f13.net

According to several german gaming rags, gears of war will not be released in germany due to its violent content and gory graphical representations.

The USK (the german equivalent of the ESRB) refused to grant Gears of War an 18+ rating, citing the "gory and too realistic gameplay" as a reaon. This means that the game is even deemed to be unsuitable for adults. This is in accordance with german law which outlaws all games, films or other media that glamorize violence. The game may therefore not be sold in germany.

As a side note: import versions of the game will not run on a german X-BOX 360. Microsoft has altered the firmware of the X-Box so that games without a USK rating will not run. The publisher staterd that they would not offer a "modified" version of Gears of War for german customers because it would "severely alter the play experience".

Microsoft loses the strongest system seller for the christmas season in germany.

Heh. Too easy.

On a more serious note, how much of Europe does Germany count for - gaming population-wise? 10%? 15%? 5%?

Couldn't you buy an X-Box 360 and the games from Austria since we don't have USK ratings and therefore no modified X-Boxes.

Seems like that'd be a big pain in the ass, though.  Every time you get a hankering for a game you have to order online from an Austrian outlet?  That'd be like me having to go to Amazon Canada to buy every game.  It's an untenable situation.

Oh, and you guys remember my constant harping about the nanny state over in the politics threads?  This is a good example of it.

Gulp, your avatar is freaking me out more than Germany's transparent attempt to pretend the holocaust was yesterday.

What, your dog's never licked a little pussy?

No. No, man. Shit, no, man.

Yes, it actually is.  If only you used it as an example rather than some of the lesser wierd ones you come out with.

Unsuitable for Adults.  For fuck's sake.  As for realistic gameplay, I seem to remember a trailer with a massive multi-eyed spider-God.  Exactly how realistic is that ?  Because I'm now worried there's one under the house...

You mean like telling grown ups who own businesses that they can't allow smoking in those businesses?  Seems to me that forbidding adults to indulge in certain legal activities, whether it be smoking or gaming comes down to the same thing.

However, since I don't want this thread to be either denned or slapped into politics that's the last I'll comment on it.

 :roll:

You are right, lets not delve into politics here. I laughed about those German laws when they banned Wolfenstein (because killing Nazis seems to be the same as wanting to be Nazis), and I laugh at those laws now decades later.

Suffice to say my multi-eyed spider-God takes offense by you calling her unrealistic Ironwood. Prepare to get eaten!

Hey, I'm not ever going to cheapen the holocaust and if Germany wants to ban Nazi symbols and whatnot, that's up to them.  But banning a computer game EVEN TO ADULTS for realistic depictions of violence is just mental.  Do they honestly think that they're more prone as a nation to outright acts of hostility ?  Is it likely that Gears of War will somehow convince Gamers to invade Poland ??

I'm a little confused.

Can't wait to see how they'll handle Holodeck legislation.  :)


And now, after reading Tebonas, even more scared of the spider-god under the house.

They removed Nazi symbols from Indiana Jones, INDIANA JONES. Because that was a regular Nazi propaganda piece  :roll:

Yeah, but you can't really make one rule for one and then bend it for another.

It's not like ANY of the games depicting Nazi's were making them out to be Sterling Chaps, is it ?

Seems to me that this is really juvenile.  It'd be like us passing a law where you can't make movies showing 19th century Americans slaughtering indians or enslaving blacks, even if they're obviously depicted as the bad guys.  It must be bizarre watching a movie like Raiders or Last Crusade where you know the bad guys are Nazis, and yet no Nazi regalia is shown.  It'd stick out just for it's absence.

Oh but you can. You just have to ban the glorifying of the Third Reich. Like we did, problem solved. I still can drive that chainsaw through Robohitler (or was it a knife in Wolfenstein? Its been sooo long).

Truth be told it confuses most of the adult gamers or film fanatics as well. There are currently three different levels.

1. Things that have an USK/FSK rating. The FSK (freiwillige Selbstkontrolle der Filmwirtschaft) is the movie equivalent of the USK (Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle). They both have mostly the same responsibilities as the ESRP or the MPRR, Both are indrustry associations that rate every film/game that is published/shown in germany. The rating has several implications for sellers/theater owners.

