Mass Effect 3

[Margalis]

I think Mass Effect, Fallout 3/New Vegas, Vampire: Bloodlines, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution all strike a good mix between action and RPG, and I'd much prefer to play more of those kinds of games than stuff like Dragon Age or anything else trying to recapture the glory days of CRPG's.

People have spent the last 8 years or so talking about how Bioware is the savior of the western CRPG. (While completely ignoring the fact that CRPGs made in Europe and even Japan are more like the traditional CRPGs of old...)

The reason NeoGaf turned on Bioware is mostly because of Dragon Age 2 and to a much lesser extent ME2. Bioware's problem now is the problem bands have when they transition from one sound to another, maybe the new one is as good but existing fans *like* the old one.

There are people who want to play games like Dragon Age and that market generally is not served very well (especially if you like most of the press ignore European stuff), whereas the market for actiony games with light RPG elements is served to a much higher degree. Basically every game these days has "RPG elements."

[rk47]

As did I. I think I clocked over 250 hours in both Fallouts, while I finished Borderlands once and never looked back.

Lining up Headshots in VATS-Mode and seeing three heads explode in Slow Motion was certainly part of its charm. So I am not hating on VATS, I am hating the fact that turn- and squad-based RPG combat is on a hastry retreat because RPG developers want to broaden their base by including FPS gamers. What you usually get is a mediocre dumbed down RPG and a mediocre shooter with too much talky stuff mixed into one.

http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/The-Cool-Cam.aspx

    * Why are the planes flying backwards sometimes?
      Well, uhh, a little known thing about Nazi technology developed in World War I...
    * Why do the wings come off the plane whenever you fire the guns?
      Uhh, err...
    * Why does the plane bounce up and out of the earth's atmosphere when you crash into the ground?
      Umm, in high-speed collisions like that it's not totally unreasonable that a plane's velocity torque rotary girder viscosity...

[Velorath]

I think Mass Effect, Fallout 3/New Vegas, Vampire: Bloodlines, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution all strike a good mix between action and RPG, and I'd much prefer to play more of those kinds of games than stuff like Dragon Age or anything else trying to recapture the glory days of CRPG's.

People have spent the last 8 years or so talking about how Bioware is the savior of the western CRPG. (While completely ignoring the fact that CRPGs made in Europe and even Japan are more like the traditional CRPGs of old...)

The reason NeoGaf turned on Bioware is mostly because of Dragon Age 2 and to a much lesser extent ME2. Bioware's problem now is the problem bands have when they transition from one sound to another, maybe the new one is as good but existing fans *like* the old one.

There are people who want to play games like Dragon Age and that market generally is not served very well (especially if you like most of the press ignore European stuff), whereas the market for actiony games with light RPG elements is served to a much higher degree. Basically every game these days has "RPG elements."

I used to love old school crpgs (and jrpgs).  I'm just no longer of the mindset that they're the best way to represent what I loved about P&P RPG's.  I'm not going to say that Bioware is the savior of RPG's, but in my mind, all the devs who are moving away from the D&D school of mechanics are going in the right direction.  I also think that even some European stuff like the Witcher takes some cues from Bioware.

I understand people being upset over DA2, nevermind the fact that the first game spent an unreasonably long time in development, and there was no way any follow-up was going to match it.  The backlash towards ME2 is a little more petty given that it was GAF's GOTY, and it was only long after the fact that the groupthink there now says that it sucks.

[Ironwood]

Can anyone summarise the problems with ME2 ?  I played it and thought it was sublime.

[lamaros]

I was too much more fun than ME1.

[Merusk]

Can anyone summarise the problems with ME2 ?  I played it and thought it was sublime.

It wasn't "Fiddly" enough and "Dumbed-down" too many things for the grognards.

Removal of armor types, removal of extra weapons (even though you never fucking used 90% of them) and streamlining of ability leveling.   

Complaints about story revolve around "the entire game is focused on the endgame."  There's not enough (or any) side-quests or missions that let you wander for hours and hours while ignoring the main storyline.

[rk47]

Huh, I thought it was too much side quest, allowing you to ignore the main storyline long enough for everyone to be prepared which removed any sort of tension in the storyline.
Goddamn biowhores. They don't know what they want.

[Ironwood]

Ok, I'm up to date and onboard now :

Those are fucking retarded complaints.  They need to shut the fuck up.

[Maledict]

I still think the in terms of actual *roleplaying* ME2 is one of the best RPGs made after Torment. It does a better job than practically any other game of putting in you the role of Commander Sepherd and allowing you to act out that role. Just re-reading that thread and the way people talk about 'their sherpherd' goes well beyond characterisations of most other games.

[NiX]

Huh, I thought it was too much side quest, allowing you to ignore the main storyline long enough for everyone to be prepared which removed any sort of tension in the storyline.
Goddamn biowhores. They don't know what they want.

Age old problem of expectations exceeding the actual execution. The hype train does it every time, but it sells shit loads of copies, so it'll never change.

