Planetside 2

[Mrbloodworth]

Stagnation killed PS1, so did the shortsightedness of the original development team.  SWG and Wow didn't help much.

[01101010]

PS1 is not an FPS.  It is a squad-based tactical war game with an FPS perspective.  As has been mentioned many times, the expansion ruined the game adding more battle area while player count had peaked, thereby shrinking battle sizes.  The combat mechanic was just fine.  It let good FPS guys beat bad ones (like me) but at least I had a few seconds to shoot back and I could actually help in a squad setting by being a medic/hacker/driver as well as infantry.

Yes, but he is focusing on the one onion layer (the fps mechanics) only which I still think he is wrong about, but still...

This game is going to end up BF/COD with a Planetside skin because that is the way every believes the game should behave and it will fade off just as fast as the next installment of BF or COD come out because the new shiny on the new installment means PS2:MWFclonelol is now dated - regardless of it's persistence or scale.

It's the same argument we have with how games have to stand out from WoW and be innovative and then turn around and crucify it for not working or employing something tried and tested in WoW.

[Malakili]

PS1 is not an FPS.  It is a squad-based tactical war game with an FPS perspective.  As has been mentioned many times, the expansion ruined the game adding more battle area while player count had peaked, thereby shrinking battle sizes.  The combat mechanic was just fine.  It let good FPS guys beat bad ones (like me) but at least I had a few seconds to shoot back and I could actually help in a squad setting by being a medic/hacker/driver as well as infantry.

You could make the same argument about World War 2 Online ( a game which I like a lot by the way), but most people would say the mechanics hold it back.  My point only being that no matter what you CALL it, people are going to want good gunplay and shooter mechanics, or they are going to leave, no matter what tactical or strategic elements they add.  If they are serious about the game out performing PS1, they need to make sure the core gameplay is snappy and fun.  That doesn't mean it needs to be CoD or even Battlefield, but its not something they can ignore.

[01101010]

PS1 is not an FPS.  It is a squad-based tactical war game with an FPS perspective.  As has been mentioned many times, the expansion ruined the game adding more battle area while player count had peaked, thereby shrinking battle sizes.  The combat mechanic was just fine.  It let good FPS guys beat bad ones (like me) but at least I had a few seconds to shoot back and I could actually help in a squad setting by being a medic/hacker/driver as well as infantry.

You could make the same argument about World War 2 Online ( a game which I like a lot by the way), but most people would say the mechanics hold it back.  My point only being that no matter what you CALL it, people are going to want good gunplay and shooter mechanics, or they are going to leave, no matter what tactical or strategic elements they add.  If they are serious about the game out performing PS1, they need to make sure the core gameplay is snappy and fun.  That doesn't mean it needs to be CoD or even Battlefield, but its not something they can ignore.

Yes but that is EXACTLY what it means because the yard stick for snappy and fun is owned by the two or three shooters on the market. If you can't reproduce exactly what the going drug is on the market, you will be burned at the stake even if the game design warrants something different in style. Square pegs for round holes.

[shiznitz]

I think PS1 has a good shooting mechanic: blooming reticle on movement and repetitive fire.  That is the most important "reality" check in a shooter in my mind.  I also thought the stamina mechanic was really good.

[Ghambit]

A good example of this FPS argument is the success of 2142 vs. ARMA.  ARMA(2) is probably by far the greatest FPS ever made... if you're into simulation, yet 2142 still carried much higher numbers.  People who hang their hats on hitboxes, realism, etc. and then tout the Battefield series make me LoL.  It's an FPS arcade game, point blank.  Sooo, it really doesnt matter imo how much better PS2 may be to BF3 because if I wanted blatant FPS wtfpwnery I'd go play something else entirely.  What matters is the overall game.

To that end, PS2 needs to focus on being a semi-sandboxey tactical MMO.  Not an FPS.  It can be "snappy fun" and still achieve the former w/o worrying about hitboxes and headshots.