People of a lower age than that mentioned on the rating are not allowed to buy that game/watch that film and the owner may face high fines if he does not heed those rules. There are also restrictions on advertisements for certain ratings. An adult only game or movie for example may not be advertised in the media. As a side effect gaming magazines do not report about such games because a preview or review is routinely thought of as advertisement for that game and the whole print run may be confiscated. (Don't laugh this has happened in the past.)

The FSK/USK has the following ratings

Suitable for all ages
Suitable for ages 6 or above
Suitable for ages 12 or above
Suitable for ages 16 or above
Adults only (18+)

2. If the USK/FSK refuse to grant a game/movie the adult only rating it is "unrated". Unrated material may be sold to adults in germany but unrated material faces more severe restrictions.

The game/movie may not be advertised in any form or by any means. The game/movie may not be made accessible to minors in any form. That means that it may not be on display in a store and it may not be sold via internet or mail order because age verification there is difficult or impossible. The german legislature does not acknowledge any form of online age verification as a legal way because as long as minors live in the same house as you they might pick it up from your mail box without you realizing it. (Yes a german court actually used that as a justification for ruling that online age verification is not suitable).

Games or movies that are "not rated" may not even be imported from abroad because that is also illegal and you may face up to Eur 50.000 in fines or a one year prison sentence. (This law is illegal by the way because it infringes on the principle of free trade in the european union but nobody has challenged it until now)

So this is effectively a sales ban because no big retailer will pick up a game that is "not rated" and nobody would be allowed to import such games/movies anyway (a nice catch 22 by the way). Online resellers like play or cdwow refuse to sell games or movies to german residents because of that.

3. If a game/movie depicts scenes that are deemed to brutal or otherwise harmful (some forms of BDSM or violent pornography, all things neonazi etc.) they can be banned entirely although this can only happen by request. If a movie/game faced a ban then you may not own or sell it in any way.

This happens not very often but popular examples include: the uncut version of from dusk till dawn, bad taste, braindead, Wolfenstein 3D and countless others.

The depiction of nazi symbols is illegal in germany, except for documentation purposes or in historical documents. Movies count usually as "for documentation purposes" but if the Nazis are only used for comedic relief or for entertainment purposes that might not be the case.

So Schindler's List is OK, Hogan's Heroes is not.

Now I'm confused as well. I remember seeing Hogans Heroes on German television. Did the cut all things Nazi out? Its been some years since I saw it.

No, the import of unrated games is illegal and you can face fines of up to Eur 50.000 or one year in prison. Usually the german customs just confiscate the things when they catch them. Two years ago I lost Eur 150 in movies to the german customs officials because they seized my copy of the first season of 24 and several movies.

This practice is illegal because it infringes on the policy of free trade in the EU but so far nobody has challenged that in court. But the german customs have the inofficial order to no longer confiscate anything that not commercially imported. But some online retailers still refuse to sell to german residents.

Well not all things Nazi are illegal just certain symbols like the Swastika or the SS-Runes.

Wow, thats just wow. I have several German friends that regulary order online from here and therefore assumed it was legal. The longer I listen to you the more I realize how retarded that really is. No wonder so many of you move over here :)

So...if you lived close to the German border, could you simply drive over and into a nearby town with a gaming store and buy whatever you want to get around the law?

Incindently one of the largest Austrian gaming stores is in Salzburg, which is (I think) under 5 miles from the German border. And we usually don't control each others citizens that much (if even) when crossing our respective borders. Yes, now it dawns on you as well how stupid that law really is!

Especially for tebonas a link to the german wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indizierung. You can go from there. Naturally there is no english material on the subject and I am too lazy to translate it.

*blink*

...

What ?

Everything that doesn't sport an USK/FSK label is treated as being unrated. Unrated material may not be imported into germany (that would be a felony). So german customs has the legal power to confiscate those things. If I buy the UK version of 24 or disney's little mermaid for example both would be treated as unrated. They might have a UK BBFC rating and that rating might even be "Universal" (as in: suitable for all ages) but according to german law it would still have to be treated as being "unrated" because no german authority has rated that particular version of the movie.

This would even be the case if there is a german version of the same movie that had already been rated by the german FSK. So if I buy the UK version of my little mermaid for example it would be illegal even though the german version and the UK version are exactly identical (except for the cover text being in english or german) they have the same bonus features and the same set of languages but one does have an FSK-logo and the other does not so one of them is treated as "suitable for all ages" and the other one as "not rated" therefore "adult only".

