new to EVE: thoughts, questions

[Yegolev]

I (or anyone since I donated the BPO to the corp) can manufacture Hobgoblin I drones in Neesher if they are needed.  It isn't researched at all, but it's stuck in the corp hangar so someone else will have to get on that.

[Hoax]

There are 20 warrior drones in Arzi hanger, if anyone needs them (light-explosive).

[Megrim]

No wrecking shots with missiles. Also get ships that can outrun missiles in PVP.

Also no whiffs with missiles, and ships/pilots that can outrun a +100% velocity missile (7500mps) can't be a dime-a-dozen.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it's likely more a problem with the lower dps of missiles and the inability to maintain the safe range needed to make that lower dps effective.

But, I've done no fleet battles, so wtf do I know anyways? heh.

Ooooh i don't know about that dude. My Rifter (or, when i buy another one to replace the one that asploded) when kitted out for speed can hit about 5 k/s with MWDs. I would hate to see just how fast an interceptor can go, with named MWD and some good mods.


* Edit:

Also, i've been told that while Defenders are pretty crap at ranges we normally engage at (i.e. 50k +/-), with the proper skill ups and longer ranges, they actually CAN intercept incoming missiles pretty well.

[Polysorbate80]

In the other thread, Mahrin placed high-end 'ceptors at 7k-ish with a full set of skills and mods; I don't think a lot of people will invest the time and money in that for casual PvP.  I'm not saying you won't find them out there, just probably not cruising through your favorite star system at any given moment.

[MahrinSkel]

If you really went all-out, you could probably hit 10K with high skills in an interceptor.  But nobody in their right mind PvP's with 200M in faction modules on their 20M isk ship.

--Dave

[JoeTF]

If you really went all-out, you could probably hit 10K with high skills in an interceptor.  But nobody in their right mind PvP's with 200M in faction modules on their 20M isk ship.

--Dave

QFE.

It's fascinating to hear, that after all the nerfs, people still see misilles being overpowered. Heh, they were overpowered when you could equip cruise misilles on frigs (when 5 ceptors meet 5 BS, and the ceptors won:P).
Main reason for their fleetbattle suckines(besides damage) is time:target in question will be long warped away or blown up before misilles hit him. someone mentioned 13 secs - It's WAY better to blow the guy with guns 13 before misilles would hit him. That, and having 600 torps on screen doesn't really help the framerates.

[Merusk]

People feel missiles are overpowered because in 1v1 or the harassing that's been going on missiles are indeed powerful.  They are equaly effective at all ranges, always hit, and hurt a LOT.  It's easir to take-down an opponent with missiles than with guns so long as you stay either out of range, or within the effective radius of his turret tracking. 

Crits from guns happen infrequently at best, so calling that 'balance' in 1on1 is laughable.  Yes, guns have the advantage in fleet battles.  If CCP is going to balance around fleet battles, then more incentives to gang-up need to be put into place in the early game.  Teach folks that running around solo isn't an option in Empire, and they'll complain less as they move out of it. 

Part of the problem is you vets/ 0.0 folks are talking about a completly different game than 2/3 of the playerbase sees or experiences.

[Strazos]

Ooooh i don't know about that dude. My Rifter (or, when i buy another one to replace the one that asploded) when kitted out for speed can hit about 5 k/s with MWDs. I would hate to see just how fast an interceptor can go, with named MWD and some good mods.

With some skills, that's still not outrunning heavy missiles, especially if they're fired from a Caracal (and possibly a Raven, I don't know the bonuses offhand).

And about staying out of range when using missiles...doesn't that hold true for anyone using long-range projectile cannons, railguns, or lasers also? The range on equal-sized railgun and howitzer, when compared to heavy and cruise missile turrets, is comparable (projectile hits from a bit further I think).

[Murgos]

Your comparing optimal range.  Guns can still hit outside optimal; does anyone know if falloff is linear or exponential?  Once a missile is out of juice it's done.