[tmp]

I still think the in terms of actual *roleplaying* ME2 is one of the best RPGs made after Torment. It does a better job than practically any other game of putting in you the role of Commander Sepherd and allowing you to act out that role. Just re-reading that thread and the way people talk about 'their sherpherd' goes well beyond characterisations of most other games.

I think the amount of characterization people manage to invent/put into the character has little to do with the quality of the game, and much more with people's ability to come up with stuff that fleshes out what's otherwise largely still just making choices between "do you gently pet the kitten, or give it an assfuck".

As for the changes in RPGs... while the ones that put stress on the action component can be ok, i'm not too fond of it quickly becoming the only way these games (the AAA titles, at least) are being made, which seems to be the case. Because getting the focus moved from skills od character i'm supposed to roleplay to my own, that sometimes feels too much like it really misses the point of entire experience.

[HaemishM]

Ok, I'm up to date and onboard now :

Those are fucking retarded complaints.  They need to shut the fuck up.

Yeah, this. I had some minor irritation with the streamlined weapons and character progression systems, but it still blew ME1 out of the water. It was also miles far and away better than something like Final Fantasy XIII. Persona 3 may be the only JRPG I've played that was better than ME2.

[Merusk]

The only legitimate complaint I have where ME2 was a step-backwards vs ME1 was the removal of the Mako exploration in favor of fucking surveying.

I actually enjoyed the Mako and wandering the planets. It was at least entertaining even if the vehicle had a tendency to control like an oil tanker filled with lead.   It also didn't consist of hours of holding right-click and staring at a sine wave as you ponderously swept your mouse over a globe.

[HaemishM]

I hated both the Mako and the surveying stuff, but neither was so bad that it diminished the game in my eyes.

[Reg]

I found surveying so dreary that I used a save game editor to cheat myself all the resources I needed.

[lamaros]

Compared to ME1 ME2 was better in nearly every way.

Compared to RPGs are a genre? Yeah nah.

[tmp]

The main reason ME2 left me lukewarm was how most of the game revolved around playing the babysitter-slash-shrink for the supposed most speshial speshialists in the entire galaxy half of them you've only just met; the activity which was entirely optional and yet if you did choose to skip it you're left with few shooty bits that could be probably completed in under couple hours. Combine that with second-grade villains filling in for the absent main threat, and the whole thing felt just... shallow and hollow, i guess.

The inane minigames and shit they added to fill the holes left after the "streamlining" done with a hacksaw didn't help, too.

[Sjofn]

I hated both the Mako and the surveying stuff, but neither was so bad that it diminished the game in my eyes.

That's mostly my stance as well. Although sometimes the Mako was so terrible, it wrapped around to hilarious and became sort of fun. Surveying was just weird busywork.


EDIT: Also I just ... don't get the complaints about the whole "do shit for your crew so they're super loyal and utterly commited to the cause" thing. It makes more goddamn sense than "I'm going to drive around in the Mako doing nothing whatsoever," or "do shit for people not even on your crew, just because they asked."

[Ratman_tf]

Can anyone summarise the problems with ME2 ?  I played it and thought it was sublime.

I liked ME2, but it was linear as fuck. I'm honestley  expecting ME3 to resemble a rail shooter with rpg "elements".

[Ratman_tf]

The only legitimate complaint I have where ME2 was a step-backwards vs ME1 was the removal of the Mako exploration in favor of fucking surveying.

I actually enjoyed the Mako and wandering the planets. It was at least entertaining even if the vehicle had a tendency to control like an oil tanker filled with lead.   It also didn't consist of hours of holding right-click and staring at a sine wave as you ponderously swept your mouse over a globe.

The Mako sequences reminded me of Starflight. I was sadf when, instead of fixing, expanding and improving the Mako style exploration, they replaced it with the lame scanning minigame. The only good thing about the scanning was this little easter egg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-CDNLYZ0zA

[UnSub]

I completely appreciated ME2 replacing the hacking minigame versus ME1's button pressing thing.

I also appreciated less equipment in ME2, because ME1 was hilariously bad for not only giving the character hundreds of guns, but the naming system saw guns that sounded more advanced actually be horribly weaker.

However, ME1 did have a tighter storyline. ME2 was very much a, "We have to rush to save the galaxy! ... but first, let's sort out my father issues." And surveying sucked.

[tmp]

EDIT: Also I just ... don't get the complaints about the whole "do shit for your crew so they're super loyal and utterly commited to the cause" thing. It makes more goddamn sense than "I'm going to drive around in the Mako doing nothing whatsoever," or "do shit for people not even on your crew, just because they asked."

To me it makes no goddamn sense that people who #1 can't be loyal and commited to begin with and #2 become utterly loyal and commited to a total stranger who spends half an hour dealing with their little mental hangup ... are presented as "the best the entire galaxy has to offer", and that it's, like, major part of the game.

Yes, ME too had pointless side stuff where you could drive around and shoot kittens down from trees, but those were secondary and relatively brief if you chose to bother with them at all (and you really didn't have to) Hence putting that sort of activities in the spotlight in the sequel and telling me "there will be dramatic consequences if you don't participate." (and having these 'dramatic consequences' translate to "there isn't really much of game for you to play") is not an improvement to me, but the opposite.