This is in violation of european law because it infringes on the principle of free trade of goods and services among member states but so far no one has challenged that law in court. German customs has the inofficial instruction to no longer seize unrated material because several german residents have already sued the german state exactly because of that law but they have the legal power to do so.

Not that this would be the first time that customs authorities have exceeded their authority within EU countries.

(UK customs are also espeicially fond of reversing the burden of proof, or just deciding that more than X bottles of wine can't possibly be for personal use etc)

It is depressing how keen European governments are to dismantle the single market while it remains the one and only positive achievement of endless EU treaties.


Yes, and people often do all across Europe, for instance people living near London often avoid buying cigarettes and alcohol locally when France is 90 minutes away, and of course plenty of people get around any number of laws by visiting Amsterdam. Though this is really no different to the daily traffic across the US/Mexican border, or indeed the daily traffic out-of/in-to whatever-US-State-you-live-in to avoid sales tax.

Sorry, Jeff, I've understood everything you've said in this thread and I'm 100% sure everything you say is true.

It's just that I find it completely and totally baffling.

:)

How does a country with a law like that manage to have so many fucking "counterstrike" and "day of defeat" players?

Pent up aggression I guess.

That, and the fact that customs jobsworths don't inspect international downloads.

That's a good point :  How does Steam get regulated ?

Lets not pretend for a moment that Germany's laws about this are about morality. Its simply protectionism of the worst kind.

Its partly about money, there you are right. But German developers don't have an advantage. They have exactly the same problems. They have to pay the money (around 1000 Euro i think) to get a rating as well.

Seems silly.  Comparing it to cigarettes even sillier.  You can't blow imaginary pixel violence in someone's face and last I knew Castle Wolfenstein wasn't a cause of SIDS.
I didn't lose my dad and my favorite aunt last year to the early works of Peter Jackson.

Although you must concede that Hobbit porn is dangerous.

The forum gods could not have timed that page break better. Genius.

Trippy works in mysterious ways.

Well there was a school shooting last week. An 18 year old pupil, armed with two pump-action shotguns and severeal self-made explosives went to his school and shot 12 people mined the school with the explosives and killed himself when the SWAT team went in to get him.

That man was a complete gun nut. There are pictures on the internet showing him in dark clothes, trenchcoat and posing with several firearms. He was very active on several of the more partisan gun sites, he was discussing recipies for several explosives. He even published his suicide letter on the internet and not even on the official World of Warcraft boards have I found anything more crazy than what he wrote.

This was a person who should be in closed therapy. He was actively discussing both suicide and the amok run in detail on the internet and in discussions with friends, teachers and his relatives for months if not for years, he was showing signs of extreme paranoia, persecition mania and shizophrenia.

He had several firearms including two pump action shotguns, a glock, several hunting rifles etc. which he bought on the internet. That alone should not have been possible in germany because we have very strict gun laws and he should not have been able to own any of the guns.

So in short:

The man was most probably very disturbed and crazy and should have been treated in a mental hospital
He had the ability to buy guns over the internet although that should be impossible and he was not allowed to own guns
Both parents, relatives, teachers and friends had known about his delusions and his plans for a killing beforehand and did nothing because "they thought he was joking"

A clear case one should think and his mental condition should be explanation enough of why he did such a despicable act.

But he was also a gamer. He played counterstrike and other first person shooters.

So the only thing that tv, newspapers and radio programmes were discussing last week was whether killer games (the term coined for fps in germany) made him do it. Politicians are discussing a complete ban on all "killer games" and brutal movies because they think that they negatively influence the youth (without knowing what they mean when they mention killer games). Televission stations (even public television which usually is rather neutral and well informed) are doing specials on the "violent youth culture" and the bad influence of "brutal movies and killer games", talk shows are held where people are discussing whether killer games are bad for our youth, in that talk shows nobody has invited any guest that might say something positive on the subject.

So the man had access to firearms, which he shouldn't have, he was crazy and people ignored it but nobody is discussing how it can be possible for him to own guns or why everybody and his dog ignored his fragile condition. All they talk about is the bad influence of computer games. movies and the internet on today's youth.