[Malakili]

Yes but that is EXACTLY what it means because the yard stick for snappy and fun is owned by the two or three shooters on the market. If you can't reproduce exactly what the going drug is on the market, you will be burned at the stake even if the game design warrants something different in style. Square pegs for round holes.

Possible games from which Planetside could draw inspiration from good shooter mechanics that are not based on the current generation of twitch shooters ala CoD:

Tribes
Quake 3
Team Fortress
Global Agenda
Unreal Tournament
Day of Defeat: Source

THose are just off the top of my head games I can think of that had good shooter mechanics, and they all vary (widely in some cases) in how they work specifically. In fact, that is just the point - there isn't just one way to do slick/responsive shooting mechanics. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Planetside is of the tribes line of games. I would say GA, TF2, Tribes, Brink, ET:QW, Section 8 prejudice are of its style.

While BF, CoD, CS ( pick one ) are a different type.

[Speedy Cerviche]

The point is, by any measure PS1 had laughably bad mechanics, amongst contemporaries and even predecessors. Seems like a strong aura of fanboism here that can't admit to this, or attempts to excuse it by potraying it as a fine wine the unwashed masses could not appreciate and instead went back to Battlefield to pew pew it up.

I really like the comparison to Arma2 vs Battlefield, PS1 is nowhere near as good as Arma2, nowhere near the depth of simulation or teamplay. That is apples & oranges because Arma2 is trying to be a sophisticated simulation (operation flashpoint, WW2OL), battlefield is trying to be a combined arms action FPS that's slightly slower and less twitchy than COD/CS/Quake. PS1 was trying to compete with BF1942 by being a sci-fi version with a bigass persistant world. Well it failed cuz it had crappier mechanics, crappier maps, bad physics, worse graphics, etc. Oh and wanted lots more money too for the priviledge of playing that worse game.

I

[Ghambit]

Tbh I had more fun playing PS1 than I did playing 1942 as there was simply just more in the game overall. (shrug)  I ended up skipping over 1942 and did hardcore GhostRecon, JointOps, etc.  The caveat being I had a tactically devoted gaming community to pull it off.... y'know, the kinda guys that get pissed if you dont stay in formation, pick the right kit, etc.   1942 was just run around and take out your daily frustrations on people with superior twitch.  You could beat them with group tactics but that would just chase off the masses. Everyone else was basically just cannon fodder, and it was only fun when we had organized scrims with modded maps and total conversions (reality mods, etc.).  And if we were gonna go that far, we'd just use an entirely different platform anyways.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't agree with much of what you have said. Planetside was nothing like battlefield 1942, even in intent, style or any other measurement. Planetside is a direct descendant of tribes ( look it up ).  For the time, and its scope, there was nothing wrong with its shooter mechanics, combined with land and air vehicles its NOTHING like the battlefield series. It also did not "fail", it was one of the first MMOFPS and is still running to this day.

Personally, I break down the different flavors like this:

Team based objective shooters.
GA, TF2, Tribes, Brink, ET:QW, Section 8 prejudice, Bf:Hero's, LFD, WW2OL, Even AA.

"Playing alone together" shooters:
BF, CoD, CS, Wolfenstein MP ETC..

Arcade arena style frag fests:
Doom, Quake, Unreal

One of the big differences for me, are TTK, team play, objective based. Two of those categories only really focus on kills, objectives are secondary to one, and the arcade style does not have any at all. The other places almost zero importance kills, and and focus very much on interdependence on others.

In a good number of ways, the most popular shooters follow the same issues and trend of MMO's, less and less dependence on others or team-play. Playing alone together.They cater to the soloist, where the others cater to or even require team-play and interdependence.

I do somewhat agree that the shooting Mechanic in PS was a bit loose, but that's mostly comes from is need of combined arms and its unique feature of triple digit combatants ( On 56k ) on foot, in the air, or driving on the ground, it is NOT CS or BF in that you can rambo the entire map as ling as you have initiative.

Planetside stabilized quickly to it average player base size due to stagnation, this also included the ability to provide updates to issues that came about and additions to it to expand or keep it fresh.