[Tannhauser]

Just think of it as 'Magnificent Seven' in space.  Would you doubt Charles Bronson's loyalty?  Hell no, he's fucking Charles Bronson!  So you shouldn't question Jack's as well.

Charles Bronson.

[cironian]

I don't really get the grief the loyalty missions seem to cause... For one, if they bother you, you can save the galaxy just fine without them. The only difference is that you'll get a few heroic deaths in the final showdown, which to me is acceptable for the end of a story. (OK, you need 1 guy loyal if you want to have Shepard survive but I think that's it)

As for the gameplay being so very short without them, you still have the recruitment missions which as I remember are usually quite a bit longer than the corresponding loyalty ones and should be justified from an in-character perspective even if you feel you are in a hurry. So at most a third of the game's length is in those loyalty missions which you can do or skip. That doesn't seem too much of an imbalance in the main-content/sidequests ratio to me.

Also, ME2 is far from the only RPG that allows/encourages you to screw around at times when there should be time pressure from a story perspective. (Gee, I know I'm supposed to storm Sarevok's hideout right now, but as a player I know he's not going anywhere and there are still dungeons to loot and werewolves to fight.)

[Pezzle]

What bothered me about the loyalty mechanics was Shep having to run around the ship and ASK EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVERY SINGLE THING.  Makes no sense.

Here is any idea, give me an office.  They want to talk?  COME TO OFFICE.  Save me the trouble of careening around the ship.  Exploring the ship is great, but wtf. 

[Mosesandstick]

Captain and Ship's Counsellor 

[UnSub]

What bothered me about the loyalty mechanics was Shep having to run around the ship and ASK EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVERY SINGLE THING.  Makes no sense.

Here is any idea, give me an office.  They want to talk?  COME TO OFFICE.  Save me the trouble of careening around the ship.  Exploring the ship is great, but wtf. 

True, but the ME universe is one without any kind of recording software, so that Shepherd can't just play all the evidence that Reapers exist / are a problem to the Council based on what he's experienced.

It's also the universe where the Captain is responsible for scanning for mineral deposits one by one.

[Fordel]

How useful is recording in a world where all recordings can be undetectably Photoshopped?



That doesn't excuse the council of course, since they are still pulling fucking chunks of the reaper out of the damn station there still.

[Ingmar]

I think you mean chunks of "Reaper".

[Stormwaltz]

That doesn't excuse the council of course, since they are still pulling fucking chunks of the reaper out of the damn station there still.

"Ah yes, the 'Reaper.' You've been reading too many Von Danikenite tracts, Shepard. Think for a moment - is it more likely that Sovereign was an artifact of an ancient, quasi-mythical race of sapient starships... or that it was an unusually large geth dreadnought?"

[Ratman_tf]

That doesn't excuse the council of course, since they are still pulling fucking chunks of the reaper out of the damn station there still.

"Ah yes, the 'Reaper.' You've been reading too many Von Danikenite tracts, Shepard. Think for a moment - is it more likely that Sovereign was an artifact of an ancient, quasi-mythical race of sapient starships... or that it was an unusually large geth dreadnought?"

And an unusually large geth dreadnaout attacking the Citadel, smashing the fleet, (possibly) killing the council and taking out the flagship is somehow less of an issue?   Must not be, since no one mentions it after the attack.

[Stormwaltz]

Must not be, since no one mentions it after the attack.

When the Normandy was destroyed, it was looking for and mopping up what was thought to be the last geth forces in Citadel space. It wasn't the only ship doing so. And remember all the heightened security you deal with on the Citadel.

EDIT: The Council thinks of Sovereign as a one-off superweapon like the Destiny Ascension, and considers the military threat contained. They're more worried about infiltration and cyberwarfare by the time of ME2.

[Ratman_tf]

Must not be, since no one mentions it after the attack.

When the Normandy was destroyed, it was looking for and mopping up what was thought to be the last geth forces in Citadel space. It wasn't the only ship doing so. And remember all the heightened security you deal with on the Citadel.

EDIT: The Council thinks of Sovereign as a one-off superweapon like the Destiny Ascension, and considers the military threat contained. They're more worried about infiltration and cyberwarfare by the time of ME2.

While anything can be rationalized (mole people!) I find that kinda limp from a storytelling angle.

[Margalis]

EDIT: The Council thinks of Sovereign as a one-off superweapon like the Destiny Ascension, and considers the military threat contained. They're more worried about infiltration and cyberwarfare by the time of ME2.

Makes sense. After all if you made a devastating super weapon the last thing you'd do is build another one. 

[Stormwaltz]

It wasn't my decision to make, but the (non-)logic of the Council makes sense from my cynical worldview. The political leadership persuaded themselves that the problem had gone away, so they could return to the much more pressing issues of the next election and dealing with those arrogant humans.

"Mission Accomplished!"