Fuck level 4's

[Nerf]

What the fuck is wrong with me, I used to solo these things half afk in my raven, now I'm having to warp out 2-4 times per group of mobs.

There has got to be an alternative to the x-large booster+amp+3 hards+t2 LE setup, I know for a fact it's not what I ran before (shitty booster skills) and I don't fucking like it at all.  Someone HALP!

[Nerf]

Also, explain how explosive does more vs. NPC shields than EM.  Seriously, WTF?

[Trigona]

My theory is that missions have become much harder than they ever used to be, in the past month or so.  I think the devs are trying to get the economy going by forcing people to buy ships after they get blown away in a mission.

[Nerf]

First spawn of 2nd room of assault and I warped out with 40% hull.  Thank god for drones that automatically attack the frigs scrambling me when it takes 25 seconds to lock.

Finally finished it after a few hours, brought in a domi pilot from local, who smartbombed phil's drones and got concordokkened.  Total net for the mission - 15mil, 5 ogre ii's, and 4 hammerheads ii's.  I love pilots who leave drones behind.

[Reg]

For as long as I can remember every patch has included something to either make missions harder or make them less rewarding. The CCP devs seem to really resent the fact that some people would prefer to stay in empire and run level 4 missions for a living rather than being out in 0.0 the way we're all supposed to be. It's important to play the game their way and if we don't we must be punished.

[sanctuary]

I run level 4's for Theological Council in an Abaddon. Mega Pulse II's with scorch crystals give me 45 km. Lows are rat specific hardners and heat sinks to fill out. Rigs are 1 trimark armor pump II and 2 CCC II. My resists are better than 80% and with a 1600mm plate have over 20k armour. But I cannot run my large repper indefinitely whilst pew pewing. But such a large passive tank usually gets me the kills and whilst flying to the next pocket or gate I can repair the damage to my armour. It does get hairy, so my next investment is a paladin. Using EFT I can fit with the same mods (only 4 guns though) and can pew pew and rep indefintely and do slightly less damage than with the abaddon. I doubt very much whether an Amarr ship is worthwhile for missions with any faction other than Amarr. Sansha's ftw.

[Merusk]

For as long as I can remember every patch has included something to either make missions harder or make them less rewarding. The CCP devs seem to really resent the fact that some people would prefer to stay in empire and run level 4 missions for a living rather than being out in 0.0 the way we're all supposed to be. It's important to play the game their way and if we don't we must be punished.

This.

The same is true of L3's I used to run in my Battlecruiser.  They got a LOT harder and a LOT less rewarding in my time away.  Running them out of the .4 system I used to use I would get 1.2 mil bonuses and payouts on a regular basis and a lot more loot modules than have been dropping.  I know the party line is "well they lowered rewards to account for salvage" but this is bullshit.  Even salvaging every wreck I still come away at about 80% of what I used to haul in for missions that are a LOT tougher than they once were.

CCP has hinted several times in the past that they dislike mission runners and think of 0.0 as the "real" game.  They know they can't just wipe out all profitability of living in Empire, however, as that's where the bulk of the economy's driving force is.  That 2/3 of the population goes away, then there's a lot of 0.0 pilots wondering why they can't get ships/ modules the way they used to.

The game suffers from "Visionitis" as much as any other, the devs just are a lot quieter about it.

[cmlancas]

It's just baffling. Why fuck with something that isn't really broken? 

[Slayerik]

qq

Your carebear tears amuse me. ;)

Its just risk vrs reward, plain and simple.

[LC]

Try out some of the raven setups on the shinra killboard. http://kb.snra.us

My cerberus can solo level 4s.

[Slayerik]

Hey LC, whats Shinra's story these days anyways?

[lac]

Apparently they are killing mission runners in high sec 

[bhodi]

Also, a good Named XL-SB. That made ALL the difference in the world.

[lac]

Those dirt cheap shield hardener rigs seem pretty popular too.

[bhodi]

Generally you use 3 CCC rigs on a raven. It's cap is shit.

Come on nerf, I did this with 2 million SP. Don't let me down! You can see my build: http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=154 (Replace the AB with a hardener, I was using the AB to try and get in range of that awful 2.5m spawn) Aso, this.

[LC]

Hey LC, whats Shinra's story these days anyways?

We are in the planning/waiting/recruiting phase. Raising corp funds, and just enjoying our freedom.

[LC]

wrong button...

[LC]

Generally you use 3 CCC rigs on a raven. It's cap is shit.

Come on nerf, I did this with 2 million SP. Don't let me down! You can see my build: http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=154 (Replace the AB with a hardener, I was using the AB to try and get in range of that awful 2.5m spawn) Aso, this.

Plain tech 1 stuff fitted? Talk to me next time you are in game. I have named junk everywhere I dont bother selling.

[Kamen]

Level 4's being harder than they used to be isn't a result of CCP hating empire dwellers, it's a result of them being exactly what you said they were - stupidly easy to solo.