[Alkiera]

Crits from guns happen infrequently at best, so calling that 'balance' in 1on1 is laughable.

I read quite a few threads on the topic of turret accuracy/damage... crits(x3 damage) seem to occur right around 0.8-0.9% of the time.  The other types of hits, which vary from 0.5 to 1.5 times the base weapon damage, seem to have an even spread at optimal and less range, which then slides down as the target is farther out. (i.e. you stop being able to get the 1.5x dmg hits out past a certain range.)

All that said, last I played I was in a Kestrel, and I liked me some missiles.  If I get back into the game at some point(only so much gaming time, and spending a LOT(15+ hrs/wk) of it on PnP(Multiplayer Real-Life Games))   I'd prolly head towards the Caracal style cruisers, keeping with the missile boats.  Seems to work well with the Caldari sheild-tank style, too.

Alkiera

[Alkiera]

Your comparing optimal range.  Guns can still hit outside optimal; does anyone know if falloff is linear or exponential?  Once a missile is out of juice it's done.

Falloff is to 50% accuracy at optimal+falloff range, and 3% accuracy at optimal+2xfalloff.  Whether the curve is linear or exponential, I don't know... but it sounds pretty linear to me from that.

Alkiera

[Merusk]

And about staying out of range when using missiles...doesn't that hold true for anyone using long-range projectile cannons, railguns, or lasers also? The range on equal-sized railgun and howitzer, when compared to heavy and cruise missile turrets, is comparable (projectile hits from a bit further I think).

The difference is long-range guns have slower tracking speeds so they have a harder time hitting closer objects.  You don't try and stay "out of range" of long-range gunsif you're using missiles. You get in close and 'underneath' them where only 1 out of 3 shots hit you.

[Polysorbate80]

Yeah, my whole "stay out of gun range bit" was based on a horribly faulty assumption, that big guns couldn't range that far.  Such is not the case :P

So, you would have to get in close...where you're in scramble/web range, in an already probably slow boat.  Not an ideal scenario.  At least you don't have long flight times to contend with, if you can get there and not get wasted on the way.

[Mr_PeaCH]

Your comparing optimal range.  Guns can still hit outside optimal; does anyone know if falloff is linear or exponential?  Once a missile is out of juice it's done.

Falloff is to 50% accuracy at optimal+falloff range, and 3% accuracy at optimal+2xfalloff.  Whether the curve is linear or exponential, I don't know... but it sounds pretty linear to me from that.

Alkiera

Newb giving advice alert:   :-D  But the tracking guide tutorial covers this stuff pretty well I think.    http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp

[dwindlehop]

The curve is approximately linear in the middle of the range, but not linear near the edge of the falloff range. I plugged in some numbers from the item database into the tracking guide yesterday and took screenshots.


(All these numbers are without skill or ship bonuses, but with ammo bonuses.)

The non-linearity only really matters if the turret has a very large falloff range like projectiles.

I also tried graphing the damage versus some ideal shields and armor, again without skill, ship, or other module bonuses. The hybrid doesn't ever exceed the damage of lasers or projectiles at any range without resistances, but with these generic resistances the hybrid is best versus shields between 43-50km.

http://jonathan.pearce.name/armor.gif
http://jonathan.pearce.name/shield.gif

[Murgos]

It interesting to see how much of a factor the larger falloff value for weapon A makes on long distance gunnery accuracy.  At ranges greater than 55km it looks like weapon A exceeds all the others at accuracy even though it has the most minimal optimal range (of the ones shown on the graph).  I'm not sure if the vs armor and shield graphs show anything unexpected.  I'm not familiar enough with Eve yet to know if these are all typical weapon load outs for a certain class of ship (Cruiser?).

[Alkiera]

Look like Cruiser guns, yes.  A is projectile, B is Hybrid, and C is a Laser turret.  And yeah, that thing and the following threads on it are where I got my info.

Alkiera