[Mrbloodworth]

New images:

[DLRiley]

PS1 is not an FPS.  It is a squad-based tactical war game with an FPS perspective.  As has been mentioned many times, the expansion ruined the game adding more battle area while player count had peaked, thereby shrinking battle sizes.  The combat mechanic was just fine.  It let good FPS guys beat bad ones (like me) but at least I had a few seconds to shoot back and I could actually help in a squad setting by being a medic/hacker/driver as well as infantry.

You could make the same argument about World War 2 Online ( a game which I like a lot by the way), but most people would say the mechanics hold it back.  My point only being that no matter what you CALL it, people are going to want good gunplay and shooter mechanics, or they are going to leave, no matter what tactical or strategic elements they add.  If they are serious about the game out performing PS1, they need to make sure the core gameplay is snappy and fun.  That doesn't mean it needs to be CoD or even Battlefield, but its not something they can ignore.

Yes but that is EXACTLY what it means because the yard stick for snappy and fun is owned by the two or three shooters on the market. If you can't reproduce exactly what the going drug is on the market, you will be burned at the stake even if the game design warrants something different in style. Square pegs for round holes.

TF2 says hi.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Yeah, TF2 is up there as another example of a game that has highly polished mechanics that PS2 will be compared to quality-wise, although it will be a bit older than the latest COD/BF which are being released this year.

[01101010]

[DLRiley]

TF2 is the only first person shooter with no nads limited head shots, and 1 gun that shoots repeated rounds straight and is called one of the best first person shooters in our decade. A game with ubers and  shovels is one of the benchmarks we use to judge first person shooters! Either the guys at valve are gods or innovating the genre is possible. Hell its not about innovating its about making the genre your own something that ps1 didnt do and something ps2 will have to do otherwise it will get the same response the first one did "why am I not playing battlefield?"

[Sky]

1. DICE didn't make a server browser for SOE.
2. I don't have to waste time looking for a server with people on it/decent ping. I just log in and go.
3. Anti-cheat and admins on full time staff, though I'll admit the dubiousness of their effect.

Just a couple off the top. Sure, it's got to be fun, but playing standard shooters is a pile of shit experience from a lobby standpoint. May not be a big deal to some, but if I have a half-hour to jump into a shooter, I don't want to waste half of it just looking for a server.

[DLRiley]

Enter TF2-filters servers based on where friends are-enter game

[Sky]

Oops, forgot who I was replying to. My bad.

[Furiously]

I'm guessing planetside 2 will have hats.

[01101010]

I'm guessing planetside 2 will have hats.

Well it is what seems to get the kids playing these days ...  Hell with everything else

[UnSub]

The official F13 PS2 guild should be named Hat Country.

[Dtrain]

The point is, by any measure IMO PS1 had laughably bad mechanics, amongst contemporaries and even predecessors.

FIFY

Some folks hated the "mushiness" of the client-side prediction, while the other aspects of the game may not have been enough to win them over. I don't consider those mechanics "laughably bad," especially for a shooter giving an unprecedented level of scale while still allowing access to users on dial-up.

That having been said, 8 years later, here in 2011 land, I do hope they restrict the thing to broadband access.

[DLRiley]

First Person Shooter is a loaded term and comes with expectations, very very high ones. Generally if I am attracted to your game because I saw FPS first and MMO second, I expect a Good FPS and that is the general problem mmofps have in comparison to mmorpg. RPG is not a loaded term, some people expect zelda, others expect final fantasy (and we have divergence there) and even some expect pen and paper. MMorpg has always attracted the "mmo" audience looking for a virtual world, something most fps fans don't care about if it gets in the way of Good FPS. Planetside 1 wanted to stick passable fps features on a virtual world and got crickets.

[Slayerik]

Strangely, crickets that still chirp pretty loud. Many of my online gaming buddies consider it our favorite time in ANY MMO. It's just after 6 months, even with running with an incredible outfit, the poor design wore on us. There wouldn't be as much excitement about this release if PS 1 didn't do a lot right.