The reward for doing them is pretty damn good for beginning/intermediate players, and they are still easy to do as long as you set up a racial specific tank.

[Reg]

qq

Your carebear tears amuse me. ;)

Its just risk vrs reward, plain and simple.

Why don't you tell us all about the huge risks you take suicide ganking transports in high sec?

[Murgos]

Actually, what I think they are doing is trying to make some l3 and l4 missions more small group oriented.  Either you run them in a superbly fitted out/skilled top end rig solo or you get a buddy.  They essentially wimped the mission system with the T2 ships and mods and I think they are trying to counter that, I've seen people on eve-o saying that even l5's are too easy and they need to go make l6s, 7s and 8s and that way probably lies serious mudflation.

How does it work with mission payouts now?  Can everyone in the gang get the payout and the bonus or just one person?  If they really want this change in direction they need to make it worthwhile for each person and seamless as well as putting in mechanism that reward cooperation.

Then there is all the effort they put into exploration, I've seen reports of people pulling Billions out of 0.0 escalating combat explorations but I don't know that people are really organized and doing them consistently.

[Simond]

CCP should just remove L4s (and probably L3s) from highsec completely if they're that concerned about Empire mission farming. Drop the Empire-faction (+ misc. like Interbus, etc) missions into lowsec, and leave the pirate missions where they are.

[bhodi]

How does it work with mission payouts now?  Can everyone in the gang get the payout and the bonus or just one person?  If they really want this change in direction they need to make it worthwhile for each person and seamless as well as putting in mechanism that reward cooperation.

All bounties are split between people who are in-fleet and on-grid at the time of mob death. (I believe; I need to double-check this one, in-system might be all you need)
All mission payouts (and mission completion time bonuses) are split between people who are in-system and in-fleet at the time of mission turnin if you use the "My fleet and I (max 5 persons) have completed the mission.
All corp and faction gains are given for each person individually, the same as mission payouts, but they are NOT split.

That means that if you are grinding for reputation, you can go faster if you do it in a group (even if you are running different missions) since you get full rep per person per turnin.

The other advantage is although you still have the 'warping to mission' delay, you kill mobs more than twice as fast with two people, especially if you are in L4s. This is due to the amount of damage NPC battleships "soak" per round; putting only double the DPS on the target can kill it 3-4 times as fast, thus you have greater efficiency if you coordinate and focus fire than if you have 2 people doing missions alone.

I'm curious to try L4s with maybe me nerf and a few other people in BCs and destroyers as frig killers and see if the time/reward payout is there.

I also have access to L5s we could try. I've been looking here and I think 2 BSes and one or two additional frig killers should be able to beat them. People are soloing then in nighthawks and such. From the way it's structured, they seem to assume you want to have the option of flying carriers and other capships in to help.

[Merusk]

CCP should just remove L4s (and probably L3s) from highsec completely if they're that concerned about Empire mission farming. Drop the Empire-faction (+ misc. like Interbus, etc) missions into lowsec, and leave the pirate missions where they are.

They did that once before, when Empire space was WAYYY to fucking crowded.  (not all, but some) Something like 3 years ago when I first started, because I recall reading people bitching about it.  Ditto with the movement of higher level ores to spawn more in lower-sec.

[lac]

Actually, what I think they are doing is trying to make some l3 and l4 missions more small group oriented

I read somewhere they are planning a remake of the grouping/reward mechanisms to promote grouping on missions. L4 missions were initially intended to be small group content. Once they implement this they'll probably up their pace in making missions harder.

Then there is all the effort they put into exploration, I've seen reports of people pulling Billions out of 0.0 escalating combat explorations but I don't know that people are really organized and doing them consistently.

They are, DED complexes have been moved into exploration as wel. DED7 and higher spawn randomly in the same constellation the static complexes were in, so people have an idea were to scan but run into other exploration content too. Since the last buff to exploration escalating combat missions feature one faction spawn every step, combined with a 30+ million faction rat that drops multiple faction items when you get a 'good' ending, 0.0 exploration can be very profitable. 0.0 exploration is mostly small gang stuff (some of it requires an insane tank, structures firing 40k damage torpedoes and other exotic stuff).

[amiable]

Why don't you tell us all about the huge risks you take suicide ganking transports in high sec?

I think slayer was kidding.

I still think missions are crazy profitable, even with the nerfs.  

0.0 would be a lot more populated if it wasn't so hard to move around solo.  Sure you might be able to Rat in some forgotten corner of 0.0 as an individual but:

A.  How the heck do you get your loot back to sell?
B.  How the heck do you replace your ship when it gets blown up?

Obviously this is much less of an issue if you join a good corp, but to be honest, is there enough space and enough people dedicated to logistics if everyon decided to head out to 0.0?  Probably not...

Worse is low-sec, which ratting/mining in is just completely suicidal (because you can't secure space).  They need to really examine the risk reward ratio of that place...