That is the explanation as to why we have such laws. Most people think that violent movies, violent videogames and pornographic material can actually influence kids or adolescents and make them violent psychopaths that kill everything in sight. While I agree with the notion that games like gears of war or doom 3 is not suitable for kids the legislation concerning such media is completely over the top because it not only stops children from getting and owning those things but also adults.

If a game is not rated then no big retailer will order it because they would only be able to offer it under the counter. Realistically the retailer would need a seperate "adults only" department with a seperate entrance and seperate sales personnel, where minors don't have access. Unrated material may not be made accessible to minors in any form so if I buy something and on my way to the counter a minor can see the cover of the movie or game it would already be illegal.

Mail order is not possible because sending unrated material via mail is also not allowed a minor might steal it from your mailbox or something, so the only way to get unrated material is by breaking the law (ordering it from abroad) or buying it in speciality stores and they are operating in a gray area because the only way to be strictly legal would be to have a seperate "adults only" part of the store, where minors don't have access. german courts have ruled nearly every age verification method as being unsuitable because you still cannot guarantee that a minor might get access to the unrated material (either by faking, stealinmg your account data or simply stealing it from your mailbox). I can verify that I am adult by I cannot guarantee that no minor has access to my mail or my online download account.

So effectively by restricting access to minors in that strict form most adults lose access to that media also

"A kid could break into the mailbox" is one of the most inane reason for a law I ever heard. So it would be my problem if my neighbours kid is a thief? The law has to provide for that possibility? Guess I shouldn't have alcohol in my cupboard either. A kid could break my living room window and get drunkon my couch!

It's inane but has been used by a german judge to kill the online age verification scheme of an online video rental service.

The law for the protection of minors ("Jugendschutzgesetz") states that unrated material or material with a rating of "adult only" may not be sent per mail because the retailer cannot verify if the purchaser is an adult or not. The law was introduced long before the internet was invented, and computer games or splatter movies came into fashion, it's meaning was to prevent porn distributors from sending pornographic material to minors (and probably to prevent them from sending porn to anybody this being the fifties).

This meant that until a few years ago online or mail order retailers for games or movies only had things up to a rating of "suitable for ages 16 or above". With the advent of the internet and some modifications to the law online retailers extended their stock to include everything that was rated as "adult only" but people had to proof that they were of adult age before they could order anything. With automatic shop systems and user accounts it was no problem to restrict the online "adult only" section to only those people that had proof to be adults, so every part of the law was heeded. Minors weren't able to see anything concerning adult material (because the webserver wouldn't give them the relevant pages) and adults would still be able to rent/buy those things provided that they could proof that they were adults in the first place.

Then the first online video rental services came up. They did essentially the same, they had an "adult" section that could only be accessed by people that were verified to be adults. How that verification was done was different from site to site.

Some wanted a copy of your ID card per Fax or E-Mail.
Some wanted you to enter your Passport-ID Number (the age and date of birth is encoded into it)
The most popular service was something called PostIdent (Identification per Mail). The service sent you a form via snail mail, you would fill out the form and then you would head to the nearest post office were you had to give the post office workers that form and show them your ID. They could then ascertain that you are you and that you are of adult age and would certify that by signature and official stamp and would then send the form back to the retailer. The post office charges Eur 20 for that age verification service.

The retailer then could send you stuff via mail because he knew that the receiver was an adult person. Unfortunately the court doesn't see it that way. In a dispute between two online dvd rental services, the court ruled against all the age verification schemes mentioned above. He argued that all the age verification schemes can only ascertain that the purchaser is adult and even that might not be so sure because the user account and/or password might be known to kids living in the same household. They can however not ascertain whether the recipient of the package is adult. The mailman is allowed to give a package to other persons than the recipient or he might just put it in a mailbox where other persons than the intended recipient might take it without the knowledge of that person.

He ruled that the only legal way to send packages was as registered mail because when the package is sent as registered mail only the intended recipient is allowed to get it and he has to be present when the package is delivered.

This killed online video rental of adult material because a letter sent via registered mail costs up to $5 which they then would have to charge from the customers.

So nowadays most online stores do not offer adult only material (which would include things like reservoir dogs or from dusk till dawn or nearly everything by Chan-wook Park) because they don't like the hassle and those that do have to verify via PostIdent that the customer is an adult and need to sent everything via registered mail.