the wayside. At least until the Oct-Dec crush hits and people get distracted.

Sony and Microsoft thrive on a pushing for a year-round business that WoW otherwise sucks players into.

So the problem I think they face is a business one. How can they support single-title immersive MMOs while also ensuring there's a good rotation of marketable new games to throw at players?

Here again I think MS has taken the first steps already. XBLA, GamerScore, Achievements and now Avatars are basically many of the trappings of an MMO without the single-experience persistent virtual world component.

Damn it that's a good point.. what would happen to the industry as a whole if such a beast was loosed with out restraint or limitation. Available on everything that is capable of running it.
The funny part is that I am being only a tad facetious. LOL... Yes I can certainly see why Sony or Microsoft might say: "don't call us, we'll call you."

I believe that the main defining difference between WOW and FFXI is how the grind is administered. At its very core this is the difference at the heart of both games is questing for xp or not questing for xp and everything that entails.

I agree. It's this singular quality in fact that separated EQ2 and WoW (and all successor titles) from EQ1 and other titles before it. It was a big step then to shift from gaining XP from grinding and doing it while pursuing tasks. A thin veneer to be sure, but an important enough one to make it not feel nearly as grindy as gaming EQAtlas and Allakhazam.

So the amusing part is that I guarantee you Square has no clue as to the actual implications and the nature of the quested xp system they plan to add actually entails. They are planning to dance around a very sensitive aspect about MMOGs in general. In fact possibly one of the most important differences in the genre itself. Oh I wonder how people are going to react. One simply doesn't walk into Mordor!! Sorry I get theatrical when I am being silly..