[Kamen]

CCP should just remove L4s (and probably L3s) from highsec completely if they're that concerned about Empire mission farming. Drop the Empire-faction (+ misc. like Interbus, etc) missions into lowsec, and leave the pirate missions where they are.

That's exactly the point, CCP isn't that concerned about Empire mission farming of level 4's.  It needed, and received, some small tweaks to counter how stupidly easy they had become for intermediate players to solo.

Level 4's were intended to be a group oriented type of mission.  Advanced/intermediate players were always able to solo them, which was fine, but after a while barely intermediate players were soloing them blindfolded.  All the recent changes to them have done is move it back to easily soloable.  No big deal.

[Teleku]

This game is fun DESPITE CCP, I've always felt.

But yeah, even with my skills up pretty high now, there are a number of L4's I have to warp in and out of constantly.  Takes a long as time to complete many of them.  Once I have my faction up (in the 3 different damn corps I'm grinding faction with) and some extra cash, I'll probably be moving on to other money making methods, but still, it's kind of annoying they seem to hate the player base so much.

And moving missions to low sec only would be the death of the game.  Mass sub canceling.  Mission running in any low sec is an abomination and retarded.  Only way that would work is if they remove scan probing from anything above 0.0 space, and made the sentry guns at gates and stations actually kill people.

[ajax34i]

I don't think they can do anything about risk/reward ratios when the reward is controlled by some PVE formula, and the risk is controlled by players (PVP). 

Well, actually, they can, but I think they're afraid to put so much reward into missions that if you have, let's say, 60 mission runners running constantly, and 30 pirates ganking them constantly and taking their ships and loot, that the mission runners end up still making more profit than doing missions in empire currently.  I mean, one mission would have to give enough loot to cover the loss of 3-4 CNR's + officer fittings AND profit on top of that, compared to what you get from L4 high sec agents.  They're not gonna do that.

They'll probably move the agents the hell out of Empire once they start the factional warfare stuff; I expect the Empires will re-structure themselves at that point.  Maybe CCP will even introduce some sort of dynamic solar system sec rating, so that the Empires can grow or shrink, or roam over the map (slowly of course) as the faction wars go on.  The sovereignty system that they have for players, they could adapt that to Empires, except instead of Outposts the Empire would have to cultivate and populate planets, and if the planet gets nuked and dies off, well, repercussions.  I'm sure they're looking to generate all sorts of missions that mix PvP and PvE in some sort of attack/defense patterns.

In any case, the loss of high sec agents will directly translate into a loss of playerbase.  A majority of the EVE players are looking for PVE, and they'll lose those people.

[LC]

To be honest I haven't noticed any difference in l4 missions. I have only run them for sec status gains recently.

[Simond]

And moving missions to low sec only would be the death of the game.  Mass sub canceling.  Mission running in any low sec is an abomination and retarded.  Only way that would work is if they remove scan probing from anything above 0.0 space, and made the sentry guns at gates and stations actually kill people.

I never said that it was a good idea, just that if CCP sees low-risk Empire missioning as an issue that there's an obvious solution. 

[Slayerik]

qq

Your carebear tears amuse me. ;)

Its just risk vrs reward, plain and simple.

Why don't you tell us all about the huge risks you take suicide ganking transports in high sec?

I'd probably make similar cash grinding missions for as much time as I spend scanning things. My risk =

Loot thieves
Loot exploding
Sec status problems, thus causing me to risk it out in 0.0 to raise it (and make money)
Not doing enough damage, attacking a ship that is tanked better than most or has active hardeners
Someone popping the wreck

Since I have moved up to doing it with friends, and us using battleships (and me funding more than half the venture) I am indeed taking a risk, so don't talk shit about stuff you dont understand. I understand Lvl IV missions just fine so I can talk shit about them.

If you think it is a big walk in the park you are mistaken.  


Sorry you take offence to the carebear comment, but if you want to make good money you could just goto venal and find a spot and rat your ass off, warping to a safe when someone enters local or cloaking/logoffski - but wait...there is risk getting there and risk staying alive

[Reg]

Sorry you take offence to the carebear comment, but if you want to make good money you could just goto venal and find a spot and rat your ass off, warping to a safe when someone enters local or cloaking/logoffski - but wait...there is risk getting there and risk staying alive

I find it amusing that you consider getting your internet spaceship blown up to be "risk" in the first place. And I'm way past being insulted when some relic from pre-Trammel UO calls me a carebear.

It's just seems a shame that people like you can't let others play the game the way they want to play it.

[Slayerik]

Jeez, carebears are easy to land. The ;) didn't even slow you down!

EDIT: Also, if it wasn't risky to you how come you aren't out doing it? Is it because the enjoyment of Level 4 missions? Cause, if you enjoyed it I'd understand. If not, you are scared to take the RISK of losing your ship...plain and simple.

[Slayerik]

Anyways, to each is own...i'll stop trying to force you into my game. That is unless you are an afk dumbass with a lot of loot. Then you are fucked.