It is honestly the only MMO I care about buying in the next year or two. I'm tired of MMORPGs...and too old with too little time. Ok, maybe GW2 if it is as good as we hope it is.

[Lantyssa]

Strangely, crickets that still chirp pretty loud. Many of my online gaming buddies consider it our favorite time in ANY MMO. It's just after 6 months, even with running with an incredible outfit, the poor design wore on us. There wouldn't be as much excitement about this release if PS 1 didn't do a lot right.

It only takes one annoying cricket to keep you up at night...

[Malakili]

First Person Shooter is a loaded term and comes with expectations, very very high ones. Generally if I am attracted to your game because I saw FPS first and MMO second, I expect a Good FPS and that is the general problem mmofps have in comparison to mmorpg. RPG is not a loaded term, some people expect zelda, others expect final fantasy (and we have divergence there) and even some expect pen and paper. MMorpg has always attracted the "mmo" audience looking for a virtual world, something most fps fans don't care about if it gets in the way of Good FPS. Planetside 1 wanted to stick passable fps features on a virtual world and got crickets.

Except that is exactly wrong.  The MMORPGs that have been decently popular have nuked the virtual world at every turn in favor of allowing people to have better "sessions," a word I use deliberately because we consider most popular FPS games to be "session based" shooters.  Virtual Worlds have never ever been very popular. 

The mechanics side of it is another issue altogether.  WoW has snappy responsive mechanics, and people like that.  We've talked about it on these boards a million times.  LOTRO, WAR, etc, didn't come close to matching WoW on this front.

At the end of the day, people want to log into a game and have fun. Whether its a virtual world that changed the thing they were planning on enjoying, or muddy combat mechanics doesn't particularly matter.  Very few people are going to sacrifice something they like (like being able to log in and play right away with no fuss, or smooth shooter mechanics) when other games on the market offer it.

[01101010]

Strangely, crickets that still chirp pretty loud. Many of my online gaming buddies consider it our favorite time in ANY MMO. It's just after 6 months, even with running with an incredible outfit, the poor design wore on us. There wouldn't be as much excitement about this release if PS 1 didn't do a lot right.

It is honestly the only MMO I care about buying in the next year or two. I'm tired of MMORPGs...and too old with too little time. Ok, maybe GW2 if it is as good as we hope it is.

This is damn near identical to my own outlook...though I would also add in the fact that SOE all but mothballed any further development after that tragedy known as Aftershock. Some guys left our outfit early, but the core people, about 15 or so still logged in from beta till Aftershock and then it was a pretty drastic and immediate decline. Mechanics can be endured given the scope of the game, you may not like them but they come with the conditions of the game.

[Mrbloodworth]

They brought back the original music guy Don ferrone, two demo tracks were made with a selection of music bits like the main menu, the Vanu, and combat background.


New_Planetside_Demo1_donferrone.mov

New Planetside_Demo2.mov

[01101010]

They brought back the original music guy Don ferrone, two demo tracks were made with a selection of music bits like the main menu, the Vanu, and combat background.


New_Planetside_Demo1_donferrone.mov

New Planetside_Demo2.mov

Never even was aware PS had music considering that is usually the first thing I kill when starting a new game. I think WoW is the only one that I left it on, and really only in Ashenvale 

[Mrbloodworth]

The music is rather iconic to me, I didn't turn it OFF, but I did turn it down.

[Slayerik]

The music is rather iconic to me, I didn't turn it OFF, but I did turn it down.

I did the same.

[Ratman_tf]

They brought back the original music guy Don ferrone, two demo tracks were made with a selection of music bits like the main menu, the Vanu, and combat background.


New_Planetside_Demo1_donferrone.mov

New Planetside_Demo2.mov

This pleases me greatly.

[Speedy Cerviche]

But will their musical score be competitive with BF3 on a mechanical level?

[Mrbloodworth]

lol.

I think the "opening/menu" theme is my fav so far. There are lots of great hints at the old tracks/sounds in it.